Is our belief in who Jesus is, necessary for salvation

[mutzrein]

Jesus was a little bit more than just that, though I disagree. God said in the OT "My glory I shall not give to another." He certainly has exalted Jesus so high up that we worship him, and given him unsurpassed glory in heaven, did God create an idol for us to lead us astray? Hardly, Jesus' glory is equal to the Father's glory, and they both are one. Also through Jesus all things came into being, Jesus was not a crutch or "tool" God used to create the worlds, Jesus is God and began the Creative process as equally as the Father. I say that God cannot have kept his his word about not giving his glory to another if Jesus was not God, because Jesus is THE NAME that saves, what the name of the Lord did in the OT. And only some strange philosophy not unlike the Gnostics twisted theology would see Jesus as some "lesser diety" or even an angel who was initmately connected with God, and helped him in almost everything he does, yet was not God. God the Father would have put himself in a mega-bind if Jesus was anything less than diety because he commited all judgement over to the Son. If Jesus weren't God that would have been as bad as handing it over to Lucifer before he had fallen.

Just a few points to think over.

God Bless,

~Josh

Josh - where does it say that Jesus' glory is equal to the Father's glory?

And what is this mega-bind thing about? Jesus always did/does the will of the Father. Being obedient to, and therefore doing someone elses will, does not MAKE you the one that you obey. Jesus has given us (his body) authority also. And when we are obedient to his voice it brings glory to Him and His Father. And even though we are one with Christ this does not make us Christ.

 

[MarkT]

Jesus said he was ascending 'to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' John 20:17

Was Jesus God in the flesh? No. Did God become a man? Was Jesus fully man and fully God? Nope. I know it's the traditional view but it's wrong. Fully man and fully Christ is better. Was God manifest in the flesh? Did God become flesh? Nope. It seems like everyone is intent on glorifying the flesh and I think that way leads to idol worship and statues and praying to the dead. Didn't Jesus tell you that flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom? Didn't he die in the flesh? Wasn't he alive in the spirit? Why do you glorify the flesh?

I'll try to make this understandable. Christ, the Son of God was born into the world. He was born a man to serve God. That makes him a servant. He was the Son who brought the message to the tenants. That's us. We are tenants in our human form. We're literally souls inhabiting a physical body. He told us who our Father is.

What if I said the 'Son' was the 'image' God has of 'himself'? Does that sound right? We all have an image of ourselves that we try to communicate. Whether it's true or false, we all think we know ourselves. By choosing our words, we hope others will see us for who we are. To understand us. Let's say God had an image of himself that he wanted men to know. To the ancient Israelites, the image was the LORD, the Holy One of Israel. The image came from him to his people. He's always wanted us to know him. But we refuse. We refuse our Creator! So what did God do? He sent his Son, the image God has of himself, in our likeness. We know no one has ever seen or heard God. Jesus said so. It's true. But God sent us his Son, Jesus Christ, the Holy One of God to tell us what he was doing in heaven. He was preparing a kingdom for us and his Son is the 'door' to the kingdom and the words, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God', are the keys to the kingdom. God is a really friendly God. I love him so much I can hardly stand it. Come on in!

 

[Solo]

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. 18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. John 1:1-18



Was Jesus God in the flesh? Yes.
Did Jesus create all things? Yes.
Is Jesus the Light? Yes.
Who made the world, was in the world, and the world knew him not? Jesus.
Was Jesus the one that John cried about in the wilderness according to Isaiah 40:3? Yes.
Who was the one that John cried about in Isaiah 40:3? Jehovah God.

The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD (Jehovah), make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Isaiah 40:3


Did God become a man? Yes.

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 1 John 3:1-3

Is Jesus the Light? Yes.

5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. John 1:5-7

Was Jesus fully man and fully God? Yes.

