Is the Law of God dead? And if yes, how?

[Truthfrees]

Bring on the sheep, goats, grain, etc., as these are the sacrifices demanded by God for sin.

done only at the temple at jerusalem - is there a temple at jerusalem? - no - so what does that mean? - like i said stop bending God's words to suit self - anti-nomians don't even read God's laws - how can you say what any of them mean if you don't read them?

and then to understand them you have to live them - again another thing anti-nomians don't do - so how can any anti-nomian say anything at all about God's words -

funny how there are no ex-nomians - meaning anyone who keeps God's laws keeps doing it - they never find a reason to turn away from God's laws - they are so good - so easy - so blessed - the rewards for keeping God's laws make people never want to quit

 

[jaybo]

done only at the temple at jerusalem - is there a temple at jerusalem? - no - so what does that mean? - like i said stop bending God's words to suit self - anti-nomians don't even read God's laws - how can you say what any of them mean if you don't read them?

and then to understand them you have to live them - again another thing anti-nomians don't do - so how can any anti-nomian say anything at all about God's words -

funny how there are no ex-nomians - meaning anyone who keeps God's laws keeps doing it - they never find a reason to turn away from God's laws - they are so good - so easy - so blessed - the rewards for keeping God's laws make people never want to quit

So now we're using labels? I can call you a pro-nomian, accuse you of bending God's words to suit self, and claim that you can't say what any of them mean if you read them. Do you know what that accomplishes? Nothing except resentment. Then you say that anti-nomians can't say anything at all about God's words, which borders on insult and bigotry. Do you have a such a clear understanding of God's words? In my opinion, you're a Christian who has no understanding of law versus grace. (See how easy it is to label someone and insult them?)

I would be tempted, if you weren't a moderator, to report your post. You will not win over anyone by insulting them and accusing them of not understanding the Bible because they don't agree with you.

If you want to continue to keep the law, why not just convert to Judaism?

"For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace." Romans 6:14 written to Christians!

 

[Hopeful]

I've found that if I'm not in denial about the existence of temptations within, and those being of the tempter, even demonic if you prefer, it's a much more honest approach to God, knowing that God resists and even HATES that part of what goes on within me.

I'm good with God's Resistance, and even His Hatred, personally applied. Because I know that hatred is directed to the tempter and his own.

Luke 14:
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

There is ample cause to hate, I can assure you.

I can't figure out why you say temptation is from within.
It is brought on by lusts which those who are in Christ have crucified.
"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)

Temptation comes from without, ie. from the things of this world.
"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." (1 John 2:16)

 

[Hopeful]

Both.

Perfect obedience can't be "possible" and "impossible" at the same time.

Sinless "perfection" means the condition, state, or quality of being free or as free as possible from all flaws or defects.

Exactly.

The action or "process" of improving something until it is faultless or as faultless as possible.

That is "perfecting", not perfect.
As those born of God's seed start out perfectly sinless, no other perfecting is required.

1John 3:9-10 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

So why did you respond with "Both"?

Do we willingly continue in our sins once we are Spiritually born again from above? No, for if we do then there is no more sacrifice for sin, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Hebrews 10:26-27.

There was also no rebirth from Gods seed, as one is still bringing forth the fruit of Adam.

We now have an Advocate (Christ Jesus) that sits at the right hand of the Father making intercession for us when we do sin at times. 1John 2:1-2. Grace does not give us a license to sin, but yet being housed in this fleshly body that is still mortal and corruptible where the sin nature dwells we will stumble at times. We are only being made perfect until we receive perfection in Christ when our redemption draws near in the coming of the Lord. 1 Corinthians 15:51-55.

The only folks who need an Advocate for sin are the unreborn.
I have used the Advocate, by the grace of God, and became a Christian.
I can't keep using it, as you already said..."there is no other sacrifice". (Heb 10:26-27)
Now you are changing the topic form perfect sinlessness to perfect vessels.
We will NOT be judged on our looks or on the balance in our checkbooks, car we drive, home, or any other "vessel" related topic.
Perfect obedience comes in the oldest, most tarnished vessels.
We WILL be judged for sinning.

1Peter 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Obey and live.
Disobey and die a second death.

The word "holiness" means set apart or purposefully different. It doesn't mean "perfection". God being holy and perfect means He is completely different than the imperfect world we live in and He is perfect, meaning He upholds every aspect of righteousness all the time because He is God. It is that same perfection that is seen in the Father that we strive for everyday of our lives here on earth. We are made righteous by that of God's righteousness as our own is as a filthy rag to God.

