Is our belief in who Jesus is, necessary for salvation

[mutzrein]

Incase anyone is waiting for a post from me I'm out of town for a day or so. Taking my daughter out of town to see her grandpa. :D

 

[Imagican]

Av,

Please note that I did NOT say that ALL it takes is to accept that Christ is the Son of God. I stated that ALL the Gospels offer that TO BE saved one must accept Christ as the Son of God. This was in leu of the topic. Many would state that I MUST accept Christ AS God in order to receive the gift that has been offered. Yet this is NOT stated in The Word.

It was to THIS mentality that I made the statement. You may believe this; Christ IS God, but I KNOW better than this being even a 'part' of Salvation. For IF this wERE true, it would have been plainly stated and I have met MORE of those that I believe ARE living FOR God that DON'T believe this.

God does NOT leave those that are innocent unable to understand. Ignorant maybe, but innocent NOT HARDLY. And for it to be NECESSARY to 'believe' that Christ IS God, this WOULD have been offered in The Word to those that were 'seeking' the TRUTH.

MEC

 

[AVBunyan]

Av,
Please note that I did NOT say that ALL it takes is to accept that Christ is the Son of God. I stated that ALL the Gospels offer that TO BE saved one must accept Christ as the Son of God. This was in leu of the topic. Many would state that I MUST accept Christ AS God in order to receive the gift that has been offered. Yet this is NOT stated in The Word.

If I misrepresented your post then I apologize - In the Gospels that was part of the message - today the message is found in I Cor. 15:1-5.

God bless

 

[Imagican]

Av,

And with this I agree wholeheartedly. I understand your misinterpretation of my first post. But understand, I was making a 'general statement' offering more 'who' Jesus stated that 'He' was/is than 'what it takes to become 'saved'.

And Av,

I don't know what 'situations' you and others have been through in the past, I was simply pointing out that our brothers and sisters NEED us; ALL of them. The Body CANNOT be complete without ALL of it's members. And ours is CERTAINLY to offer up an 'exellent' example is nothing else. Nothing personal I ASSURE you.

And this thread WAS created, (I'm sure), to offer that UNITY is MUCH more important than 'man-made' doctrine. And if we study history, we quickly find that 'man-made' doctrine causes LITTLE else other THAN separation of God's children.

I know many that love God AND His Son, yet do NOT subscribe to this notion of 'trinity' or 'Jesus IS God'. So I can PERSONALLY attest to the FACT that a 'belief in trinity' is NOT a 'prerequisite of GOD'. And Christ Himself NEVER offered that one MUST accept this 'man-made trinity' in order for Him to BE one's Savior.

That is the 'purpose' of this thread. Not to 'argue' whether 'trinity' is or isn't a 'part' of Christianity NOW, but whether or not one MUST accept it to be 'saved'. I, for one, kNOW that a 'lack' of understanding of or acceptance of this 'doctrine' has little bearing on a personal relationship with God.

MEC

 

[Jay T]

My stand on this is.....
in quote of what Peter said......

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
6:48 I am that bread of life.
6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
6:52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?
6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
6:59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard [this], said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
6:62 [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.
6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
6:66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

 

[MarkT]

Jesus said, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone." Mark 10:18 Jesus was referring to the Father. The Word of God is neither necessarily good nor evil. He can be both. He separates. He divides families. He lifts up and gives life to those who believe in him and he is the promise of a terrible judgment and eternal punishment to those who do not believe in him. This is why Jesus is called the 'Word' or 'Son' of God. God, the Father is love. Jesus, his Son is his Word, his Holy righteousness. Why do you argue amongst yourselves whether the Word is divine? He came from the Divinity. He returned to the Divinity, to his God and our God, to his Father and our Father. He is everlasting. He was made lower than the angels for a period of time and he died on the cross and he was raised from the dead by God and he ascended to the throne of God. Jesus said, "And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." John 17:3 The Father is the only true God. If you don't believe his Word, then what part do you have in him? When you have both the Father and the Son in you, then you have both love and truth in you and your words and teachings will be right and true.

 

[Veritas]

This will probably get lost in the sea of discussion of this thread but I was aimlessly surfing around today on the internet and found something really neat!

Anyone hear of the Huleatt Manuscript? It contains Matthew 26:7-15 and amazingly its been dated to 30-70 AD

Anyways, what caught my eye was the wording of the verses in it...

She poured it [the perfume] over his [Jesus'] hair when he sat at the table. But, when the disciples saw it, they were indignant. . . . God, aware of this, said to them: 'Why do you trouble this woman? She has done [a beautiful thing for me.]

