Is the Law of God dead? And if yes, how?

[Hopeful]

i didn't say it makes anyone holy in the way you mean it - i said God said it and it is the wisest thing to do in every aspect

but since you brought it up holy means set apart for God's use and glory - so for sure living by every word that comes out of the mouth of God will cause you to be set apart from the world as someone who is a testimony of God's awesomeness -

the temple laws and sacrifices were only when there was a temple - there is no temple so there is no temple laws that can be kept - God was very specific about everything He said

OK, at least we agree that some of the commandments of God no longer apply to NT believers.
We just seem to differ on which ones.

 

[for_his_glory]

How do you find animal sacrifice applicable to "real" life?
The big 9 commandments are written on our hearts without the Mosaic Law being in effect.
They occur naturally in those with the new divine nature.
But wearing blue and abstaining from pork don't make a man More holy.

I already showed in my post #291 the moral parts of the law we are still to follow.
I'm not going to get into sinless perfection with you as I have shown you, as well as others, many times this is a false teaching taught by man's theories.

 

[for_his_glory]

Are you obeying all that the Pharisees and scribes command you? (Matt 23:3)
Those were Jesus' commands to His disciples.
Some of the things spoken by Jesus were for the folks around Him, and don't apply to us.
Jesus spoke from the time He was in.
So did Paul.
Sometimes their words were meant for just those of their own times.
I thank God I am in Paul's NT times.

I obey all the moral laws within the 613 laws that we are yet to follow through that of God's greatest commandment of love.

 

[Hopeful]

I already showed in my post #291 the moral parts of the law we are still to follow.
I'm not going to get into sinless perfection with you as I have shown you, as well as others, many times this is a false teaching taught by man's theories.

My question was not addressed to you.

I live without sin because God made it possible by faith in Christ Jesus.

 

[Hopeful]

I obey all the moral laws within the 613 laws that we are yet to follow through that of God's greatest commandment of love.

Judging from your last post, that "obey" must only be partial.

Back on topic...

 

[smaller]

Paul and all the new covenant saints from the day of Pentecost and up to the time of Christ return are still under the moral parts of the 613 laws. If we could only keep the greatest command of God which is to love then we will carry out to the T the moral parts. Do you know which one's those are? We are to fulfill the moral parts of the laws through love as in what Paul is teaching in Romans 13:8-11, he only list 5, but not the full as an example of what we are to follow.

I will maintain that the evil present in no one follows any moral imperatives and is not capable of doing so.

We steer clear of evil for our own good, knowing that God brings even more evil to such actions, but we don't avoid having to engage it internally.

Romans 7, entire chapter

The evil conscience in no one is "moral." Put on a good act at best. Heb. 10:22

There are laws (commandments) of God that were especially written just for the Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite. Jesus has already fulfilled those parts. Then there are the existing moral laws (commandments) for all of us to still follow as in prayers and blessings, love and brotherhood. The poor and unfortunate, treatment of the Gentiles, Marriage, divorce and family. Forbidden sexual relations, business practices, employees and servants. Vows, oaths, swearing, Court and Judicial procedures. Injuries and damages, property and property rights, criminal laws. Prophecy, idolatry and all its practices as the moral laws (commandments) keep us in line with the will of God.​

Jesus said man shall live by every word of God. Matthew 4:4, Luke 4:4.

Parsing them out as applicable only to Jews can't possibly be true. Which is why I cited a few of many elaborations of the scriptures earlier, they showing God's Words being rooted in allegory, parable, similitude, figures and the like, in addition to being and remaining alive and active. And as such, applicable to everyone at all times in all ways.

I do not discount the actual events, but there are always much deeper issues in play that apply directly to us all.

God does not speak in vain, ever.

 

[smaller]

Too bad you think that way, in spite of verses like..."For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:12)
Jesus came and condemned sin while in the flesh, (Rom 8:3), and in Him, we partake of that victory.
It is written..."But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:" (Rom 3:21-22)

Do you believe?

I do not see only people in the scriptures. There are people, carnal, natural, fleshly, captives of devils in their minds, ala Mark 4:15, Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2, 1 John 3:8

They are the source of the evil conscience in humans and all temptations are also sourced in them.

They, in mankind, can never follow the laws. They can only predictably resist God and His Laws, primarily in the minds of mankind.

And no, no one is exempt from their internal antics, no matter what believers may claim, because we're not dealing with just ourselves.

