Is our belief in who Jesus is, necessary for salvation

[Imagican]

Acts 2:36

36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Prepare yourselves folks! It get's DEEPER and DEEPER. Now I KNOW that there are GOING to be those that will 'twist' words as I offer them. Inevitable. For, as j has stated, there HAVE been those that HAVE PROVEN this through scipture SINCE the APOSTLES. The problem has NOT been with the PROOF, it has been with the ACCEPTANCE of the PROOF.

And j, those that you mentioned DID prove it to THEMSELVES. It was MANY others that refused to SEE what they offered that made the difference. NOT THEIR LACK OF PROOF.

This is BUT the FIRST in a SERIES of PROOFS. I will post them ONE AT A TIME. Here is YOUR FIRST. Now, 'twist' away.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

We believe the man was the Christ, the Son of the living God. We believe he was crucified and God raised him from the dead and God put him on the throne of God and he sits at the right hand of God and he will return to judge the living and the dead. Our hope and our faith are in the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Mark,

I don't know where this puts your understanding of the DEITY of Christ, but thank you for your offering. This is EXACTLY what 'I' KNOW as well. For this IS what we have BEEN TOLD.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Romans 10:20

20But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

 

[Imagican]

Hebrews 1:4

4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

This scripture PLAINLY states that Christ WAS 'made'. And further states that it was THROUGH inheritance that He OBTAINED a 'more EXELLENT name than THEY, (the angels).

I know, Yada yada yada........... Right?

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Hebrews 1:6

6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Now alone, here is YOUR answer to the question of Christ being WORTHY of worship WITHOUT 'BEING' God Himself. Christ IS the 'firstbegotten' of God. and God COMMANDED that His Son be WORSHIPED by ALL the angels.

And DON'T try to twist this one by stating that this is in reference to being 'born in the flesh'. For WHAT purpose would the REFERENCE to angels serve if this 'bringeth into the world' were ONLY referring to being 'born of the flesh'? The ANGELS are in HEAVEN, (another PART of the WORLD).

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Hebrews 2:7

1Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.

2For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;

3How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, (Jesus Christ), and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

4God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

5For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

6But one in a certain place testified, (this would be Satan), saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?

7Thou madest him, (man), a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

8Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

12Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

13And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

18For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.


I started to simply post the individual scripture from this chapter and then realized HOW IMPORTANT THE WHOLE CHAPTER IS. Therefore I posted it in length.

Here we SEE that, (from the previous post), FIRST Christ was 'made' BETTER than the angels. Here we SEE that PROOF that I stated previous; that the FIRST statement was NOT concerning the 'flesh', but HERE we have THAT; Christ being 'sent' to 'this EARTH'. Thus, being ORIGINALLY created ABOVE the angels, NOW, being made a bit LOWER than them. To come to this earth and suffer for our sins.

And PLEASE NOTE the first line of this paragraph. IT IS IMPORTANT.

Now, I KNOW that this is most likely VERY difficult understanding for those that INSIST that Jesus IS God. Tough stuff. Yet here we have CLEARLY a message that explains that God and Christ ARE separate entities. One, the Father, and the other, the SON. And that it was NOT God Himself that DIED for man, but HIS SON, through OBEDIENCE to His Father.

I ain't DONE yet.............

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Folks,

This is ONLY the 'beginning'. There is MUCH MUCH more that offers PROOF that Christ was MADE the Son of God; here on this EARTH when Christ took on the 'flesh' and PREVIOUS to the 'creation' of MAN. For Christ DID exist in heaven PREVIOUS to the 'creation' of man. HE WAS INSTRUMENTAL in this 'creation'. But, He TOO IS A CREATION OF GOD, THE FATHER. For there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD. That He chose to 'create' one of 'like power' is HIS choosing NOT OURS. That God CHOSE to 'create' a Son is NOT of OUR doing but HIS. And WHATEVER power He 'gave' to His Son is NOT for US to question. ONLY ours to ACCEPT as offered.