That holiness is as much ours as it was Jesus'.
We are of the same seed as Christ Jesus.

While here on earth we do strive to be holy as we draw closer to God and learn of Him, but yet we will never achieve full perfection until this corruptible puts on incorruption, and this mortal puts on immortality. This can only happen when Christ returns and we are changed by the Holy Spirit to be then made perfect as we are caught up into the clouds to meet Jesus in the air.

I do so look forward to my glorified body.
But my present body has no impact on my deeds.

God knows we will stumble and fall short at times as we are yet humans,...

That is a lie !!!!
He knows we have the power to resist temptation, always.

...but God is greater than the mistakes we make and is always there to pick us up, dust us off and set our feet straight again when we humble ourselves before Him. All our sins have been forgiven and we have been made clean again in our spirit by the blood of Christ as we are Spiritually born again from above and sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption, Ephesians 4:30.

You are talking out of both sides of your mouth.
Your POV is that we can obey God for little amounts of time, but will always fail.
How anti-power of God in our lives is that?

That which you struggle with in this world the battle belongs to the Lord and He will always walk with you no matter what you are going through as He will bring you out victorious over the enemy that tries to buffet us.2 Corinthians 12:9 Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me
2 Corinthians 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

And you have even posted verses to prove MY POV.

1Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The condition of our fading, age reflecting, breaking down, dying body, has no impact on our judgement.
You are erroneously inferring "sin" in place of growing old and feeble / "corruption".

 

[Hopeful]

Read that again. Evil is present with me, not within me. Big difference my friend. This is why we can not read scripture with preconceived ideas.

It is also from Paul's perspective of his pre-converted life.

 

[Hopeful]

true - and i do partake of all of it as God instructed - you were talking about animal sacrifices and i was explaining them - they had to be done specifically at specific times by specific people at a specific place - it any of those 4 components was not available a sacrifice could not be made

each law God spoke had to be done specifically as instructed - i get the imprecise attitude of anti-nomians don't realize how precise God's laws are

the sacrifice of praise for sure can be done continually - in fact paul commanded it - Hebrews 13:15-17 - i'm not sure if you realize how many commands paul gave nt believers - nor how each pauline command correlates with a torah command - Psalm 34:1 - iow every command paul gives God already gave in torah - which means paul was teaching torah to gentiles who did not know torah

The teachings in our hearts are the same as the teachings from Paul's heart.
We would know these things without Paul or the Torah.

 

[Hopeful]

i wasn't trying to answer your question - i was making a point of my own

but to answer your question God decides which ones you must obey - for example if God gives a command to married men God has already decided it was only for married men - if God gives a command to farmers God has already decided the command is only for farmers - if God gave a command to judges God decided already that only judges needed to follow this command

what makes you think every command God made applies to every male female adult child alive? - perhaps if you read all of God's commands at least once you will see for yourself that each command is extremely specific -

Perhaps specific, but summed up with Love God with your whole strength and love your neighbor as yourself.
Other "laws" are superfluous.

 

[Hopeful]

God said it does - so maybe you think God's laws are flexible and subject to man-made alterations but they aren't - that is the meaning of obey God - DON'T do your best version of God's laws - do exactly what God says in the way He said it with the attitude He says to have when doing it

God's laws are so easy to keep - you have to bend them and twist them to make them difficult and burdensome - God said to live by every word that comes from His mouth - not your version of what God said

As I told Rajesh Sahu at the start of this thread, you need to be precise about WHICH law you are talking about.
The 613?
The big 9?
The rules and customs of the Pharisees?

 

[for_his_glory]

I believe we all know God's law existed prior to the Law of Moses.

I am glad you brought that up, because before there was a Jacob/Israel nation there were no divisions of Jew or Gentile as neither one existed.

www.jewfaq.org

Noahic (Noah) Commandments are seven commandments first given to Adam by God before the flood and brought to remembrance by God to Noah after the flood, which are now binding on both Jew and Gentile as there were no Jew or Gentile in the days of Noah, and none today on this side of the cross as we are all one in the Spirit of God, Galatians 3:28. Abraham was the first one to be called a Hebrew, Genesis 14:13, and until the days of Jacob there was no land called Israel or any laws pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite as none of that existed yet. What there were was seven to begin with that are the laws that are written on our heart. Laws were added to as the generations grew until there became 613 that became a curse as no one could ever follow all of them.