Just thought I'd share!

 

[Rick W]

In my view the Trinity concept isn't very useful. Jesus was not God incarnate. He was the incarnate Word; the first act of God, the workman, the Day, the arm of the LORD, the light that was made in the beginning, the vehicle by whom and through whom God made everything. Be obedient to the Word.

You're close, very close.

There is usefulness in the concept of the Trinity though. God comes to us because we are not worthy to go to Him. If Jesus is not God then God did not come to us. But He DID come to us by His Word.

Why do I say you're close?
Jesus is the Word of God. One cannot separate the Word from God any more than one can separate copper from brass and still have brass. God's Word is not an attribute of God. God's Word and God are one and the same. The will of God is God. The will of God is His Word. His Word is the very essence of who He is. Eliminate His Word, His will, His intent, His very being and God is not God. The Word of God is not a vehicle, the Word is God and cannot be the Word of God if the Word is not God.


John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

God's will was that there should be light. That light was made by the Word of God.

Is each case of creative power in Genesis we see God's will becoming a reality made by the Word of God, what it was that God intended, what He would have that would be.

How many times did Christ say He could only say or do that which came from the Father? Can God's Word do anything but convey the intents of the Father? And aren't the intents of the Father who He is?
God's Word came to us to show us the way. His Word is truth, His word is the way and His Word is the life.
God's Word is God. The two cannot be separate entities, deities, persons or things.

Touching on firstborn:

In Scripture, Isaac was God's chosen heir though he was not born first, Ishmael was. Jacob also was called the firstborn but not born first. How so? Firstborn can also be used as legal term for pre-eminence.

Genesis 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac...

Genesis 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

But Abraham fathered Ishmael also. The promise was through Isaac, not Ishmael.

Psalm 89:27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

David was not the firstborn of Jesse yet God will make him His "firstborn".

Firstborn doesn't always refer to the first biological birth but that which is to have dominance, position, status... pre-eminence.

 

[Imagican]

You're close, very close.

There is usefulness in the concept of the Trinity though. God comes to us because we are not worthy to go to Him. If Jesus is not God then God did not come to us. But He DID come to us by His Word.

And WHY did He HAVE to 'come to us'. Why couldn't He just DO what He DID? Why could HE not JUST AS EASILY have sent HIS SON? Why could The Son NOT have been given WHATEVER power God chose to GIVE HIM in order to achieve that which was needed?

Why do I say you're close?
Jesus is the Word of God. One cannot separate the Word from God any more than one can separate copper from brass and still have brass. God's Word is not an attribute of God. God's Word and God are one and the same. The will of God is God. The will of God is His Word. His Word is the very essence of who He is. Eliminate His Word, His will, His intent, His very being and God is not God. The Word of God is not a vehicle, the Word is God and cannot be the Word of God if the Word is not God.

Your comparison of God and The Son to something 'material' doesn't 'cut it'. What IS impossible for us is NOT impossible for God. That some are 'unable' to understand it just goes to show HOW IMPORTANT faith and The Spirit TRULY are.


John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

God's will was that there should be light. That light was made by the Word of God.

Is each case of creative power in Genesis we see God's will becoming a reality made by the Word of God, what it was that God intended, what He would have that would be.

Ok, So WHY could God NOT have willed creation and Christ performed it? Why could Christ NOT have been the Son of God PREVIOUS to His 'Taking on the flesh'. Could not Christ have been separate from God and STILL be ONE in Spirit. Able to perform that which God 'authorized' Him to DO?

How many times did Christ say He could only say or do that which came from the Father? Can God's Word do anything but convey the intents of the Father? And aren't the intents of the Father who He is?
God's Word came to us to show us the way. His Word is truth, His word is the way and His Word is the life.
God's Word is God. The two cannot be separate entities, deities, persons or things.

This makes you of the 'group' that believe that Satan TEMPTED God and NOT His Son. That Satan was 'foolish' enough to think that he could offer God that which He already possessed? That Satan even 'thought' that He could tempt God, (SOMEHOW), to 'bow down and worship HIM'. Come on. That 'just don't make NO sense'.

Touching on firstborn:

In Scripture, Isaac was God's chosen heir though he was not born first, Ishmael was. Jacob also was called the firstborn but not born first. How so? Firstborn can also be used as legal term for pre-eminence.

Genesis 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac...