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:5-11

Fully God
Isaiah 9:6; Matthew 11:27; Matthew 16:16; Mark 2:5-7; Luke 5:20-22; Luke 9:20; John 1:1; John 1:14; John 2:19; John 2:21; John 3:13; John 3:31; John 5:18; John 6:38; John 8:58; John 9:38; John 10:17; John 10:30; John 13:3; John 14:9; John 14:23; John 16:15; John 16:28; John 17:8; John 17:21-23; John 20:28; Romans 9:5; 1 Corinthians 10:3-4; 1 Corinthians 15:47; 1 Corinthians 18:4-6; 2 Corinthians 8:9; Philippians 2:5-11; Colossians 1:15-17, Colossians 1:19; Colossians 2:9; 1 Timothy 1:17; 1 Timothy 2:5; Titus 2:13; Hebrews 1:2-3; Hebrews 1:8-11; Hebrews 2:7; Hebrews 2:9; Hebrews 2:14; Hebrews 2:16; Hebrews 13:8; 1 John 5:20; Revelation 1:8; Revelation 1:17; Revelation 2:8; Revelation 3:14.

Fully human
Matthew 1:1, Matthew 1:18-25; Matthew 4:2; Matthew 26:38; Luke 1:26-38; Luke 9:58; Luke 22:44; John 1:14; John 11:33-35; John 19:28; John 19:34; Romans 9:5; 1 Corinthians 15:3; Galatians 4:4; Philippians 2:5-11; 1 Timothy 2:5; 1 Timothy 3:16; Hebrews 2:14-15, Hebrews 2:17-18; Hebrews 4:15; Hebrews 10:5; 1 Peter 2:24; 1 John 4:2; 2 John 7.

Was God manifest in the flesh? Yes.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Timothy 3:16

Did God become flesh? Yes.


Who are those that deny that Jesus is LORD, LORD being JEHOVAH GOD?
They are those who have not the Spirit of God dwelling within them.

1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. 2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. 3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. 4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 1 Corinthians 12:1-11

 

[mutzrein]

Oh dear me, I'm not a trinitarian but I confess it anyway - Jesus is Lord!

 

[Solo]

Oh dear me, I'm not a trinitarian but I confess it anyway - Jesus is Lord!

Now all you have to do is confess that JESUS is LORD JEHOVAH! and you will be there. Until then, the Holy Spirit is not dwelling within you according to the Scripture.

3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. 1 Corinthians 12:3

Jesus is Lord of Lords and King of Kings. That should give you a great big problem with your theology!

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. Revelation 19:11-16

There is only one Lord of Lords, and that is the LORD JEHOVAH. There is only one King of Kings, and that is the King LORD JESUS.

 

[Free]

It's against the law for a man to make himself God; to say he is God or equal to God. So basically you think the Jews were right. They should have stoned him. Basically you are in agreement with the Jews that Jesus broke the law because you think he said he was God. When did he say he was God? In those words!

Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one."
Joh 10:31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone him.
Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, "I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?"
Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God."
....
Joh 10:36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?

Joh 19:7 The Jews answered him, "We have a law, and according to that law he ought to die because he has made himself the Son of God."

Firstly, I never Jesus broke the Law. Secondly, I'll let the passages above speak for themselves as proof of my conclusion.

If you said God was in him, I would agree. If you said God was in his name or God was in his Word or God was in his light or God was in his image, I would agree. But saying Jesus was God in the flesh is wrong. The flesh died.

Saying that Jesus is God incarnate, God in human form, is quite correct. It is the only biblical view.

 

[mutzrein]

Now all you have to do is confess that JESUS is LORD JEHOVAH! and you will be there. Until then, the Holy Spirit is not dwelling within you according to the Scripture.

3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. 1 Corinthians 12:3

Jesus is Lord of Lords and King of Kings. That should give you a great big problem with your theology!

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. Revelation 19:11-16

There is only one Lord of Lords, and that is the LORD JEHOVAH. There is only one King of Kings, and that is the King LORD JESUS.

Solo - I don't need another man's interpretation of scripture to tell me whether or not I am born of the Spirit of God. I know it and so does my Lord, and so do many others who know me who are also born of the same spirit - whether they be trinitarians or no.

Any scripture that you quote has no problem in any whit for my theology. It is your interpretation which is the problem. Not mine of course but yours - and it really beats me why you have to continually ADD to scripture to try and make a point.

In any case yes, Jesus is king of kings and lord of lords. It is the position into which God, his father has exalted him.