Beginning with Genesis 2:16 the Babylonian Talmud listed six commandments given first to Adam and then again to Noah after the flood. The seven make up the first parts of the ten that God gave to Moses on Mt Sinai in Exodus 20. Below is a comparison list of the seven and the full ten which are all a part of the 613 laws given to Moses as some were for the Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite and then there are the existing moral laws (commandments) for all, Jew and Gentile to follow that are written upon our heart. Christ did not come to destroy all the laws, but to fulfill the righteousness of the laws, Matthew 5:17-22.

Noahic Laws:
Not to worship idols.
Not to curse God.
To establish courts of justice.
Not to commit murder.
Not to commit adultery or sexual immorality.
Not to steal.
Not to eat flesh torn from a living animal.

Mt. Sinai Laws:
You shall have no other gods before Me.
You shall not make idols.
You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Honor your father and your mother.
You shall not murder.
You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal.
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
You shall not covet.


Part of the ten laws broken down to various commands within one law:
Other gods and idols are as one not to worship, but broke down into two commands
Remember the Sabbath was added to the ten commandments by God as a remembrance of all God did in six days (Gods timing) and rested on the seventh, Genesis 2:1-3; Matthew 12:1-13
To establish courts of justice was only given to Noah for the new generations to come after the flood
Honor your father and mother was not given to Noah, but was added to the ten commandments by God as the generations grew.
Not to covet was added to the ten commandments by God, but broke down into seven commands as your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.

 

[jaybo]

Read that again. Evil is present with me, not within me. Big difference my friend. This is why we can not read scripture with preconceived ideas.

"

"I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good." Romans 7:21 NASB

"But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members." Romans 7:23, KJV

"but I see a different law in the parts of my body waging war against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin, the law which is in my body’s parts." Romans 7:23 NASB

"But I see a different law in my members waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that is in my members." Romans 7:23 NET

"but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me." Romans 7:23 NIV

"but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind, making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members." Romans 7:23 NRSV

"but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members." Romans 7:23 NASB

 

[for_his_glory]

You are kidding yourself.
Perfect obedience can't be "possible" and "impossible" at the same time.

Exactly.

That is "perfecting", not perfect.
As those born of God's seed start out perfectly sinless, no other perfecting is required.

So why did you respond with "Both"?

There was also no rebirth from Gods seed, as one is still bringing forth the fruit of Adam.

The only folks who need an Advocate for sin are the unreborn.
I have used the Advocate, by the grace of God, and became a Christian.
I can't keep using it, as you already said..."there is no other sacrifice". (Heb 10:26-27)
Now you are changing the topic form perfect sinlessness to perfect vessels.
We will NOT be judged on our looks or on the balance in our checkbooks, car we drive, home, or any other "vessel" related topic.
Perfect obedience comes in the oldest, most tarnished vessels.
We WILL be judged for sinning.

Obey and live.
Disobey and die a second death.

That holiness is as much ours as it was Jesus'.
We are of the same seed as Christ Jesus.

I do so look forward to my glorified body.
But my present body has no impact on my deeds.

That is a lie !!!!
He knows we have the power to resist temptation, always.

You are talking out of both sides of your mouth.
Your POV is that we can obey God for little amounts of time, but will always fail.
How anti-power of God in our lives is that?

And you have even posted verses to prove MY POV.

The condition of our fading, age reflecting, breaking down, dying body, has no impact on our judgement.
You are erroneously inferring "sin" in place of growing old and feeble / "corruption".

We have been through this so many times over the years so I will back out of the teaching of sinless perfection that you prefer to believe in.

 

[JLB]

JLB, you are certainly welcome to claim and continue to claim you are free from temptations of the tempter.

That's just it, I have never claimed any such thing.

Anyone reading my post can see this.


Of course, you know this. It's your ploy to distract from the fact that born again Christians who are empowered by the Holy Spirit are not indwelt with demons, and can resist the devil and he will flee.

Your "doctrine" teaches God's people that they are inhabited by demons.


This is false doctrine.




JLB

 

[JLB]

"

"I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good." Romans 7:21 NASB

"But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members." Romans 7:23, KJV

"but I see a different law in the parts of my body waging war against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin, the law which is in my body’s parts." Romans 7:23 NASB

"But I see a different law in my members waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that is in my members." Romans 7:23 NET

"but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me." Romans 7:23 NIV

"but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind, making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members." Romans 7:23 NRSV

"but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members." Romans 7:23 NASB

It's abundantly clear that your interpretation is wrong, as shown in multiple versions
This is why we can not read scripture with preconceived ideas.