We do wrestle with our adversary, and that wrestling match is internal and real

 

[JLB]

I agree, the devil is a sinner.
But, thanks be to God, we have the power to resist the devil and he will flee. (James 4:7)..."Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you."
Submit yourself to God, and the tempter will flee from you.

And better yet…


We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. 1 John 5:18


God desires for us to grow up and walk in the victory His Son paid for on the cross.





JLB

 

[Truthfrees]

OK, at least we agree that some of the commandments of God no longer apply to NT believers.
We just seem to differ on which ones.

i would word that differently - none of the temple service laws apply to anyone who is not of the tribe of levi AND working in the temple - as there is no temple

if there was a temple and you were a nt believer and a levite the laws would apply to you

the laws for marriage do not apply to any single person as they are not married

but all laws are your choice to live by - God is not going to force you to keep them - God only said those who break the laws and teach others to do so are the least in God's kingdom - Matthew 5:19

the first nt believers were almost all jews who went to synagogue each shabbat and kept God's laws - they were called a sect of judaism THE WAY - Acts 24:14

everyone knew which of God's laws applied to them

the religious leaders also made up heavy burdensome laws to put on the people which the leaders themselves did not keep - thus God called them hypocrites - Matthew 23:4 - Matthew 15:3 - Matthew 15:6

 

[Truthfrees]

Are you obeying all that the Pharisees and scribes command you? (Matt 23:3)
Those were Jesus' commands to His disciples.

they were the spiritual and social government of the day - you as a nt are told to obey your government too - Romans 13:1 - Matthew 17:27

 

[Truthfrees]

Are you sacrificing animals for your sins? (as you don't believe we can walk sinlessly)
Can't we follow the big 9 without doing animal sacrifices?

sacrifices can only be made 1x per year at the temple in jerusalem by the priests for the people - God forbids everyone from making sacrifices on their own - now that there is no temple there are no sacrifices - that is the beauty of God's laws - even the sacrificial laws - God makes sure that there is no more sacrifices

 

[Hopeful]

I do not see only people in the scriptures. There are people, carnal, natural, fleshly, captives of devils in their minds, ala Mark 4:15, Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2, 1 John 3:8

There are people of faith too though.
People who love God with all their heart and strength.
Folks who don't walk in the flesh, but in the Spirit.
Carnal, fleshly, servants of sin are the antithesis of Christians.

They are the source of the evil conscience in humans and all temptations are also sourced in them.

You only get an 'evil conscience' if you do evil works.
Those in Christ don't do evil works...or bring forth evil fruit.
God's seed, from which they have been reborn, prevents that.

They, in mankind, can never follow the laws. They can only predictably resist God and His Laws, primarily in the minds of mankind.
And no, no one is exempt from their internal antics, no matter what believers may claim, because we're not dealing with just ourselves.
We do wrestle with our adversary, and that wrestling match is internal and real

Though we still get tempted by the devil, having had our flesh, with the affections and lusts, crucified with Christ, (Gal 5:24), prevents following through on temptations based on now dead lusts.

If you are sick and tired of having no control over yourself, I invite you into the world of the freed.

 

[Hopeful]

i would word that differently - none of the temple service laws apply to anyone who is not of the tribe of levi AND working in the temple - as there is no temple

if there was a temple and you were a nt believer and a levite the laws would apply to you

Why would the lack of a temple throttle your prescribed services to God?
You don't need a "building" to serve God with sacrifices and offerings.
As a Gentile NT believer, I wouldn't be allowed in the temple by the Jewish OT believers. Those abiding by the Law you ascribe to.
It was written..."Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place." (Acts 21:28)

the laws for marriage do not apply to any single person as they are not married

And the rest of the Mosaic Laws don't apply to me because I am dead to the Law.
As Paul wrote..."Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Rom 7:4-6)
I now serve God in newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the Mosaic Law.

but all laws are your choice to live by - God is not going to force you to keep them - God only said those who break the laws and teach others to do so are the least in God's kingdom - Matthew 5:19

Agreed.
If we feel like going back and revisiting the tenets of the OT, we are welcome to pretend they still apply to us.
But to think that somehow pleases God, whose Son was killed to free us from the Law, is must distasteful.

the first nt believers were almost all jews who went to synagogue each shabbat and kept God's laws - they were called a sect of judaism THE WAY - Acts 24:14

I have never seen the "way" capitalized or used as anything but an adjective.
Acts 24:14, in the KJV..."But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:"
Your version has, shall we say, taken liberties with both the wording and intent of the verse.