 

[Solo]

Solo - I don't need another man's interpretation of scripture to tell me whether or not I am born of the Spirit of God. I know it and so does my Lord, and so do many others who know me who are also born of the same spirit - whether they be trinitarians or no.

Any scripture that you quote has no problem in any whit for my theology. It is your interpretation which is the problem. Not mine of course but yours - and it really beats me why you have to continually ADD to scripture to try and make a point.

In any case yes, Jesus is king of kings and lord of lords. It is the position into which God, his father has exalted him.

You are correct that you do not need another man's interpretation of Scripture to tell you whether you are born of the Spirit of God. You need the interpretation of the Holy Spirit to validate your position in Christ Jesus. ONce you have the Holy Spirit, that validation would give you the ability to proclaim that Jesus is LORD GOD JEHOVAH.

It is interesting that you do not require another man's interpretation of Scripture to tell you whether you are born of the Spirit of God or not; yet you use the argument that the interpretation of other men validate your position by knowing you. Interesting.

When you take the blinders off long enough to pray about your Salvation, and the meaning of the word LORD in the Old Testament and New Testament, you will be excited to know that God is available to shed light on the areas of your life that need correcting. God does this through His Scripture.

What word is used for the word Jehovah in the Scriptures? LORD.
What word is used to describe Jesus Christ in the Scripture? LORD.
What is the Greek word for LORD in the New Testament? Kurios.
What is the Greek word for JEHOVAH in the Old Testament Septuagint? Kurios.
Who's interpretation is flawed? All who believe anything else but that which is revealed by the Holy Spirit.

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 1 John 4:1-3

 

[mutzrein]

There are many who are born of the Spirit of God who bear witness to the same spirit that dwells with in me. And God is my witness for it is He who has redeemed and sealed me with His spirit - the spirit of promise.

 

[Imagican]

Solo,

I 'believe' that you KNOW that Mutz offers 'fruit of The Spirit'. In MANY ways The Spirit IS manifest in the wisdom and 'other' attributes so described in The Word OF The Spirit. What Mutz offered is that to 'those who live 'in The Spirit', there is LITTLE room for doubt of 'others' that so live 'as well'.

But there MUST be a 'different' spirit for those that would INSIST that others MUST follow 'their understanding' in order to produce 'fruit' OF The Spirit. Especially when their offerings are NOTHING but the meager understanding of man.

Philosophical meanderings of man pale in comparison to the WISDOM of God. Mythological explanations of the 'Roman' sort are NOTHING more than that.

Free, Solo, is it NOT the 'fruit' that one 'bares' that we ARE to discern THROUGH The Spirit? How ELSE are we to KNOW those that ARE our brothers and sisters IN Christ? It is NOT an EXACT 'belief' in a 'man-made' doctrine that distinguishes those that 'belong' to Christ, it IS the LOVE that they portray.

There WAS an example offered IN Christ that IS our example of What we ARE to BE. And this has NEVER been stated that we ARE a 'set of 'man-made' understanding. There is ONE universal understanding that is paramount to professing a 'true' indwelling of The Holy Spirit. And that IS an UNDERSTANDING of Love. ANYTHING else that 'gets in the way' does NOTHING but 'hinder' this 'thing' that we NEED to understand.

Man-made doctrine does LITTLE other than impede the LOVE that we have been commanded to exhibit. Denominations SEPARATE rather than unite. Anyone with the BASIC knowledge of such realizes without doubt that we were MEANT to be ONE in an UNDERSTANDING and sharing of Love. WAY too much emphasis on 'doctrine' makes it IMPOSSIBLE for us to concentrate on THAT which IS MOST IMPORTANT.

I have witnessed the 'name calling' and 'accusation' of those that INSIST that 'their way' is the ONLY WAY. Yet these most often exhibit LITTLE of that which is MOST important. We WILL be KNOWN by the 'fruit of The Spirit'. And WHAT exactly IS 'this fruit', my friends?

MEC

 

[MarkT]

Firstly, I never Jesus broke the Law. Secondly, I'll let the passages above speak for themselves as proof of my conclusion.

