Is the Law of God dead? And if yes, how?

[smaller]

Here is another example of your misunderstanding as God does not want us to literally hate our family, but to give Him first place above them as God has to come first in our lives.

I'm pretty certain God hates the evil present and indwelling sin in everyone, and we should as well, and yes, it means hate

I know it's problematic for most of us to understand a love/hate relationship with God, but it's a far more accurate sight.

When we understand that sin is of the devil, it's much easier to see "WHO" is hated. 1 John 3:8

We just happen to be in the same pair of shoes as the tempter. Another problematic matter to come to grips with, because it's a real matter, unseen, internal

We are only dominant when we actually see this matter. Otherwise we remain under the covers of deception

 

[smaller]

I can't figure out why you say temptation is from within.

Cited previously, that evil thoughts defile us. Thoughts are obviously internal

It is brought on by lusts which those who are in Christ have crucified.
"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)

Sin is a progression from thought to word to deed. Sin nevertheless every step of the way

Temptation comes from without, ie. from the things of this world.
"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." (1 John 2:16)

We are not exempt from temptations of the tempter transpiring in mind. We do have an adversary, and we wrestle that battle internally.

You are welcome to claim you are exempt. I don't see it that way.

Paul tells us exactly how internal defilement works in Romans 7:7-13. Internally, in thoughts

So does Jesus in:
Matthew 15:19-20,
Mark 7:21-23
Matthew 5:28

The only exemption was Jesus. That's why we listen to Him.

The law still causes thoughts against the law to transpire internally, just like clockwork

The evil present in no man is obedient to the law, and never will be, in the truest sense. Internally. It is not even remotely possible.

The evil conscience is a hard line human fact and condition

It's also why we should trust no man, not even ourselves

 

[smaller]

That's just it, I have never claimed any such thing.

Well great. Then maybe after all these years we agree

But you see, the thing is, I'm not about to let the tempter off the hook, even if that temptations transpires within my own mind.

 

[stovebolts]

[ACMP=reminder]

Well great. Then maybe after all these years we agree

But you see, the thing is, I'm not about to let the tempter off the hook, even if that temptations transpires within my own mind.

Alright, let’s get back on topic now. If you wish to create a new thread on that topic, please do.
[/ACMP]

 

[Truthfrees]

So now we're using labels? I can call you a pro-nomian, accuse you of bending God's words to suit self, and claim that you can't say what any of them mean if you read them. Do you know what that accomplishes? Nothing except resentment. Then you say that anti-nomians can't say anything at all about God's words, which borders on insult and bigotry. Do you have a such a clear understanding of God's words? In my opinion, you're a Christian who has no understanding of law versus grace. (See how easy it is to labels someone and insult them?)

I would be tempted, if you weren't a moderator, to report your post. You will not win over anyone by insulting them and accusing them of not understanding the Bible because they don't agree with you.

If you want to continue to keep the law, why not just convert to Judaism?

it wasn't an insult - check out what anti-nomian means - i am pro nomian - it is an accurate label - and anti-nomian is what you teach - all the apostles and first believers were a pro-nomian sect of judaism called THE WAY - as am i if there needs to be further labels - Acts 24:14 - Acts 21:20

and God said its better to be a pro-nomian than an anti-nomian - Matthew 5:19

as far as GRACE (God's divine ability working in man) - i am grace
i am also walk in the Spirit not the flesh/sin/death - aka God's ability rather than human ability
and i am nomian - live by EVERY word that comes from God's mouth

 

[for_his_glory]

I'm pretty certain God hates the evil present and indwelling sin in everyone, and we should as well, and yes, it means hate

I know it's problematic for most of us to understand a love/hate relationship with God, but it's a far more accurate sight.

When we understand that sin is of the devil, it's much easier to see "WHO" is hated. 1 John 3:8

We just happen to be in the same pair of shoes as the tempter. Another problematic matter to come to grips with, because it's a real matter, unseen, internal

We are only dominant when we actually see this matter. Otherwise we remain under the covers of deception

You believe in what you want and I the same as we will never see eye to eye on this subject of the law so for now I will graciously leave our conversation for now.

God bless you and yours.