everyone knew which of God's laws applied to them

Agreed.
We all have a conscience.

the religious leaders also made up heavy burdensome laws to put on the people which the leaders themselves did not keep - thus God called them hypocrites - Matthew 23:4 - Matthew 15:3 - Matthew 15:6

Jesus did indeed call them hypocrites.
Do you feel the "unjust" laws count less then the other rules of the OT?
As Jesus commanded the OT crowd, "Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not." (Matt 23:1-3)

 

[Hopeful]

they were the spiritual and social government of the day - you as a nt are told to obey your government too - Romans 13:1 - Matthew 17:27

That didn't answer my question.
If you "must" obey some rules, who decides which ones not to obey?

 

[Hopeful]

sacrifices can only be made 1x per year at the temple in jerusalem by the priests for the people - God forbids everyone from making sacrifices on their own - now that there is no temple there are no sacrifices - that is the beauty of God's laws - even the sacrificial laws - God makes sure that there is no more sacrifices

Your POV only covers the formal sacrifices the sinners required every year, and doesn't take into account that we can sacrifice all day long now.
Different kinds of sacrifice, I guess.
It is written..."By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name." (Heb 13:15)

All I'm saying is that if you believe you are profiting from of one aspect of the Law, you must partake of all of it.

 

[for_his_glory]

I will maintain that the evil present in no one follows any moral imperatives and is not capable of doing so.

Evil can not be present in a Spiritually born again child of God who is indwelled with the Holy Spirit. If we follow the greatest commandment of love then we take the love and walk in obedience to the moral parts of the laws.

 

[for_his_glory]

Judging from your last post, that "obey" must only be partial.

Back on topic...

I am on topic as we are talking about the laws of God. Which post of mine are you referring to? I am talking about the moral laws that are within the 613 laws that we are to be obedient to as within the greatest commandment of love that we obey those moral parts.

 

[for_his_glory]

smaller are God's laws rooted in allegory, parable, similitude, figures and the like?

rooted in allegory, parable, similitude, figures and the like

 

[jaybo]

I am on topic as we are talking about the laws of God. Which post of mine are you referring to? I am talking about the moral laws that are within the 613 laws that we are to be obedient to as within the greatest commandment of love that we obey those moral parts.

The Law, a.k.a., the Mosaic law, the Torah, is the Law in its entirety. I don't think it's appropriate to say that some of the Mosaic law is relevant and some is not relevant. If you go down that path, how does one decide which of God's laws to follow and which to disregard.

A Christian is supposed to be dead to the Law but alive to God in Christ Jesus. "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God." Romans 7:4

It doesn't make any distinctions about moral laws and immoral(?) laws. There is one OT law and Christians are supposed to be dead to it and alive to God in Christ Jesus. I suggest that you read the many sections where Jesus pointed out that the experts in the Law missed the coming of the Messiah who was standing right in front of them.

Keeping the law means nothing now that Christ has come!

Mark 10:19-21, "You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.’” The man said to him, “Teacher, I have wholeheartedly obeyed all these laws since my youth.” As Jesus looked at him, he felt love for him and said, “You lack one thing. Go, sell whatever you have and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

Obviously one can be a pious keeper of the law but that is futile without Christ.

 

[for_his_glory]

The Law, a.k.a., the Mosaic law, the Torah, is the Law in its entirety. I don't think it's appropriate to say that some of the Mosaic law is relevant and some is not relevant. If you go down that path, how does one decide which of God's laws to follow and which to disregard.

A Christian is supposed to be dead to the Law but alive to God in Christ Jesus. "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God." Romans 7:4

It doesn't make any distinctions about moral laws and immoral(?) laws. There is one OT law and Christians are supposed to be dead to it and alive to God in Christ Jesus. I suggest that you read the many sections where Jesus pointed out that the experts in the Law missed the coming of the Messiah who was standing right in front of them.

Keeping the law means nothing now that Christ has come!

Mark 10:19-21, "You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.’” The man said to him, “Teacher, I have wholeheartedly obeyed all these laws since my youth.” As Jesus looked at him, he felt love for him and said, “You lack one thing. Go, sell whatever you have and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

Obviously one can be a pious keeper of the law but that is futile without Christ.

apparently no one has read my post about what laws we are still to obey whether we are Gentile or Jew so I am going to just sit quiet unless I need to further reply.

Page 16 and only repeating ourselves, as no one is listening to each other or even trying to understanding each other.