The evil is sin.

The sin Paul is referring to is in the members of his body.




JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

It is also from Paul's perspective of his pre-converted life.

I disagree as Paul was already converted when he wrote this as he, like all of us struggle with sin. Evil is always present with us as we are tempted everyday by the evil forces of Satan. Evil is not within us as that would mean since we are created in God's image, part of His image would have to be evil. Evil can not be within the inner man that is Spiritual. So then with the mind I/we our self serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Just like Paul and everyone that has ever lived and died,

Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. (with me, Not within me)
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: (inward man relating to the spirit or soul, dwelling place of the Holy Spirit)
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. (sin in our flesh that is not subject to the Spirit)
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? (happens at the last trump when we are changed)
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. (with the Spiritual mind of Christ I serve the law with the greatest commandment of love)

1Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[for_his_glory]

So now we're using labels? I can call you a pro-nomian, accuse you of bending God's words to suit self, and claim that you can't say what any of them mean if you read them. Do you know what that accomplishes? Nothing except resentment. Then you say that anti-nomians can't say anything at all about God's words, which borders on insult and bigotry. Do you have a such a clear understanding of God's words? In my opinion, you're a Christian who has no understanding of law versus grace. (See how easy it is to label someone and insult them?)

I would be tempted, if you weren't a moderator, to report your post. You will not win over anyone by insulting them and accusing them of not understanding the Bible because they don't agree with you.

If you want to continue to keep the law, why not just convert to Judaism?

"For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace." Romans 6:14 written to Christians!

Antinomian is one who takes the principal of salvation by faith and divine grace to the point of asserting that the saved are not bound to follow the moral laws. This is what a few of you are doing as you believe that Jesus has already fulfilled all the laws, but that comes against what Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-20.

No violations in what Truthfrees said.

 

[Hopeful]

"

"I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good." Romans 7:21 NASB

"But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members." Romans 7:23, KJV

This lament is clearly from Paul's pre-conversion life, as Romans 8:2 provides the answer to the "law of sin".
It is written..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."

 

[Hopeful]

The evil is sin.

The sin Paul is referring to is in the members of his body.

A "law" he has been freed from..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." (Rom 8:2)

 

[Hopeful]

I disagree as Paul was already converted when he wrote this

Paul wrote..."For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death." (Rom 7:5)
Paul is referencing his pre-conversion past.

as he, like all of us struggle with sin. Evil is always present with us as we are tempted everyday by the evil forces of Satan. Evil is not within us as that would mean since we are created in God's image, part of His image would have to be evil. Evil can not be within the inner man that is Spiritual. So then with the mind I/we our self serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Just like Paul and everyone that has ever lived and died,

So which controls you?
Your mind or your skin and bones?

Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. (with me, Not within me)
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: (inward man relating to the spirit or soul, dwelling place of the Holy Spirit)
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. (sin in our flesh that is not subject to the Spirit)

A "law" he writes he is free of in Rom 8:2..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? (happens at the last trump when we are changed)

Already answered in Rom 6:6...Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. (with the Spiritual mind of Christ I serve the law with the greatest commandment of love)

Thanks be to God that he already wrote "when we were in the flesh", (Ro 7:5), making it clear he isn't in the flesh anymore.
That way nobody can confuse him or his writings as being about his post-conversion walk.

1Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The vessel fades and turns to dust...it is not immortal.
The vessel is not "ME".
It is simply my means of locomotion.
It can't cause me to commit sin.

 

[smaller]

After reading all 613 laws I read them as all being literal

Scripture is both literal and spiritual. We can accept the literal nature of the law and simultaneously accept its condemnation of evil and lawlessness, internally i.e. spiritually applied. Romans 3:19

People can claim they are not under the law, but God does not and will not see it that way at all.

And people can claim they are lawful, and again, God would probably get a good chuckle out of that claim

The law is meant for condemning evil lawlessness, and it will do exactly that regardless

It is only the deceit we bear in our own flesh that thinks we can avoid that conclusion

The heart is deceitful above all things...Jer. 17:9

 

[smaller]

Read that again. Evil is present with me, not within me. Big difference my friend. This is why we can not read scripture with preconceived ideas.

I see. So you think evil was not present withIN Paul, but in those around him, which for some reason he forgot to include in his statement, and in disregard to every manner of concupiscence in his mind in Romans 7:7-13 and the sin in his flesh in Romans 7:17-20, including the evil that he did, present tense?

That's novel, but I'd suggest a substantial miss