I don't see anything in Scripture that says that Christian Jews and Christian Gentiles are under different laws. There is no need to obey any OT laws, regardless of being Jew or Gentile. One must choose between obeying external laws or obeying the Holy Spirit. You can't be guided by the OT laws (plural, external) and be guided by the Holy Spirit (singular, internal); they are antithetical.apparently no one has read my post about what laws we are still to obey whether we are Gentile or Jew so I am going to just sit quiet unless I need to further reply.
Page 16 and only repeating ourselves, as no one is listening to each other or even trying to understanding each other.
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Are you taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Wearing the right shoes, and properly clothed spiritually?
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Is the Law of God dead? And if yes, how?
- Thread starter Rajesh Sahu
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I explained all of this in post # 282 and 291 of what we are to obey within the greatest commandment of love. The only laws that Christ has fulfilled so far are the Temple laws.
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
In post #302, you inferred that perfect obedience isn't possible.
But in post #315 you laid out how it can be possible.
Which is true?
smaller
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Absolutely, they are all rooted in such matters, incredibly deep and vastly interesting
We obviously do not cast literal pearls before literal swine now, do we?
smaller
Member
I just read the obvious, and accept that if that was Paul's condition, it's mine as well. And others, of course. Nothing personal mind you. I believe the evil present within any of us is directly sourced to the tempter, our adversary.
Romans 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
For me it's a much better relationship with God in Christ if I'm not being pawned into various forms of coverups, denials and excuses
I will also maintain that no one is righteous, no, not one. And that is because the evil present within no one can be obedient or moral whatsoever. It's not even possible.
We can be dominant over it. That's the best we're offered. But we will all wrestle with this matter til the day we depart our flesh
smaller
Member
I've found that if I'm not in denial about the existence of temptations within, and those being of the tempter, even demonic if you prefer, it's a much more honest approach to God, knowing that God resists and even HATES that part of what goes on within me.
I'm good with God's Resistance, and even His Hatred, personally applied. Because I know that hatred is directed to the tempter and his own.
Luke 14:
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
There is ample cause to hate, I can assure you.
For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind. 2 Timothy 1:7
God has blessed us with a new nature in Christ, and filled us with His Spirit.
Why would you think a demon has to be in a Christian to tempt him.
Jesus was tempted by the devil but that doesn’t mean the devil was in Christ.
Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. And when He had fasted forty days and forty nights, afterward He was hungry. Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.”
But He answered and said, “It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ”
Matthew 4:1-4
The devil was no match for Jesus and fled from Him. The same goes for those who are born again and have Jesus Christ dwelling in them.
Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.
James 4:7
We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. 1 John 5:18
Your doctrine is not from God.
JLB
We're going to have to disagree on this as we see things totally differently. IMHO Christ has fulfilled all the laws -- He is God after all. Christians are either under law or under grace. There is no partial fulfillment. I'm done discussing this.
After reading all 613 laws I read them as all being literal, but some for the Jews before Messiah come and some for both Jew and Gentile after Christ came to fulfill the righteousness of the laws. Jesus fulfilled the Temple laws and sacrifices, but yet there are the existing moral parts of the law we are still to obey within the greatest commandment of love.
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Both.
Sinless "perfection" means the condition, state, or quality of being free or as free as possible from all flaws or defects. The action or "process" of improving something until it is faultless or as faultless as possible.
1John 3:9-10 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
Do we willingly continue in our sins once we are Spiritually born again from above? No, for if we do then there is no more sacrifice for sin, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Hebrews 10:26-27.
We now have an Advocate (Christ Jesus) that sits at the right hand of the Father making intercession for us when we do sin at times. 1John 2:1-2. Grace does not give us a license to sin, but yet being housed in this fleshly body that is still mortal and corruptible where the sin nature dwells we will stumble at times. We are only being made perfect until we receive perfection in Christ when our redemption draws near in the coming of the Lord. 1 Corinthians 15:51-55.
1Peter 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
The word "holiness" means set apart or purposefully different. It doesn't mean "perfection". God being holy and perfect means He is completely different than the imperfect world we live in and He is perfect, meaning He upholds every aspect of righteousness all the time because He is God. It is that same perfection that is seen in the Father that we strive for everyday of our lives here on earth. We are made righteous by that of God's righteousness as our own is as a filthy rag to God.
While here on earth we do strive to be holy as we draw closer to God and learn of Him, but yet we will never achieve full perfection until this corruptible puts on incorruption, and this mortal puts on immortality. This can only happen when Christ returns and we are changed by the Holy Spirit to be then made perfect as we are caught up into the clouds to meet Jesus in the air.
God knows we will stumble and fall short at times as we are yet humans, but God is greater than the mistakes we make and is always there to pick us up, dust us off and set our feet straight again when we humble ourselves before Him. All our sins have been forgiven and we have been made clean again in our spirit by the blood of Christ as we are Spiritually born again from above and sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption, Ephesians 4:30.
That which you struggle with in this world the battle belongs to the Lord and He will always walk with you no matter what you are going through as He will bring you out victorious over the enemy that tries to buffet us.
