Is our belief in who Jesus is, necessary for salvation

[jgredline]

Mutz
Lets take a look at the scripture YOU provided. for the sake of time I will only comment briefly on this.....even though I can write an entire sermon on this.....

Now there was a man in scripture whom Jesus asked, “Do you believe in the son of Man?†"Who is he, sir?" the man asked. "Tell me so that I may believe in him."
Jesus said, "You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you."
Then the man said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him.

Speaking of blind men, it is surprising to me that you do ''NOT SEE THIS''....Think about what the man said...."Lord, I believe,".....Then what happened right after? What does the scripture you quoted say?....Let me help you with it...It says ''and he worshiped him.''....Now put on your thinking cap....and ask yourself....Did Jesus rebuke him? Surely if Jesus rebuked him for ''WORSHIPING HIM'' it would have been mentioned, but NO. Jesus accepted worship from this man because he is God.....If Jesus were not God he would not have been worshiped, he would not have allowed himself to be worshiped....What is even more telling is that this man ''recognized'' Jesus as GOD..... 8-)



Easy Rider...
Welcome aboard and yes I agree that many folk need to come to the understanding on what Justification means....

 

[mutzrein]

In my heart, I predicted your comments. I knew full well you would hone in on this but you see I don't have the same perspective on the word 'worship' as you. To me the use of the word worship, and the manner in which it is used here, is not reserved for God.

 

[Guest]

In my heart, I predicted your comments. I knew full well you would hone in on this but you see I don't have the same perspective on the word 'worship' as you. To me the use of the word worship, and the manner in which it is used here, is not reserved for God.

Would you please elaborate onto your perspective of the word "worship".

But more to the point, it is not your perspective that matters, in this case. Rather it would be the perspective of Christ that matters. In that - if, and I believe He did, Jesus understood that worship was to be reserved for God alone (Exodus 34:14; Deut. 6:13), and Jesus was not God, then Jesus would not have accepted the worship.

However, if Jesus, and again I believe he did have this understanding, understood that worship was to be reserved for God alone, and since Jesus accepted his worship - then that shows that Jesus is God.

 

[Jay T]

So for the sake of this thread, let's say that salvation is attained at the point at which we hear Jesus say, 'well done thou good and faithful servant'.

Yes, OBEDIENCE to what Jesus says to do, is the determining factor in the Paln of Salvation.

Obedience, is what will determine whether a Christian gets into heaven or not.

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness ?

Too many, in the modern Christian world, rely upon 'Justtification' without due consideration to the 'Sanctification' factor which CANNOT be separated from Justtification.

In other words, Justification is forgiveness of past sins........

Sanctification, is to live a life, without committing any further known sins, being controlled by, the grace of Jesus Christ.

Grace, being the power of God, to do as Jesus said: 'go and sin no more'.

 

[Imagican]

Let me offer an 'answer' to this question concerning the word 'worship'.

Many seem UNAWARE of what the word 'truly' means. To worship IS to adore. To adore IS to 'love'.

There IS worship reserved for God ALONE. And there is OTHER acceptable 'worship'. We ARE to love, (worship), EACH OTHER as we love, (worship), ourselves. BUT, we are to worship God ABOVE these two. And we are CERTAINLY to worship, (love), Christ. And there IS NOTHING in what is offered in the scripture concerning the man 'worshiping' Christ that states that He was 'worshiped AS God'.

How many among us offer their worship to their wives and children? Their parents? It is amazing how many among us are LIKELY to worship such things as their HOMES, their CARS, their MONEY, their CHURCHES, their PASTORS. Yet these same will deny the adoration that they offer for such 'things' as being 'worship'. That is the 'nature' of the flesh. To 'worship' the things of 'this WORLD', and basically IGNORE their Creator.
To place 'things' in the stead of their Creator and makes gods of 'things' rather than that which matters MOST.

So, that there were those that worshiped Christ and that we are to STILL offer such worship adds NOTHING to this 'Christ = God'. For Christ IS worthy of our worship. I worship Christ. But as The Son of God rather than God Himself. And I offer prayer IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST who IS the intercessor between myself and my God. But my prayer is TO God, the Father of Jesus Christ and MY FATHER as well.

We were NEVER commanded to ONLY 'worship' God. We were told to worship NOTHING BEFORE our One True God. See how 'twisted' the churches can 'alter' that which has been offered?

MEC

 

[Solo]

Yes, OBEDIENCE to what Jesus says to do, is the determining factor in the Paln of Salvation.

Obedience, is what will determine whether a Christian gets into heaven or not.

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness ?

Too many, in the modern Christian world, rely upon 'Justtification' without due consideration to the 'Sanctification' factor which CANNOT be separated from Justtification.

In other words, Justification is forgiveness of past sins........

Sanctification, is to live a life, without committing any further known sins, being controlled by, the grace of Jesus Christ.

Grace, being the power of God, to do as Jesus said: 'go and sin no more'.