You know, there is MUCH likelyhood that PART of the REASON for the fall of Satan was jealousy. Ever thought of this? Probably not. For to believe that Christ IS God is to ignore this possibility. Satan could VERY WELL have been jealous of God's Son and therefore willing to LOOSE ALL to elevate himself; not only ABOVE Christ, but attempting to elevate himself above his VERY Creator. Why? We have evidence that Satan was the MOST gifted of ALL the angels. In skill and beauty. Imagine what a 'hit' it was to then be subject to; not only the Father of ALL creation, but to His Son as well.

We have seen indication that the cause of the 'fall' in the garden was Eve's enviousness of the relationship between God and Adam. For WHY else were we given the information concerning the WAY in which Satan decieved her? He told her what she WANTED to hear in order to devise the 'fall'. And what did he tell her? That NOT ONLY would she be 'equal' with Adam by eating the fruit, but she would be elevated to the place of God Himself. IRRESISTABLE to one who was envious of the position of Adam. Wanting HIS relationship to BE HERS.

Is this NOT exactly what COULD have happened in heaven. Satan being envious of The Son's position to the point that he REBELLED against his OWN creator? Choosing to be the 'prince' of darkness rather than an angel in heaven? For once the Son was created, HE was the 'prince' of heaven. Too much for Satan to bear. And NOT ONLY Satan, but MANY of the angels as well.

Speculation? Of course. But offered through understanding and pershaps more intuitive than you might give credit. And maybe NOT just intuitive, but a bit MORE inspired than 'thought up'. For I have done much PRAYER in regards to these matters. Hoping to understand the REASONS for the things which we have been given. The HOW of it and the WHY of it. Asking questions that perhaps many have never even 'thought' of.

We KNOW that Chirst witnessed the FALL of Satan. But there is NO mention of Christ witnessing the 'creation' of Satan. A prime indication that ONE was created BEFORE the other. Now, guess which was 'created' FIRST?

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Ever wonder WHY we are told to 'cast' off the 'old man' and put on the 'new'?

 

[Guest]

Acts 2:36

36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Prepare yourselves folks! It get's DEEPER and DEEPER. Now I KNOW that there are GOING to be those that will 'twist' words as I offer them. Inevitable. For, as j has stated, there HAVE been those that HAVE PROVEN this through scipture SINCE the APOSTLES. The problem has NOT been with the PROOF, it has been with the ACCEPTANCE of the PROOF.

And j, those that you mentioned DID prove it to THEMSELVES. It was MANY others that refused to SEE what they offered that made the difference. NOT THEIR LACK OF PROOF.

This is BUT the FIRST in a SERIES of PROOFS. I will post them ONE AT A TIME. Here is YOUR FIRST. Now, 'twist' away.

MEC

You are kidding, right?

This is not talking about Jesus being 'created' - but being made Lord and Christ!

"Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ - this Jesus whom you crucified."
Acts 2:36 (NASB)

 

[Guest]

MEC,

I look forward to your specific answers to the questions I posed earlier.

Thank you in advance.

 

[Solo]

Jesus is LORD JEHOVAH according to the Scriptures, or do you believe in two LORDS?

Yes I certainly do. Have you not read . . .

"Then Jesus said to them, "How is it that they say the Christ is the Son of David? David himself declares in the Book of Psalms: " 'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet." 'David calls him 'Lord.' How then can he be his son?"s son?"

Which one of your Lords is the Lord of Lords and King of Kings? I take it that you place the Lord Jesus Christ above the Heavenly Father.

Should we believe someone who says that there are two Lords, even when Jesus teaches that there is only ONE LORD in His explanation of the greatest commandment.

29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. Mark 12:29-30

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: Deuteronomy 6:4

And Paul teaches that there is only ONE LORD and only ONE GOD.

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Ephesians 4:4-6

Zechariah prophesies that LORD JEHOVAH GOD will come and stand on the Mount of Olives, and that the LORD JEHOVAH GOD will come with all of the saints, and the LORD JEHOVAH GOD will be the KING over all the earth, and HE will be the ONE LORD.