 

[Truthfrees]

The teachings in our hearts are the same as the teachings from Paul's heart.
We would know these things without Paul or the Torah.

correct - so then you too should be able to say with confidence like paul - do we void the law no we establish it - Romans 3:31 - and you too should be able to say with confidence that God is right when He said he who keeps God's laws and teaches them is great in the kingdom - Matthew 5:19 - because man lives by Every word that comes from God's mouth - Matthew 4:4

re: sacrifices - there have been no animal sacrifices since after the crucifixion - the romans forbade them at first and 100 years later the temple was destroyed so they can never again be made - talk about divine timing? - and all in accordance with God's laws regarding sacrifices

 

[Truthfrees]

Perhaps specific, but summed up with Love God with your whole strength and love your neighbor as yourself.
Other "laws" are superfluous.

i would word it differently - i agree with summed up - 100% with you on that

if you want to know the details look up each law to see what God has to say - because nothing God said was ever superfluous - He is the most succinct communicator ever

 

[jaybo]

correct - so then you too should be able to say with confidence like paul - do we void the law no we establish it - Romans 3:31 - and you too should be able to say with confidence that God is right when He said he who keeps God's laws and teaches them is greatest in the kingdom - Matthew 5:19 - because man lives by Every word that comes from God's mouth - Matthew 4:4

re: sacrifices - there have been no animal sacrifices since after the crucifixion - the romans forbade them at first and 100 years later the temple was destroyed so they can never again be made - talk about divine timing? - and all in accordance with God's laws regarding sacrifices

Didn't you forget Romans 3:31, "For we consider that a person is declared righteous by faith apart from the works of the law."

How about Romans 7:6, "But now we have been released from the law, because we have died to what controlled us, so that we may serve in the new life of the Spirit and not under the old written code."

Or Galatians 5:18, "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law."

 

[Truthfrees]

As I told Rajesh Sahu at the start of this thread, you need to be precise about WHICH law you are talking about.
The 613?
The big 9?
The rules and customs of the Pharisees?

every word that came from the mouth of God - Matthew 4:4 - all holy and pure - Psalm 19:7 - Romans 7:12

not traditions or man-made laws - or even strange interpretation by man of God's holy laws

 

[Truthfrees]

Didn't you forget Romans 3:31, "For we consider that a person is declared righteous by faith apart from the works of the law."

correct - no one ever could - ever can be right with God by the works of the law - faith alone makes one right with God - from abraham to present day - actually from adam and eve - their sin was they did not believe God they believed the devil

God never said even one time that keeping the law saves anyone -

 

[Truthfrees]

How about Romans 7:6, "But now we have been released from the law, because we have died to what controlled us, so that we may serve in the new life of the Spirit and not under the old written code."

released from the law of sin and death which comes by trying to be saved by keeping God's holy laws of life by the flesh - rather than simply living God's laws by the power of His Holy Spirit - Psalm 119:9

 

[Truthfrees]

Or Galatians 5:18, "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law."

the law of sin and death - if you walk by the Spirit you will live God's laws by the Spirit and not be under the law of sin and death - or the curse of the law - or anything that comes by walking in the flesh which is the epitome of lawlessness

 

[jaybo]

the law of sin and death - if you walk by the Spirit you will live God's laws by the Spirit and not be under the law of sin and death - or the curse of the law - or anything that comes by walking in the flesh which is the epitome of lawlessness

Finally we agree on something -- or close to it. If you walk by the Spirit you will live God's laws by the Spirit and not be under the law of sin and death - or the curse of the law - or anything that comes by walking in the flesh. Since you can't be under the OT law and under grace, we live and are guided by the Spirit. Christians are free from the OT law.

 

[Truthfrees]

Finally we agree on something -- or close to it. If you walk by the Spirit you will live God's laws by the Spirit and not be under the law of sin and death - or the curse of the law - or anything that comes by walking in the flesh. Since you can't be under the OT law and under grace, we live and are guided by the Spirit. Christians are free from the OT law.

i think we may have been agreeing all along - there is probably a misunderstanding of what is being said because there are people who think you can only be saved by keeping God's laws - and there are people who think you can break all God's laws anytime you want - the two extremes i suppose

and we may have been talking around each other because we were thinking of the extremist view

i believe in salvation by faith and grace alone - the power of God from start to finish

i also believe in living my daily life by every word from God's mouth by the power of the Spirit - which some are saying we do because of the Spirit - which i agree - the Spirit of God from start to finish on everything

 

[for_his_glory]

Paul wrote..."For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death." (Rom 7:5)
Paul is referencing his pre-conversion past.