It is a shame that you do not understand being born again. It is the fact that when one is born again, they will then enter into the kingdom of God. Your teaching is a false teaching which will bring many, many into hell as they have not been taught to repent, and believe on the name of Jesus Christ, but instead are being taught to keep the Law of Moses. I have never read a post of yours that teaches how one is to be born again. I have only read your pitiful attempt to teach people that keeping the Law of Moses will gain them access into the Kingdom of God.

 

[Guest]

There is a difference between 'worship' and 'love'.

I worship God because of God's love for me, and through worship I express my love to Him, however not everything I love do I worship.

Duet. 6:13 "You shall fear only the Lord your God; and you shall worship Him and swear by His name."

Exodus 34:14 "for you shall not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God."

Worhsip is reserved for God and God alone.

 

[Imagican]

JayT

While I DO understand your 'passion' concerning obedience I feel compeled to offer this:

One's walk IS simply that; their walk in faith.

To 'believe' that upon the acceptance of Christ into one's heart that they are to NEVER 'sin again' is nothing but a 'pipe dream'.

I'll use myself for an example to save others the 'heart ache'.

It took me close to FORTY YEARS to become the wretch that I was previous to 'being saved', (don't get me WRONG, I am STILL a WRETCH, unworthy of that which has been offered). To even THINK that I was INSTANTLY transformed into some UNSINNING heavenly 'being' is LUDICROUS. I WILL sin until the 'day of this flesh's death.

With this in mind, let us discern the 'difference' between a saved soul and one that is LOST.

David WAS a 'man after God's own heart. Did he SIN? Ohhhhh YES!!!! So HOW was he this; 'man after God's own heart? He STILL LOVED God and returned and asked for FORGIVENESS REGARDLESS of his 'sinning'.

Now, the IMPORTANT PART; Christ DID say to obey HIS commandments. Exactly WHAT were His commandments? Many would offer that since Christ IS God that ALL the commandments offered by God WERE Christ's Commandments. I believe that this is 'misconception'.

Christ offer TWO commandments and the EXAMPLE of 'these TWO'. Love God with all your heartl, mind and soul. And love you neighbor AS yourself. He even went on to expouse that ALL the LAW and ALL the PROPHETS hang on THESE TWO. The indication here is that IF we do THESE TWO, we have abided in the 'truth' of The Word of God, offered us through His Son, Jesus Christ.

So, while one's reward may CERTAINLY be affected by our adherance to God's commandments, one must realize that the commandments of the Hebrews/Jews were NEVER given to ALL MEN. YES, we are to 'strive' to allow our hearts to be MOLDED into that which God intends, we are NEVER to allow the 'father of lies' to beguile us into believing for ONE SECOND that we are to be 'perfect' in 'the flesh' in order to receive the LOVE OF GOD. For that IS exactly what Satan would LOVE for us to believe. That through our sin we CANNOT be accepted and loved by our TRUE GOD.

So, to sum this up;

The turning point from flesh to Spirit IS in revelation and acceptance of such. The difference between the 'saved' and the 'unsaved' is the UNDERSTANDING of that which has been offered from above. For those that are lost ONLY understand the 'things of this world'. Those that are saved understand that which is considered but FOOLISHNESS by those that follow this world.

Yes, obeying the commandments WILL please God so long as they are done OUT OF LOVE. To simply attempt to abide in the commandments out of 'duty' is of 'little effect'. To give from one's HEART is ALL IMPORTANT, but to give out of 'duty' means little to God.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

and Solo,

I understand your passion as well. Living 'by the law' offers NOTHING in and of itself. It's the WHY of our obedience that matters MOST.

Many seem to think that we have a 'heartless God'. UNTRUE. Our God IS 'Heart'. What we MUST learn and remember IS that God DOES love us. He loves us and DOES understand what we must endure. Understands it SO MUCH that He sent His OWN Son to suffer the EXACT state of 'the flesh' which we are subject to. And not only was His Son to suffer 'in the flesh', but to DIE an innocent, UNSPEAKABLE death while 'in it' so that we 'might be saved'.

But let us NOT forget the love and patience that has been offered to US. Let us SHARE that love and patience so that we are 'shining examples' of that which has been so freely and lovingly GIVEN.


MEC

 

[Solo]

and Solo,

I understand your passion as well. Living 'by the law' offers NOTHING in and of itself. It's the WHY of our obedience that matters MOST.

Many seem to think that we have a 'heartless God'. UNTRUE. Our God IS 'Heart'. What we MUST learn and remember IS that God DOES love us. He loves us and DOES understand what we must endure. Understands it SO MUCH that He sent His OWN Son to suffer the EXACT state of 'the flesh' which we are subject to. And not only was His Son to suffer 'in the flesh', but to DIE an innocent, UNSPEAKABLE death while 'in it' so that we 'might be saved'.

But let us NOT forget the love and patience that has been offered to US. Let us SHARE that love and patience so that we are 'shining examples' of that which has been so freely and lovingly GIVEN.