2 Corinthians 12:9 Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2 Corinthians 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
1Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
I am dropping out of this thread. If you want to continue, as a Christian to put yourself under the law then I feel, with sadness, that you have missed the fundamental truth of the New Covenant: Christians are not under the Law, we're under grace. Putting yourself back under the law (which Christ died to free us from) is a serious, tragic mistake.
Quoting four verses from Matthew, the Gospel that was written to the Jews, quoting what Jesus said to the (Unsaved) Jews, and accepting that as doctrine for the New Covenant, is a serious mistake.
Paul wrote this: "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God." Romans 7:4 Nothing could be plainer.
He also wrote his letter to the Galatians, which expounds on this further. Here is the beginning of chapter 3...
"You foolish Galatians! Who has cast a spell on you? Before your eyes Jesus Christ was vividly portrayed as crucified! The only thing I want to learn from you is this: Did you receive the Spirit by doing the works of the law or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? Although you began with the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by human effort? Have you suffered so many things for nothing?—if indeed it was for nothing. Does God then give you the Spirit and work miracles among you by your doing the works of the law or by your believing what you heard?
And slightly farther down "Now before faith came we were held in custody under the law, being kept as prisoners until the coming faith would be revealed. Thus the law had become our guardian until Christ, so that we could be declared righteous by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.
You can't be governed by the Law and be governed by faith. They are mutually incompatible. Period.
Read that again. Evil is present with me, not within me. Big difference my friend. This is why we can not read scripture with preconceived ideas.
Here is another example of your misunderstanding as God does not want us to literally hate our family, but to give Him first place above them as God has to come first in our lives.
Never said we are under all 613, but only that of the 23 moral laws as we walk in love, but for some reason everyone thinks I am speaking about all 613. I will post them one more time.
Prayers and blessings, love and brotherhood. The poor and unfortunate, treatment of the Gentiles, Marriage, divorce and family. Forbidden sexual relations, business practices, employees and servants. Vows, oaths, swearing, Court and Judicial procedures. Injuries and damages, property and property rights, criminal laws. Prophecy, idolatry and all its practices as the moral laws (commandments) keep us in line with the will of God.
Are we not to be obedient to the above laws as we walk in the greatest commandment of love. This is what I am talking about.
Are we not to be obedient to the above laws as we walk in the greatest commandment of love. This is what I am talking about.
Eddie42
Member
I believe we all know God's law existed prior to the Law of Moses. The basics of the Ten Commandments are found in Genesis, such as work 6 days, the 7th is rest; and it's not tied to a day of the week of some calendar in Genesis. V15 mentions the sins of Gentiles and the Gentiles were not given the Law of Moses, Rom. 2:14; so I take it that the law of God found in Genesis would be what was written in man's heart from the beginning. In the YLT the definite article 'the' is not included and it is not in the Greek in these verses you quote. What I'm getting at is making any act or work a law for Christians for justification would be wrong. The prime example that I've encountered in the past is, the teaching that our sins are forgiven by the water baptism, and if a person openly professes his belief and has true faith in Jesus Christ as his Savior; but dies in a car wreck before being baptized, he'll go to hell. I take it that law, as Paul mentions here would include such a man-made law supposedly based on the NT wording and not to be specifically tied to Mosaic Law. I know I've worded this clumsily, but maybe it is understandable. I also wonder at times when Paul speaks of the law, is he speaking from his background as a Jew and Pharisee?
Truthfrees
Member
true - and i do partake of all of it as God instructed - you were talking about animal sacrifices and i was explaining them - they had to be done specifically at specific times by specific people at a specific place - it any of those 4 components was not available a sacrifice could not be made
each law God spoke had to be done specifically as instructed - i get the imprecise attitude of anti-nomians don't realize how precise God's laws are
the sacrifice of praise for sure can be done continually - in fact paul commanded it - Hebrews 13:15-17 - i'm not sure if you realize how many commands paul gave nt believers - nor how each pauline command correlates with a torah command - Psalm 34:1 - iow every command paul gives God already gave in torah - which means paul was teaching torah to gentiles who did not know torah
Truthfrees
Member
i wasn't trying to answer your question - i was making a point of my own
but to answer your question God decides which ones you must obey - for example if God gives a command to married men God has already decided it was only for married men - if God gives a command to farmers God has already decided the command is only for farmers - if God gave a command to judges God decided already that only judges needed to follow this command
what makes you think every command God made applies to every male female adult child alive? - perhaps if you read all of God's commands at least once you will see for yourself that each command is extremely specific -
Truthfrees
Member
God said it does - so maybe you think God's laws are flexible and subject to man-made alterations but they aren't - that is the meaning of obey God - DON'T do your best version of God's laws - do exactly what God says in the way He said it with the attitude He says to have when doing it
God's laws are so easy to keep - you have to bend them and twist them to make them difficult and burdensome - God said to live by every word that comes from His mouth - not your version of what God said
Bring on the sheep, goats, grain, etc., as these are the sacrifices demanded by God for sin.
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