1 Behold, the day of the LORD [JEHOVAH] cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the LORD [JEHOVAH] go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD [JEHOVAH] my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. 6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD [JEHOVAH], not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. 8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9 And the LORD [JEHOVAH] shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD [JEHOVAH], and his name one. Zechariah 14:1-9

 

[Solo]

We believe the man was the Christ, the Son of the living God. We believe he was crucified and God raised him from the dead and God put him on the throne of God and he sits at the right hand of God and he will return to judge the living and the dead. Our hope and our faith are in the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Mark,

I don't know where this puts your understanding of the DEITY of Christ, but thank you for your offering. This is EXACTLY what 'I' KNOW as well. For this IS what we have BEEN TOLD.

MEC

That is the easy part to understand that Jesus was the man called Christ, and is called the Son of God and that he was crucified historically and raised from the dead, etc. etc. etc.

But where you fail in your understanding is that portion which requires the Holy Spirit dwelling within to interpret the Scriptures. It is an easy thing to see Jesus as man; it is yet another to see Jesus as Jehovah God, even though the Scripture is plain throughout.

 

[Imagican]

1) Why did Christ accept worship?

2) Why did Christ refer to himself as "I AM"?

3) How Christ able to forgive sins?

4) Is Christ the only one like himself that was 'made' and how do you know?

If these were the questions to which you refer; let's start with number one....

Because Christ IS worthy of worship AS the Son of God.

The simple statement was;

Before Abraham was, I am. You mislead both yourself and others in the 'way' in which you asked this question. For, FIRST; Christ did NOT state; 'I AM' but "I am''. I'll wait and see if YOU can 'see' the difference. And He did NOT simply state; 'I am', He stated, "Before Abraham was, I am". BIG difference. I have ALREADY stated that PREVIOUS to the 'creation' of man, Christ DID exist in heaven. This IS the 'reason' that He made this statement. To SHOW that He WAS the Son of God; NOT ONLY in 'the flesh' but PRE-EXISTED in Spirit. HE IS THE SON OF GOD.

Christ is 'ABLE' to DO ANYTHING that God CHOOSES for Him to BE ABLE TO DO. The power that God has bestowed upon His Son is HIS DOING. We have NO WAY to discern EXACTLY what God 'DOES'. To even QUESTION God's choices in HOW He DOES things is to 'think' that WE are able to discern the choices of God is to attempt to 'usurp' HIS authority.

As FAR as we KNOW, YES, Christ is THE ONLY BEGOTTEN of God. The ONLY SON that has EVER been created and empowered AS such. IF there are 'others', we have certainly NOT been granted ANY information of such.

alone, the ONLY thing 'getting in the way' of YOUR understanding IS 'man-made' doctrine. IF you were to 'let it GO'. Start over with the 'new man' and 'let go of the old', these things that I 'point out' would become 'manifest' in your understanding. You wouldn't even NEED for 'someone ELSE' to offer this. It would be FREELY offered by God.

But, if you INSIST on 'hanging on' to that which is NOT prudent and following that which was 'created' in the carnal hearts and minds of men, you are 'bound' to their limited understanding as well as 'their fate'.

I am NOT here to ALTER ANYTHING. I am simply attempting to the BEST of my ability to offer TRUTH as stated in scripture and that which IS able to be discerned THROUGH the Spirit. All one NEED understand is the ABILITY to discern was IS The Spirit. For there ARE spirits MANY. The important thing is to be able to recognize the TRUE Spirit. Once this is accomplished, there is NO MORE ability for 'other spirits' to influence one into 'false understanding'.

alone, Do you BELIEVE what is written in The Word? Do you BELIEVE that The Word IS the inspired WORD OF GOD? If you can answer YES to these questions then the answers ARE THERE. But, one MUST enter into this understanding with the WILLINGNESS to 'accept' what is stated WITHOUT the desire to 'twist it' to one's OWN WILL. HOW? Through study and prayer. Or should I say, "Through PRAYER and study''. This is the ONLY way that you will EVER KNOW the 'truth'.

Example; How many times have you been 'TOLD' something and upon 'hearing it' you DID NOT understand it? You tried and tried but finally, even though you DID NOT understand it, you SIMPLY ACCEPTED IT? And with ENOUGH of this 'man-made' crap, how could one POSSIBLY understand the 'truth' when MUCH of what they have begun to BELIEVE is truth is actually NOTHING more than man-made crap?

