Is our belief in who Jesus is, necessary for salvation

[jgredline]

Mark and Mutz

I noticed you guys ignored the scriptures I posted....Sure you can think what your going to think of me...I realize the truth here is very uncomfortable, especially for you Mutz since you started this thread...... I guess in the hopes of finding folks who agree with you and instead you found folks who have shared their testimonies as to who God is (Jesus) and further more these testimonies are inline with what scripture says....I make no opologies for sharing what the scripture clearly teaches....Challenge the scriptures I and others have posted.....and remember to keep them in context....

 

[Vic C.]

MarkT - There are some who I would describe as having a 'religious spirit'. When you say anything that is not in-line with what they believe is 'correct' doctrine, they try to put you in a box and align you with any cult that to them, has a similar belief. And as such you become marked as one who is a false teacher and one whose 'doctrine' disqualifies them from salvation....

Who is they? Please don't generalize. :-?

 

[mutzrein]

Who is they? Please don't generalize. :-?

I'm not generalising. 'They' are the ones who do what I have described above. There are people on this forum who have said all sorts of untrue things about me (and others) because our doctrine does not fit with what they believe is acceptable for salvation. They know who they are. :wink:

 

[mutzrein]

JG - I didn't start this thread to find anyone that agrees with me. As a matter of fact, as the poll stands now, no-one does. Who cares? That's not the point. A righteousness that comes by faith is.

So what scripture(s) in particular have I ignored?

 

[Imagican]

Mutz,

I didn't vote. I believe that I KNOW how you would. I do NOT 'completely' disagree with your choice. But you know me. I AM a 'little hard-nosed' about the subject. I would step to the NEXT extreme if I were to vote and therefor didn't for the sake of those that may take offense.

In other words. I believe that I could answer the poll for you. BUT, I would choose the NEXT choice in that there ARE some things that one MUST accept in order to accept the 'truth'. That the world would choose to ignore this or 'change it' is of NO effect in the ultimate outcome.

If one chooses to worship a 'false god' then they are in-line with the world. For that IS exactly what the world chooses whether this 'false god' is an actual entity or simply themselves. That IS the nature of the flesh since the fall in the garden.

With this said, I believe that it's quite possible for one to know what I 'would have' voted for.

And let me add this folks. There was a time when one WAS able to know the TRUTH without men 'instructing' them. For the rest, there WERE the prophets. And I can assure you that it IS the SAME now. That one need NO man-made doctrine in order to develope a PERSONAL relationship with God. He IS Our Father and loves and wishes for NOTHING more than for us to BE His children. A little secret, shhhhh, don't tell anyone...........It takes NO man-made theology for God to love us. If anything, man-made doctrine and theology MOST LIKELY 'gets in the way' of any TRUE relationship that one MIGHT have if they would simply open their hearts to God instead of relying on 'other people' to 'tell them' what they NEED to believe.

I have a Savior that loves ME enough to offer The Word of God so that I CAN KNOW the TRUTH. A Savior that left a 'comforter' behind so that I would NOT be LOST. That there ARE those that would attempt to 'take this away' or 'envy what has been offered and accepted' is NOT A SURPRISE for this has been 'the way' of man from the beginning of his rebelion against that which is Holy.

MEC

 

[MarkT]

Mark and Mutz

I noticed you guys ignored the scriptures I posted....Sure you can think what your going to think of me...I realize the truth here is very uncomfortable, especially for you Mutz since you started this thread...... I guess in the hopes of finding folks who agree with you and instead you found folks who have shared their testimonies as to who God is (Jesus) and further more these testimonies are inline with what scripture says....I make no opologies for sharing what the scripture clearly teaches....Challenge the scriptures I and others have posted.....and remember to keep them in context....