MEC

Why did Jesus tell Peter, "Get thee behind me, satan"?

 

[jgredline]

In my heart, I predicted your comments. I knew full well you would hone in on this but you see I don't have the same perspective on the word 'worship' as you. To me the use of the word worship, and the manner in which it is used here, is not reserved for God.

Perhaps what you heard in your heart was the voice of God the Holy Spirit, telling you who Jesus is....I suspect that deeeeeep down you know that Jesus is God to be true.

 

[jgredline]

Let me offer an 'answer' to this question concerning the word 'worship'.

Many seem UNAWARE of what the word 'truly' means. To worship IS to adore. To adore IS to 'love'.

There IS worship reserved for God ALONE. And there is OTHER acceptable 'worship'. We ARE to love, (worship), EACH OTHER as we love, (worship), ourselves. BUT, we are to worship God ABOVE these two. And we are CERTAINLY to worship, (love), Christ. And there IS NOTHING in what is offered in the scripture concerning the man 'worshiping' Christ that states that He was 'worshiped AS God'.

How many among us offer their worship to their wives and children? Their parents? It is amazing how many among us are LIKELY to worship such things as their HOMES, their CARS, their MONEY, their CHURCHES, their PASTORS. Yet these same will deny the adoration that they offer for such 'things' as being 'worship'. That is the 'nature' of the flesh. To 'worship' the things of 'this WORLD', and basically IGNORE their Creator.
To place 'things' in the stead of their Creator and makes gods of 'things' rather than that which matters MOST.

So, that there were those that worshiped Christ and that we are to STILL offer such worship adds NOTHING to this 'Christ = God'. For Christ IS worthy of our worship. I worship Christ. But as The Son of God rather than God Himself. And I offer prayer IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST who IS the intercessor between myself and my God. But my prayer is TO God, the Father of Jesus Christ and MY FATHER as well.

We were NEVER commanded to ONLY 'worship' God. We were told to worship NOTHING BEFORE our One True God. See how 'twisted' the churches can 'alter' that which has been offered?

MEC

: ...I will take my time in answering this, but talk about trying to justify something.....

 

[mutzrein]

Would you please elaborate onto your perspective of the word "worship".

But more to the point, it is not your perspective that matters, in this case. Rather it would be the perspective of Christ that matters. In that - if, and I believe He did, Jesus understood that worship was to be reserved for God alone (Exodus 34:14; Deut. 6:13), and Jesus was not God, then Jesus would not have accepted the worship.

However, if Jesus, and again I believe he did have this understanding, understood that worship was to be reserved for God alone, and since Jesus accepted his worship - then that shows that Jesus is God.

Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

 

[mutzrein]

Perhaps what you heard in your heart was the voice of God the Holy Spirit, telling you who Jesus is....I suspect that deeeeeep down you know that Jesus is God to be true.

Come now JG - I know my heart. But the Lord knows it better and deals with it and the weakness of my flesh daily. And in His dealings I have NEVER 'known' anything in the deepest recesses of my heart which convicts me of what you say I must believe in order to be saved.

Quite the opposite actually. I have known times when it has been like a conversation twixt the Lord and I. "Lord, I believe what you have shown me but what do I say when people use scripture, telling me that this says the opposite - and I don't understand the meaning of what is written." And it was as though He said to me, "You do well to believe. Trust in me and at the right time I will reveal what is needful for you."

And you know what? He has! :D

 

[mutzrein]

BTW - It's good to see the numbers going up on the first option. I'd be worried if I was in the majority :wink:

 

[jgredline]

Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

Goodness Mutz....
You have completely taken this ''parable'' out of context....my, my my....
OK, This ''parable'' is about the power of forgiveness.
This ''parable'' is not about salvation, for salvation is wholly of grace and is unconditionally given. This is also not a worship ''parable''....This ''parable'' deals with ''forgiveness'' between brothers, not between lost sinners and God....Further more, what is the purpose of ''parables''....What is their primary function....I will leave you to ponder that....

 

[mutzrein]

Carry on JG. Think what you will.

 

[Solo]

Carry on JG. Think what you will.

Have you ever heard of David "Bucker" Becker?

 

[mutzrein]

Have you ever heard of David "Bucker" Becker?

No. Who is he?

 

[Jay T]

and Solo,

I understand your passion as well. Living 'by the law' offers NOTHING in and of itself. It's the WHY of our obedience that matters MOST.

The why is ALL IMPORTANT !

Have anyone never noticed when Jesus tells Christians, to keep the commandments of God, that He includes the word LOVE, with the word Commandments ?

If a person keeps the commandments out of love for Jesus Christ as He says to do......that is not legalism !

That is why God says not to judge anyone.
WHY ?
Because no one knows their motivation for doing what they do.....only God knows the heart's motivation.

BUT, if a person does not keep the commandments of God, by word or actions...it is MOST apparent, that that person has NO relationship with Jesus Christ !