There must FIRST be laid a proper FOUNDATION before one can 'BUILD' a successful and accurate 'doctrine'. MOST churches have chosen a 'man-made' foundation. One of sand or loose dirt that is UNABLE to substantially 'hold up' the doctrine that they so adamantly 'hang on to'. To NO avail when faced with the TRUTH that has been offered through Jesus Christ.

You shun the offering of Christ 'being' MADE. WhY? Preconceived belief TAUGHT to you by MAN. For if NOT, then WHO IS Jesus Christ. WHO WAS Jesus Christ. For you would offer that MADE does NOT signify 'creation' but 'a turning into' something 'different' than a 'previous form'. WHEN did Jesus 'become' Lord and Savior? Upon His DEATH? His resurrection? NO, upon HIS CREATION. Don't you realize that God IS immortal? TIMELESS? And for His PLAN of 'man' to become manifest there was MUCH that need BE. This was NOT some 'random' experiment of God. This was God GIVING to His Creation that which HE possessed. And MUCH NEEDED to be accomplished for this to 'take place'. ONE of the 'things' that NEEDED to be FIRST was the creation of His Son.

For we KNOW that the Son WAS responsible for MUCH of 'creation'. We have been GIVEN the information that Christ was 'created' FOR God. And that man was 'created' FOR Christ. To BRING ALL into ONE single 'family', (if you will). Time is NOT a matter of restraint for God. Time is NOTHING other than a 'series' of EVENTS. NOT 'when' as far as physical TIME, but when as concerning 'order of EVENTS'.

Christ was MADE Lord and Savior upon His 'creation'. That is WHEN He was MADE Lord and Savior. NOT AFTER, but BEFORE the 'time' that MANY would have it BE. But WHEN God 'created' Christ to DO what it was that MUST be done, at this POINT, at this PLACE in a series of events. WHEN Christ BECAME the Son of God, it was THEN that He was MADE Lord and Savior.

Christ SPECIFICALLY offers that ALL that He possesses was GIVEN Him BY THE FATHER. TRUE? Don't you get it? When were 'these THINGS' given Him? Upon His physical 'birth' on this planet? NO, upon His 'creation' AS THE SON, in HEAVEN. For Christ WAS the Lord of 'creation' PREVIOUS to His incarnation in the flesh. Christ WAS the Son from the MOMENT OF HIS CONCEPTION. And that was perhaps BILLIONS OF YEARS AGO.

PREVIOUS to the 'creation' of man, Christ WAS. So, pertaining to the understanding of man, Christ has ALWAYS been in reference to the creation of man. From BEGINNING to the END. FOREVER as pertains to 'man'.

Now, this is NOT what the churches would 'teach' you. I admit that there is MUCH confusion when we 'rely' on man to explain the 'workings' of God. It has not been an EASY thing for myself. Fortunately I had LITTLE preconceived understanding to 'get in the way'. My understanding has come from the Word, (Bible), and The Spirit. And MUCH of IT is continually refined.

I do NOT read 'books' offered by those that would TEACH me 'their' understanding. And don't think for one SECOND that I am UNAWARE of how ALL of this COULD be used to describe MY words as well as theirs. There is a 'difference' though. I KNOW that what I speak is 'truth' as revealed to me through scripture and The Word. Whereas MOST of those that would write volumes PROCLAIMING inspiration, MOST of what they would write is that which was 'taught' to them by men and their churches. THAT, my friend, IS the 'difference'.

You know, at one time, for one to 'speak out' as I, would bring a DEATH penalty from the 'men' that would have others follow THEM instead of God. God has seen FIT to destroy the powers that once ruled man's understanding in such a manner. Take advantage of it while you can. For in the NEAR future, once again, there WILL be 'men' that will 'take' away the ability to 'speak in truth' and insert instead THEIR UNDERSTANDING and their power to enforce this will cause that of the past to pale in comparison. For at the advent of the END of this generation, there will be suffering of such magnitude this EARTH has never KNOWN before. And MOST of the suffering WILL be 'man' inflicting 'his will' upon OTHER 'men'.

Not here to argue so much as to INFORM. Take it for what it's worth. I know that much of what I offer is 'hard to swallow'. It is NEVER a simple thing to admit to oneself that their understanding is 'tainted' or 'outright WRONG'. But without the ability to 'accept' that which IS truth, then one is doomed to follow in the footsteps of 'man' and his rebellion against that which IS righteousness and choose instead to fall in his own folly.