So you're not in agreement as to whether he broke the law or not but you do think he was making himself God. Doesn't make sense. The truth was in Jesus but the Jews didn't have the truth in them. They testified against him. How can you say they had any understanding of him? The Jews did not understand him. When they accused him of making himself God, he denied the charge. And yet you agree with the Jews who had no truth in them and you call on them as witnesses.

Let's say we were in a courtroom and you wanted to use their testimony.

You: 'I'd like to call Pharisee #1'

'Was Jesus making himself God or equal to God, in your opinion?'

Pharisee #1: 'Yes'

You: 'Your honor, we have the testimony of this Jew that Jesus said he was God. Even though Jesus said there was no truth in the Jews, I would submit that in this instance the Jews do have the truth in them. Jesus was making himself God. Jesus is God as we all know.

Prosecutor: You're honor, even though Jesus is God, we have to stone him for saying so.

You: But it's not right to stone God even if he is a man and it's against the law for a man to say he is God.

LOL

MarkT wrote:
If you said God was in him, I would agree. If you said God was in his name or God was in his Word or God was in his light or God was in his image, I would agree. But saying Jesus was God in the flesh is wrong. The flesh died.

Saying that Jesus is God incarnate, God in human form, is quite correct. It is the only biblical view.

If you're a Hindu maybe. The Bible tells us the Word was made flesh. I think the problem with the traditional view is that it can't reconcile the Word with the flesh. Being fully one and fully the other strikes me as being neither one or the other. I agree that you can make an argument for the Hindu/Trinity concept but I don't think it's that simple. The simple acquire folly as Proverbs 14:18 say.

I believe God revealed himself to us through his Word, who was the Christ, the Son of God. I think the Word of God was the God of Israel. God made him his Son. Being in human form, Jesus was the Christ. Christ died on the cross but the life that was in him couldn't die. God can't die. The Father, who is the true God, was in him. The Father raised him from the dead.

Just as we are in control of our words, God controls his Word. Our words come from and proceed from us. God's Word proceeded and came forth from God.

I'm not saying Jesus isn't God. God made him God. God made him the temple he could dwell in and a faithful high priest in the service of God. "We have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God." Hebrews 4:14 Paul tells us, "Although he was a Son, he learned obedience through what he suffered; and being made perfect he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchiz'edek." Hebrews 5:8

 

[MarkT]

God called them gods to whom the word of God came so in my understanding Jesus was saying he was the Word of God in the flesh, therefore he wasn't blaspheming.

 

[cyberjosh]

When they accused him of making himself God, he denied the charge.

No actually he slyly changed the subject, he didn't deny it. He said "Does is not say in your own law "ye are gods"? He changed the subject, and even the context of the verse he quotes was limited to a few specific evil rulers whom God was speaking to, who had the leadership quality of an elohim, which some scholars think was also used of a "judge" of Israel in the book of judges in Deborah's song (and also of Moses). They tried to upsurp his authority (the quality of being an elohim) and he turned it around on them to shame them.

~Josh

 

[Imagican]

Guys,

It's really not as 'complicated' as 'you' would have it.

Christ stated that the power that He displayed was NOT HIS OWN. He stated that the Father IS greater than He. He stated that He was SENT by the Father to do the Father's will. He stated that there were things that were NOT EVEN REVEALED TO HIM, known ONLY by The Father. He stated that the words that He offered were NOT HIS OWN, but GIVEN Him by The Father. The Father IS GOD.

For one to deny these statements is to profess Christ to be a 'liar'. And EVERY ONE of these statements CLEARLY shows that Christ is NOT God Himself. For the Father IS GOD. The Son is NOT GOD HIMSELF. Simply stating that Christ IS GOD negates the words out of His own mouth stating that He IS The Son of God. Not only the words out of His mouth, but the statements of the gospels pointing out the 'voice' saying, "This is MY beloved Son in whom '''I''' am well pleased'. To deny that Jesus IS The Son of God and IS God Himself is to deny the validity of the gospel.

One is CERTAINLY able to 'twist' scripture to suit their OWN means. But the words of Christ CANNOT be ignored or one is simply 'believing in a 'false Christ'. Either the words from His mouth WERE the 'TRUTH' or He was a 'fraud'.