I think before we go on we should reconcile. Jesus said, 'Everyone who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment' Sorry if I caused you any offense my brother. The Lord has chastened me. I still think you're wrong. :D The devil has loaded me down to keep me away from you all for a while. I'll get back to you when I can, God willing. Just one thought. When we refer to the scriptures we are referring to the words of God that came to the prophets, so they are the sacred writings which we know as the Old Testament. The writings and testimonies of my brothers, the Apostles are like letters from home to me but as long as we understand each other, it shouldn't be a problem.

 

[AVBunyan]

Flogging a "dead" horse here - II Cor. 4:2, I Cor. 2:14 -

Unregenerate folk will never understand real spiritual truths - They can quote verses, debate, go to church, etc. but....they cannot understand or "see" spiritual truths.

I've given up discussing certain truths with folks that are most likely unregenerate - it is not redeeming the time.

My humble opinion? Stick with the gospel for that is where the power (is Rom. 1:16) and then if a person has his eyes opened then discuss the "basic" truths. But debating the deity of Christ - forget it - these folks need I Cor. 15:1-5; Rom. 3-5, and finally Eph. 1-3.

This "advice" would cut down forum discussions by 50%.

I stand by Solo's simple statement made earlier.

God bless

 

[Imagican]

Please understand; there IS no anger from this end. I was simply offering my 'understanding'. Those that 'do NOT understand' do NOT elicite anger from me, but compassion. For I understand that these need MORE forgiveness and prayer than those OF understanding.

Look, it's REAL simple folks. You WILL be judged as you have seen fit to judge others. And there is NOT a SINGLE one on this forum or in this world PERIOD that IS capable of judging the 'heart' of another. That some even THINK this is PROOF that it is THEIR 'lack of understanding' that makes this possible.

For 'straight' IS the gate and narrow IS the way that leadeth unto life, and FEW there be that find it'. It simple mathematics really.

God Bless you my brothers and may God grant the wisdom and grace of His Son so that there can be UNITY among those that CLAIM Christ AS their Savior.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

JG - I didn't start this thread to find anyone that agrees with me. As a matter of fact, as the poll stands now, no-one does. Who cares? That's not the point. A righteousness that comes by faith is.

So what scripture(s) in particular have I ignored?

And a 'healthy' Amen, brother!

Mutz, out of ALL that I have observed on these forums, YOU have exhibited a 'freedom' to love and a patience that is UNMISTAKABLE. That there are STILL others that are 'unable' to see this is incredible.

It's like there are those that have chosen to worship a 'doctrine' over what matters most. That their hearts have been hardened by a 'man-made' doctrine to the point that this is ALL that they are able to 'see'. Father forgive them and grant them the wisdom and understanding that they be able to 'come to an understanding' of your grace and truth.

MEC

 

[jgredline]

Flogging a "dead" horse here - II Cor. 4:2, I Cor. 2:14 -

Unregenerate folk will never understand real spiritual truths - They can quote verses, debate, go to church, etc. but....they cannot understand or "see" spiritual truths.

I've given up discussing certain truths with folks that are most likely unregenerate - it is not redeeming the time.

My humble opinion? Stick with the gospel for that is where the power (is Rom. 1:16) and then if a person has his eyes opened then discuss the "basic" truths. But debating the deity of Christ - forget it - these folks need I Cor. 15:1-5; Rom. 3-5, and finally Eph. 1-3.

This "advice" would cut down forum discussions by 50%.

I stand by Solo's simple statement made earlier.

God bless

Thanks AV...Few but very powerful and very true words....

 

[destiny]

Flogging a "dead" horse here - II Cor. 4:2, I Cor. 2:14 -

Unregenerate folk will never understand real spiritual truths - They can quote verses, debate, go to church, etc. but....they cannot understand or "see" spiritual truths.

I've given up discussing certain truths with folks that are most likely unregenerate - it is not redeeming the time.

My humble opinion? Stick with the gospel for that is where the power (is Rom. 1:16) and then if a person has his eyes opened then discuss the "basic" truths. But debating the deity of Christ - forget it - these folks need I Cor. 15:1-5; Rom. 3-5, and finally Eph. 1-3.