MEC

 

[Guest]

MEC - are you not suggesting that those of us on the forum that disagree with you, believe your doctrine - a doctrine taught by man?

 

[jgredline]

Acts 2:36

36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Prepare yourselves folks! It get's DEEPER and DEEPER. Now I KNOW that there are GOING to be those that will 'twist' words as I offer them. Inevitable. For, as j has stated, there HAVE been those that HAVE PROVEN this through scipture SINCE the APOSTLES. The problem has NOT been with the PROOF, it has been with the ACCEPTANCE of the PROOF.

And j, those that you mentioned DID prove it to THEMSELVES. It was MANY others that refused to SEE what they offered that made the difference. NOT THEIR LACK OF PROOF.

This is BUT the FIRST in a SERIES of PROOFS. I will post them ONE AT A TIME. Here is YOUR FIRST. Now, 'twist' away.

MEC

LOL

Like I said. I would be checking you for context, which I see ''Alonevoice'' has already done.....

So lets take a little bit closer look....Acts 2:36 1550TR
36 ασφαλως ουν γινωσκετω πας οικος ισραηλ οτι και κυριον και χριστον αυτον ο θεος εποιησεν τουτον τον ιησουν ον υμεις εσταυρωσατε

The Greek word that Luke used here εποιησεν / made in this context means to do. 2a to act rightly, do well. 2a1 to carry out, to execute. 2b to do a thing unto one. 2b1 to do to one. 2c with designation of time: to pass, spend. 2d to celebrate, keep. 2d1 to make ready, and so at the same time to institute, the celebration of the passover. 2e to perform: to a promise.
Strongs concordance

You talk about twisting words.... :-? .....

''IF'' Luke meant created, He would have used the Greek word ''εκτισεν''

In which case the Verse you quoted to support that Jesus was created would have read like this....

36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath created the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

or the Greek would have said

36 ασφαλως ουν γινωσκετω πας οικος ισραηλ οτι και κυριον και χριστον αυτον ο θεος ''εκτισεν'' τουτον τον ιησουν ον υμεις εσταυρωσατε

But Guess what...That is not what the English or the Greek says...

It says
36 ασφαλως ουν γινωσκετω πας οικος ισραηλ οτι και κυριον και χριστον αυτον ο θεος εποιησεν τουτον τον ιησουν ον υμεις εσταυρωσατε

 

[jgredline]

Before Abraham was, I am. You mislead both yourself and others in the 'way' in which you asked this question. For, FIRST; Christ did NOT state; 'I AM' but "I am''. I'll wait and see if YOU can 'see' the difference. And He did NOT simply state; 'I am', He stated, "Before Abraham was, I am". BIG difference. I have ALREADY stated that PREVIOUS to the 'creation' of man, Christ DID exist in heaven. This IS the 'reason' that He made this statement. To SHOW that He WAS the Son of God; NOT ONLY in 'the flesh' but PRE-EXISTED in Spirit. HE IS THE SON OF GOD.


MEC

OK Mec
Lets take a look at this verse...I have to do this quickly, because I am getting rebuked for doing this when I should be working, But I can't let it go....After all, I may as well make good use of my education even though you put me down for it....But hey, at times like this I am glad the Lord Jesus Christ has blessed me with it......


58 ειπεν αυτοις ο ιησους αμην αμην λεγω υμιν πριν αβρααμ γενεσθαι εγω ειμι

This is a clear reference to Jesus eternal pre-existence. Since this is an attribute of God alone, this scripture is an emphatic statement of Jesus deity. Yes Mec THE VERY SCRIPTURES that you are using is affirming Jesus deity.... The present tense of the verb tells us the eternal present of God’s eternity. “I AM†is also reminiscent of God’s name in Ex. 3:14 as you already know....

Now lets look a little closer.....