You would choose to negate the words in FAVOR of a 'man-made' doctrine. WHY? Why is it SO difficult to simply ACCEPT what has been offered. WHY the NEED to accept a 'doctrine' made by men rather than ACCEPT the VERY WORDS of the one whom you profess to follow? Christ even STATED, "There is ONLY ONE THAT IS GOOD, and that IS God. Showing PLAINLY that there is a separation between Father and Son. They ARE ONE in respect to their PURPOSE in Love, but they are NOT the 'same entity'.

We are to PRAY to the Father IN THE NAME OF CHRIST. How much FREEDOM does one POSSIBLY think that they have to CHANGE what has been offered and turn it INTO what they CHOOSE? Christ gave us a PURE EXAMPLE of HOW we are to PRAY. To ADD to this or to TAKE away from this is to 'think' that one is able to do it THEIR way. Christ DID say that what ever is asked of God IN HIS, (Christ's name), would be delivered. But MANY seem to think that they can negate one thing in order to accept another. NO, IT MUST """FIT""" or it is of NONE EFFECT. You CANNOT have it BOTH ways. For to negate ONE THING in favor of another is to VOID the WHOLE PURPOSE. And this purpose IS AN UNDERSTANDING OF LOVE. There is NO ROOM for individual interpretation of WHAT THIS LOVE IS. It IS ONLY one THING. And ANYTHING ELSE is FALSE.

One man states scripture that we ARE to pray in the 'name' of Christ. So, I DO. One man states that we ARE able to worship Christ. So, I DO. the difference in their understanding and mine? They seem to 'think' that the ONLY way that these things CAN be done is to 'believe' that Jesus Christ IS God. WRONG. I AM able to worship Christ AS THE SON OF GOD. I AM able to pray in the 'name' of Jesus Christ AS THE SON OF GOD.

How HARD can it possibly be to 'put aside' the man-made doctrine of 'trinity' and simply accept what has been offered WITHOUT being able to UNDERSTAND COMPLETELY? For I have YET to encounter a 'trinitarian' that UNDERSTANDS what it IS that they believe. The difference? My understanding is NOT MAN MADE. My understanding IS that which HAS BEEN REVEALED. I need FOLLOW NO MAN in order to simply accept the Word. And the Word NEVER clearly states that Jesus IS God. To the contrary. Christ states over and over that He was SENT by HIS FATHER. That making Him THE SON OF GOD. Which He ALSO states OVER AND OVER again.

MEC

 

[MarkT]

Cybershark

Of a truth I would say he was explaining the law to them, saying it was not blasphemy to say, "I am the Son of God"; which is what he was saying. And God did call him God in the sense the prophets were called 'gods'. Of the Son he says, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever." Hebrews 1:8 So I'm not saying God didn't anoint him, as it says, "God, thy God has anointed thee" Hebrews 1:9 I'm saying he was the 'first born', as it says, 'when he brings the first born into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him." Hebrews 1:6

The question of whether he was making himself God or not is moot. He wasn't blaspheming. I think that is the point. I hope you understand in a way I agree that he was God in the flesh because he was the LORD, the name of God who, for a time, was made lower than the angels. He had glory with the Father in the beginning, as he said, "glorify thou me in thy own presence with the glory which I had with thee before the world was made." John 17:5

It depends on what is in our mind when we write. If Christ, then we are in the light, being lead by the Spirit.

I think if the Trinitarians keep to the 'second person' concept? .... but I don't know. They have such a hard time understanding and they build no understanding. Anything that doesn't come by the words of God will be burned up. I hope you understand that we shouldn't mix in any leaven that came from the Pharisees or any leaven that comes from the scholars. Mt. 16:11 A little leaven leavens the whole lump. Ga. 5:9

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Did God become a man?

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

 

[mutzrein]

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Yes of course God was 'manifest' in the flesh. But this different to saying God was in the flesh.

Have you ever seen a demon possessed person? I have and I have seen the manifestation of that demon in that person. Does that make the demon, flesh? No of course not.

There are many who manifest ungodliness. Does that make them satan? And there are many that manifest the attributes of God. Does that make them God? Come now.