This "advice" would cut down forum discussions by 50%.

I stand by Solo's simple statement made earlier.

God bless

And this coming from a man who likes to make lists of sins like getting drunk, robbing banks, beating wives, etc., and then proceeds to tell us that those who make a practice of such will only lose rewards.

I was told on another forum to treat a person who teaches such lies like I would treat an unbeliever.
Get the LARGE pharasatical plank out of your own eyes before you try to correct someone else with a less serious problem than your own.
Your teachings lead people to Hell.

" so independant even the independants don't like us"

I bet they do try to steer clear.

 

[Imagican]

2 Timothy 1:1

3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.


Let's see............. the time WILL come that they WILL NOT endure sound doctrine..................

Endure= to last, CONTINUE. Sound doctrine. Can there be ANY 'sound' doctrine that one IS UNABLE TO UNDERSTAND?

So, we have a 'doctrine' introduced hundreds of years after the 'death' of Christ. A 'doctrine' that even those that created it and accept it DO NOT UNDERSTAND. They 'claim' that 'it IS a mystery'. And THIS is 'sound doctrine'? And, let us go BACK to the first word that I offered a definition of; ENDURE. To LAST, Continue. Hmmm.

'I' have offered NOTHING other than that which has been revealed through The Word of God. 'I' have altered NOTHING, simply accepted what has been offered. NO, not by MEN, but by Christ and His Father through The Spirit. I have 'created' NO FABLES that I 'cling to' or attempt to 'teach others'. Just the TRUTH folks. And what I offer CAN be compared to The Word and it 'comes out CLEAN' and unaltered. It can stand up to the fire of 'purification'. For it is NOTHING save that which has been given by God through His Son. I KNOW that Jesus Christ IS The Son of God. The rest is NOT something that I know. And I DO KNOW that this 'other stuff' did NOT come through Christ or His apostles. Whether it was revealed AFTER the apostolic era or not is NOT something that I even choose to consider. I know the relationship that 'I' have with God through His Son and the miracle that has been acheived THROUGH Them in my life and that IS enough. That IS where MY FAITH lies and NO man can alter this with vain words concerning 'their way'.


and they SHALL turn away their EARS from the truth, and shall be turned away unto FABLES. Fables= tales, stories, words CREATED by the 'imagination', FICTION.

ALL the Gospels PLAINLY state that 'to be saved', one MUST confess that Christ IS the Son of God. Yet there are those that will 'deny' this for the 'sake of a man-made' doctrine? Those that will 'add' to The Word and INSIST that there is 'some other way'? Those that would deny thier brothers and sisters for the sake of 'man-made' doctrine? What state of man is this that HE would become the 'AUTHORITY', therefore attempting to USURP the authority from the ONLY TRUE AUTHORITY. See? And this will ANGER many. Many will seek to attack 'ME', who does NOTHING other than offer the 'TRUTH' IN Christ.

Guys, if YOU hold to a 'doctrine' that impedes your ability to LOVE, then I offer that this doctine is NOT 'truth'. For there are TWO Great Commandments offered by Christ. If ANY MAN is UNAWARE of these two, then I would offer that their understanding is VOID of truth. For those that 'accept' Christ, we ARE to LOVE God above ALL else, and love our neighbors AS ourselves. On these TWO, Christ offered, HANG ALL the LAW and ALL the prophets. Does ANYONE understand what this MEANS? And these words offered by Christ Himself.

This statement has NOTHING to do with Christians or Jews or pagans, this statement was MADE to those that 'accept' Christ and pertains to their behavior to ALL MEN and WOMEN. Not JUST those that they CHOOSE to be their brothers and sisters. To further illustrate what I OFFER, we are TOLD that we ARE to endure ill treatment from OUR ENEMIES. And if someone ASKS for ANYTHING material that we possess that we ARE NOT TO DENY them. ANYONE, INCLUDING our ENEMIES.