Genesis 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

This IS GOOD. Now, let's HONESTLY look at what you have offered here;
God asked Abraham to 'sacrifice' his son to PROVE his love for God. Abraham PASSED the 'test'. NOW, do you HONESTLY believe that God would expect this from a 'man' and OFFER ANY LESS in return? That HE IS LOVE, has tried to impart this LOVE to us, has offered examples of it. And would be unable to deliver that which HE expects of US? Unable to offer the sacrifice that He expected of us? Once again, ''That just don't make NO sense''.

But Abraham fathered Ishmael also. The promise was through Isaac, not Ishmael.

Psalm 89:27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

David was not the firstborn of Jesse yet God will make him His "firstborn".

Firstborn doesn't always refer to the first biological birth but that which is to have dominance, position, status... pre-eminence.

Christ IS the 'first born of EVERY CREATURE. Do you honestly believe that this is 'some kind of riddle'? Is it NOT perfectly CLEAR what is offered in this statement? BEFORE there was ANY creature, CHRIST was 'born'. It doesn't take rocket science to figure this one out. Nor does it take philosophy or mythology. It is spoken in PLAIN words that are SIMPLE to understand to those that so choose to accept what is offered.

MEC

 

[Rick W]

Where do you find scripture that Christ was born or created to support the interpretation of "firstborn" as you wish it to be?
Where is the account of the creation of Christ? That would be too far an important event to just ignore.

 

[Rick W]

Firstborn is used also as "the head of", dominant, supreme, of utmost status even in legal terms as I've already made known in my previous post. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out David was not born first.
The reason you won't find the account of Christ's creation is because it never happened. He is the pre-eminence, the firstborn, over all of creation, for all things are put under His feet, all will bend their knee before Him, all judgment is given to Him...
What else is there that He is not over and above in all of creation?

And if all things were created for Him, by Him and through Him then how did He create Himself?

 

[mutzrein]

Incase anyone is waiting for a post from me I'm out of town for a day or so. Taking my daughter out of town to see her grandpa. :D

I'm back . . . Did I miss anything? :P

 

[Rick W]

I'm back . . . Did I miss anything? :P

Naw, same ol', same ol'.

Ecclesiastes 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

 

[jgredline]

Naw, same ol', same ol'.

Ecclesiastes 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

Yep

 

[Jay T]

Where do you find scripture that Christ was born or created to support the interpretation of "firstborn" as you wish it to be?
Where is the account of the creation of Christ? That would be too far an important event to just ignore.

Maybe it means Christ was the 'first born' of the Ressurrection, to get into heaven ?

 

[Rick W]

Maybe it means Christ was the 'first born' of the Ressurrection, to get into heaven ?

Yes, I can see agree with that but not that it means He was created/born. "'first born' of the Ressurrection" is yet more evidence of His supremacy over all of creation.

 

[Jay T]

Yes, I can see agree with that but not that it means He was created/born. "'first born' of the Ressurrection" is yet more evidence of His supremacy over all of creation.

You're right......Christ as God was NEVER created or born......He always was, and always will be.
There is no beginning or ending with Christ as one of the three in the Godhead (Father, Son, and Holy Spirirt)

Jesus was only called the SON, AFTER, He was born of a woman.

 

[jgredline]

You're right......Christ as God was NEVER created or born......He always was, and always will be.
There is no beginning or ending with Christ as one of the three in the Godhead (Father, Son, and Holy Spirirt)

Jesus was only called the SON, AFTER, He was born of a woman.

Jay T
Good post.

 

[Rick W]

I don't know of any other relationship we can identify with other than "Son" anyway. Christ says He is the resurrection. That in itself isn't easy to get one's mind around since resurrection is an event and He was flesh when He said that. He also says I am the way, I am the truth, I am the life.
But if we can understand who He is it becomes a bit easier. The Word of God is the resurrection, God's Word is the truth, God's Word is the way and God's Word is the life.
Jewish custom had it that the son was always of the father, equated with the father and the heir of the father's possessions. We can see they understood what Christ was saying.

John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

I believe the Jews had a much better general concept of Christ's deity back then than most do today and knew who Jesus was saying He was.

 

[Solo]

You're right......Christ as God was NEVER created or born......He always was, and always will be.
There is no beginning or ending with Christ as one of the three in the Godhead (Father, Son, and Holy Spirirt)

Jesus was only called the SON, AFTER, He was born of a woman.

What would you say concerning this verse in Daniel occured prior to Jesus Christ being born a man?


He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God. Daniel 3:25