58 ειπεν αυτοις ο ιησους αμην αμην λεγω υμιν πριν αβρααμ γενεσθαι εγω ειμι

The pro noun ἐγώ /ego / I / ...precedes the verb εἰμί / eimi / AM.... Now lets put both words together in Greek.... ἐγώ εἰμί.... / ''ego eimi''...OK, Now say both those words together and you have Jesus saying he is the ''I AM''...the Jews Knew ''exactly'' what / who Jesus was calling himself... ''GOD'' which is why they proceeded to stone him.....I AM refers to ''His'' self-existence and eternality....

 

[Imagican]

j,

Boy, all that sounds, (and looks), Greek to me, (he he he).

All I have pointed out is that the scripture states that Christ was MADE Lord and Savior. That YOU would choose to turn it around into 'something else' is of none effect to me. I have already PLAINLY stated that this is EXACTLY what would be done with PLAIN words that have PLAIN meanings.

Ok, pre-eminence aside, WHO 'made' Christ LORD AND SAVIOR? By WHO'S actual DOING was this MADE possible? Was it Christ who 'made' HIMSELF our Lord and Savior?

MEC

 

[Imagican]

MEC - are you not suggesting that those of us on the forum that disagree with you, believe your doctrine - a doctrine taught by man?

I certainly AM a 'man'. And IF you believe that I offer NOTHING but thoughts and ideas of MY own, then OF course your view of what I offer would be considered to BE 'teachings of man'.

Look, believe what you will. But you CAN'T SAY that your were NOT given an opportunity to KNOW the TRUTH. Whether you accept it or ridicule it does NOT take away one tit of the 'truth'. Only in the minds and hearts of those that choose 'another truth'.

But, stick around, it's not over yet. I figured I would give opportunity to contest what I have offered so far before ADDING to it. Like I said, what has been offered 'so far' is ONLY the beginning.

MEC

 

[Guest]

I certainly AM a 'man'. And IF you believe that I offer NOTHING but thoughts and ideas of MY own, then OF course your view of what I offer would be considered to BE 'teachings of man'.

Look, believe what you will. But you CAN'T SAY that your were NOT given an opportunity to KNOW the TRUTH. Whether you accept it or ridicule it does NOT take away one tit of the 'truth'. Only in the minds and hearts of those that choose 'another truth'.

But, stick around, it's not over yet. I figured I would give opportunity to contest what I have offered so far before ADDING to it. Like I said, what has been offered 'so far' is ONLY the beginning.

MEC

To be honest, I hope there is more - because so far you have no provided much.

However, I am not holding my breathe if your use of Acts 2:36 is any indiciation of what is to come.

Acts 2:36 speaks to the position that Jesus is in - as Lord and Christ. Not that Jesus was a 'created' being like you and me.

I would suggest that your need to deny the Trinity has colored your intrepetation and understanding.

 

[Imagican]

Boy,

I notice NO ONE wants to deal with this one. You belittle what has already been offered yet take NO pains to even address it;

4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Let me 'break it down FOR you':

Christ, being MADE so MUCH 'better' than the angels. I 'think' this 'speaks for itself'. This says NOTHING concerning 'the flesh'. This is a GENERAL statement SAYING outright that Jesus was MADE. And NOT only does it speak of His CREATION, it goes on to EXPLAIN that it is THROUGH His inheritance, (being the Son, He inherited the deity that so many speak of; this being above the angels, FROM HIS FATHER), that this is SO.

Twist as one may, there is NO way to escape the 'truth'.

Now alone, PLEASE explain what this 'Being made' means if not CREATED. The angels are NOT the sons or daughters of God. The angels WERE 'made', or 'created' by God. So, what does this mean; made BETTER than the angels'? Made by WHO? What does MADE mean? And WHY would this be offered in ANY OTHER CONTEXT? And WHAT does inheritance mean in this scripture. Inherited WHAT from WHO?

Do you NOT see how difficult it is to maintain this; Jesus IS God? The ONLY way is to twist or 'ignore' much scripture that offers THE OPPOSITE.

And, like I said before. I have MUCH more. The only thing is that; as you or others will have a 'hard time' twisting this one, there are others that will be equally or MORE so. Can't wait to see what will be said about the rest. Later this evening. Let's give others the chance to 'catch up' and then we'll move on. But CERTAINLY feel FREE to step in at ANY time and 'explain away'.

MEC