Now, I offer this IN The Spirit; That if there be those among you that DO NOT UNDERSTAND this, then THESE are NOT filled with The Spirit. These IGNORE what has been offered of God and choose INSTEAD to follow their OWN CARNAL HEARTS. THESE are those that have NOT allowed their OWN hearts to be altered by The Spirit in LOVE, and choose instead to continue in the flesh. And if these words that I offer offend ANYONE, then they are NOT of Christ OR His Father and therefore it is THESE that are 'unsaved' and worship 'something' other than God through His Son and The Spirit.

MEC

 

[AVBunyan]

Thanks AV...Few but very powerful and very true words....

I appreciate that JG.

God bless 8-)

 

[AVBunyan]

1. And this coming from a man who likes to make lists of sins like getting drunk, robbing banks, beating wives, etc., and then proceeds to tell us that those who make a practice of such will only lose rewards.

2.Your teachings lead people to Hell.

3. I bet they do try to steer clear.

1. This is because you don't understand justification and the difference between Positional truth vs. Practical truth. Sounds like you are trusting you not doing that list for your salvation.

2. So go and curse John Bunion, John Owen, CH Spurgeon, Thomas Watson, Jothanan Edwards, John Newton, etc. (if you even know who these folks are) along with every greatest and most fruitful missionaries who ever lived. I'll take this crowd over the crowd you appear to run with. :roll:

3. I haven't missed anything.

BTW - you just went on my ignore list - been meaning to do this - my tolerance level decreases with age. :-?

 

[destiny]

1. This is because you don't understand justification and the difference between Positional truth vs. Practical truth. Sounds like you are trusting you not doing that list for your salvation.

2. So go and curse John Bunion, John Owen, CH Spurgeon, Thomas Watson, Jothanan Edwards, John Newton, etc. (if you even know who these folks are) along with every greatest and most fruitful missionaries who ever lived. I'll take this crowd over the crowd you appear to run with. :roll:

3. I haven't missed anything.

BTW - you just went on my ignore list - been meaning to do this - my tolerance level decreases with age. :-?

Ahhh, as i figured your trust is in man. I'll keep believing the simple word of God.

 

[Imagican]

Av,

I have ALWAYS 'endured' your comments and offerings. But it SEEMS as if there is 'something' lacking in YOUR 'walk' that continually makes you 'blind' to the meekness and humbleness that YOU were ALSO commanded, along with EVERY Christian, to OFFER as an EXAMPLE. And WE are told to discern The Spirit of those that would 'be teachers. And THEY, (those that would be teachers), to BEWARE, for 'their burden' is MUCH GREATER than those that simply follow. For these WILL be held accountable for WHAT they 'teach'. If this is NOT 'truth' which they teach, then their reward will CERTAINLY be diminished if not REVOKED entirely.

And there is this little 'thing' called 'forgiveness'. Remember? That which each of us desires the Father to do? Offering His ONLY Begotten Son to DIE for us, thus offering FORGIVENESS for those WILLING to FORGIVE?

Not a pleasant thought to be 'stuck' in hell with ALL those that 'followed' you pulling at your body screaming 'why!' WHY!!! Why did you lead us in THIS direction. That would be unpleasant to have to ENDURE for a moment, imagine ETERNITY.

So, keep in mind and IN YOUR HEART those things that were commanded of us by Christ. NO, not just offered, COMMANDED. You know, like 'longsuffering'. This does NOT need mean pain of the body, but PAIN of the soul and enduring that which is 'placed upon you' to endure. Do it with THANKSGIVING and Blessings, rather than condemnation of those that are LESS understanding and compassionate than YOURSELF. And 'example' my friend goes MUCH further than ANY words or actions AGAINST someone that you choose to offer.

I am NOT here to 'chastise' anyone with The Word. I am here simply to point out what is contained within it. Those that 'take offense' to what I have to offer do so through 'some OTHER spirit'. For the words that I offer are NONE OTHER than those offered by God through His Son.

MEC

 

[jgredline]

Mec
Who forgave you of your sins?