 

[Imagican]

There ya go mate!!!

Now THAT'S what I'm talkin' about. It IS exactly THAT.

I find it difficult to believe that the example of Christ's prayers are ignored as well. We have evidence that there were TIMES that Christ was ALONE in prayer. WHO do you suppose Christ was praying TO? When we consider the prayers that we DO KNOW about. The ones that are recorded we PLAINLY see that He was praying TO The Father, GOD.

Do you 'suppose' that God in 'the flesh' would NEED to pray to God that IS Spirit? It becomes OBVIOUS that the interpretation of 'God in the flesh' has been 'mis-interpreted. For IF Jesus Christ WERE God in the flesh, LITERALLY, then of WHAT purpose could it serve to 'pray to oneself', in essence?

Part of Christ WAS God, and Part of Christ WAS man. We KNOW that God IS Spirit. So it becomes apparent that The Spirit of God dwelt within Christ, the man. And there is MUCH indication that Christ pre-existed BEFORE His 'taking on the flesh'. And EVERY indication is that He was The Son in heaven as well as The Son on Earth. The ONLY begotten of God, The Father. And this is not 'ONLY' referenced to His BODILY FORM, but is INDICATED that He was BEGOTTEN OF GOD PERIOD.

To 'believe' that Christ IS God is to 'believe' that there are MORE THAN ONE GOD. For what is the meaning of 'let US........In Our....... These types of statements would necessitate TWO Gods or MORE. Yet EVERY statement offered by prophets, apostles, etc,,,,,STATE that there is ONLY ONE GOD.

Why is it SO difficult to 'believe' that Christ can coexist with God WITHOUT 'BEING' God Himself? Because to 'believe' this would be to negate the traditions STARTED by the CC. Even those that were a MAJOR part of the 'tradition' that was carried over into the Protestant denominations.

Guys, are you aware that there was a 'time' that the church taught that the earth was the CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE? They WERE WRONG. They taught that the 'earth was FLAT'. They were WRONG. They have been MISTAKEN about MANY things. What possible REASON would one have to deny that they could have been 'DEAD WRONG' about 'trinity' as well? Seeing that it was 'something' VERY familiar to those that introduced it into Christianity, what REASON could one POSSIBLY come up with to 'simply follow' this tradition when there is SO much concerning it that is CONTRARY to the Word?

And LOOK at the MOST DANGEROUS part of it; It tries to 'pretend' that one MUST accept it in order to 'be saved'. Huh? Funny, but this is NOT in the Bible. This was NEVER taught by the apostles and Christ NEVER stated that one MUST accept a 'trinity' in order to receive forgiveness. Yet this doctrine DEMANDS that one accept it in order to be a 'part' of 'this PARTICULAR BODY'. Strange indeed. For upon my acceptance of Christ into my heart I HAD NO IDEA WHAT 'trinity' was. Guess what folks, God LOVES me ANYWAY. Christ KNOWS me ANYWAY. Yet I have witnessed those that would, (IF THEY COULD), DENY my relationship with God through His Son for the 'SAKE' of a 'man-made' doctrine.

Can't you even see the negativity offered in a 'belief' that "OTHERS' MUST worship EXACTLY as you. The inherent DANGER of allowing such a 'belief' to impede one's union with their brothers and sisters? And WHERE does the 'seeming' HATRED come from with MOST that defend this 'doctrine' so doggedly? JUDGING and ACCUSING their brothers and sisters of NOT being 'saved'. If not for the 'doctrine' itself, WHERE does this 'kind' of LOVE come from?

MEC

 

[Solo]

Yes of course God was 'manifest' in the flesh. But this different to saying God was in the flesh.

Have you ever seen a demon possessed person? I have and I have seen the manifestation of that demon in that person. Does that make the demon, flesh? No of course not.

There are many who manifest ungodliness. Does that make them satan? And there are many that manifest the attributes of God. Does that make them God? Come now.

Who's flesh did God possess in reference to Jesus Christ?

 

[mutzrein]

Who's flesh did God possess in reference to Jesus Christ?

I'm not sure what you mean.