So which controls you?
Your mind or your skin and bones?

A "law" he writes he is free of in Rom 8:2..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Already answered in Rom 6:6...Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."

Thanks be to God that he already wrote "when we were in the flesh", (Ro 7:5), making it clear he isn't in the flesh anymore.
That way nobody can confuse him or his writings as being about his post-conversion walk.

The vessel fades and turns to dust...it is not immortal.
The vessel is not "ME".
It is simply my means of locomotion.
It can't cause me to commit sin.

Like I said, we have been through this soooooooooo many times in the past that I no longer care to discuss this any longer with you as we can not agree on the things of the flesh that we still struggle with at times.

 

[Hopeful]

Cited previously, that evil thoughts defile us. Thoughts are obviously internal

I guess that depends on who the "us" is.
As a member of the body of Christ, my lusts have been crucified. (Rom 6:3-7, Ga 5:24)
So they play no part in my life.
Without lusts, no sin can be committed. (James 1:14-15)

Sin is a progression from thought to word to deed. Sin nevertheless every step of the way

Temptation can lead to sin, without a divine nature.
But with a divine nature they are simply resisted. (James 4:7)

We are not exempt from temptations of the tempter transpiring in mind. We do have an adversary, and we wrestle that battle internally.

Ans we can win every battle.

You are welcome to claim you are exempt. I don't see it that way.

Only exempt from capitulating to temptation.
Those reborn of God's seed cannot commit sin. (1 John 3:9)

Paul tells us exactly how internal defilement works in Romans 7:7-13. Internally, in thoughts

Yes, he does...but he is calling to mind his life in the flesh, before the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus freed him from the law of sin and death. (Rom 8:2)

So does Jesus in:
Matthew 15:19-20,
Mark 7:21-23
Matthew 5:28
The only exemption was Jesus. That's why we listen to Him.

Jesus was tempted like as we are. (Heb 4:15)
He resisted, and so can we.
And we will be successful every time if our repentance from sin is real.

The law still causes thoughts against the law to transpire internally, just like clockwork

Thank God we are dead to the Law.

The evil present in no man is obedient to the law, and never will be, in the truest sense. Internally. It is not even remotely possible.
The evil conscience is a hard line human fact and condition
It's also why we should trust no man, not even ourselves

Sounds like you want to become a Christian.
One who has been reborn of God's seed after putting the old man to death. (Rom 6:6)

 

[Hopeful]

correct - so then you too should be able to say with confidence like paul - do we void the law no we establish it - Romans 3:31 - and you too should be able to say with confidence that God is right when He said he who keeps God's laws and teaches them is great in the kingdom - Matthew 5:19 - because man lives by Every word that comes from God's mouth - Matthew 4:4

We "establish the Law" by staying true to our new divine nature, not by abstaining from pork or keeping one day a week holy.
The Law was made for those who walked in the flesh, and not for those who walk in the Spirit.
We don't need a Law to show us how wicked-sinful we were because we are no longer wicked or sinful.
It is written..."Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;" (1 Tim 1:9-10)

re: sacrifices - there have been no animal sacrifices since after the crucifixion - the romans forbade them at first and 100 years later the temple was destroyed so they can never again be made - talk about divine timing? - and all in accordance with God's laws regarding sacrifices

Why would the Romans or the temples destruction matter after Jesus' final sacrifice?
No other sacrifice...for sin...will ever be necessary or functional.
We don't need a temple to sacrifice via fasting, charitable work, or praising God.
We don't need a Sabbath because every day is the Lord's day.
If one wants to live under the Law in the NT, let them...but it will not make them any more holy than they were the instant they were reborn of God's seed.

 

[Hopeful]

i would word it differently - i agree with summed up - 100% with you on that

if you want to know the details look up each law to see what God has to say - because nothing God said was ever superfluous - He is the most succinct communicator ever

He said we are dead to the Law in Rom 7:4..."Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
He also said..."For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God." (Gal 2:18-19)
He also said..."In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." (Heb 8:13)

 

[Hopeful]

every word that came from the mouth of God - Matthew 4:4 - all holy and pure - Psalm 19:7 - Romans 7:12

not traditions or man-made laws - or even strange interpretation by man of God's holy laws

Including circumcision?