 

[AVBunyan]

1. I have ALWAYS 'endured' your comments and offerings.

2. And there is this little 'thing' called 'forgiveness'. Remember?

Thanks Mec for your comments.

1. Thanks, I appreciate that. But it was a choice you made and if had chosen not to listen then you have that right and it shouldn’t affect me. You have that right to listen to what you want.

2. The issue here is not forgiveness – Why do you assume I do not or have not forgiven here? The issue is that I have the right to close my ears to whomever I feel - just like you do. I’m very forbearing and patient and with my stand on election, the AV1611, and right division I’ve been a target for some time now on these forums and wouldn’t have lasted if I wasn’t forbearing. But…but…I look at attitudes associated with the posts. There are certain attitudes that cause me to draw the line. And when certain folks cross over and stay crossed over because it is their character, then I draw the line – I forgive but I “Ignore†after a while – just don’t care to hear or read it. Just not worth it to me these days.

An ole’ farmer once said, “Son, if you go in to fight with a skunk ya come out smellin’ like one.â€

I know this may sound cold but again - one has to draw the line somewhere on what he chooses to tolerate.

God bless

 

[AVBunyan]

ALL the Gospels PLAINLY state that 'to be saved', one MUST confess that Christ IS the Son of God.

While I'm here - Again this statement proves that most do not know what the gospel is for today.

If all one believes is the above quote then their reservation in a lake of fire is secure.

I respectfully suggest that you find out what the resurrected Christ himself told Paul regarding this issue.

God bless

 

[Imagican]

j,

God SENT His Son to DIE for MY sins. So long as I accept what God has offered and offer repentance and love in return, my sins ARE forgiven by God THROUGH His Son Jesus Christ. When God looks down upon me NOW, instead of the creature that I once WAS, He NOW sees His Son instead. 'I' and Christ ARE ONE as God and His Son ARE ONE. We abide in the 'same' faimily with God as our Father. Washed CLEAN of sin through the BLOOD of Christ.

No need to 'twist' words in order to offer 'truth'. I have become a 'new' creature THROUGH Christ, God's Son. And through the blood that was shed I too have been allowed to defeat death, (receive forgiveness), FROM God through the sacrifice of the ULTIMATE Lamb of God, His Son, Jesus Christ. One sacrifice for all time. For the PUNISHMENT of sin IS death. I accept the sacrifice WILLINGLY and THANK God for the offering of His Son in my stead. I choose love and life rather than hate and death. Thereby KNOWING that I have BECOME a 'new creature'.

For the 'old man' that I once was has been shed through 'truth' and no longer has the POWER to destroy my life and soul. I am 'bound' NO LONGER to the 'father of lies' and am able to discern TRUTH through The Word of God offered to us by His Son, Jesus Christ and the apostles and prophets CHOSEN to do God's WILL.

All one NEED do is LOVE the ONE TRUE God above all else, accept His Son's death and ressurection, and love their neihbors AS themselves and the Spirit of God WILL dwell within them TOO. It's NOT about 'Rocket Science', it's about faith and worship, (Love), of Our TRUE Creator and EVERY part of His creation. But NOTHING 'before' Him. If you wish for MORE detail I will 'gladly' offer that which has been SO FREELY given to me and ALL those that are willing to accept it.

For ANY that believe that one must follow the 'teachings of me' in order to receive what has been offered; I would suggest reading the stories concerning the second King of Isreal. For the Bible tells us that David WAS a man after God's OWN heart. This man was a 'sinner' without compare. Murderer, adulterer, ignored the 'laws' of the temple, etc.......... BUT, he was STILL a man after God's OWN heart. Figure out 'how' this IS possible and you will quickly find that one NEED follow ONLY ONE THING in order to be 'as David'. For those with the inability to accept what has been offered, I can only wish them luck in their search for THIS TRUTH. That, or they MUST 'let go' of the 'man-made' tradition and follow The Spirit instead.

MEC