Is the Law of God dead? And if yes, how?

[Hopeful]

Like I said, we have been through this soooooooooo many times in the past that I no longer care to discuss this any longer with you as we can not agree on the things of the flesh that we still struggle with at times.

Do we agree that Christians are in the Spirit and not in the flesh? (Rom 8:1, 4, 9)

 

[smaller]

You believe in what you want and I the same as we will never see eye to eye on this subject of the law so for now I will graciously leave our conversation for now.

God bless you and yours.

Yes, I think we've run this course sufficiently

To you and yours as well

 

[smaller]

Only exempt from capitulating to temptation

Well, at least it seems that you may have conceeded to the fact of having internal temptations regardless of how you might dismiss such.

Jesus didn't provide anyone an option to not having evil thoughts that defile us or say only some folks have such in
Matt. 15:19-20,
Mark 7:21-23
and Matt. 5:28

Paul described these evil thoughts as the workings of sin, "no longer I" specifically in Romans chapter 7. He did not exempt himself whatsoever. In fact we can even read where Paul had temptation in his own flesh in Galatians and even a "messenger of Satan" in his flesh in 2 Cor 12:7, which many a believer will deny, that a messenger of Satan is in fact, a devil

And this does happen, because of the continuing reality of Mark 4:15, also not optional

We will have internal temptations

We will have evil thoughts inserted into our minds, by our adversary

We are supposed to learn to recognize these as demonic, and RESIST them

There are many however that don't know the difference between their own thoughts, and the thoughts of our adversary

 

[Truthfrees]

Including circumcision?

circumcision was commanded to abraham and all is descendants as a sign of the covenant before the law and again at the law - God spoke it not man - again if you don't see the medical benefits of circumcision or eating good food then do what seems right to you - people raised with all of this don't have any desire to abandon it - it's simple - easy - wise

if you are going to refer to paul you will have to remember:
1. he and he alone circumcised timothy - so why would he break his own rules as you understand them?
2. again paul was several times racing to make it to jerusalem for some feast? - so is he a hypocrite or are you misunderstanding him?
3. paul talked against circumcision as a requirement for salvation as per Acts 21 where some people misunderstood God's commands and were insisting God couldn't save gentiles unless they were circumcised

 

[Truthfrees]

He said we are dead to the Law in Rom 7:4..."Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
He also said..."For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God." (Gal 2:18-19)
He also said..."In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." (Heb 8:13)

that was paul and you are missing his point of faith grace Spirit walk God's words rather than flesh works lust law of sin and death God's words

the weakness was always the flesh - the strength has always been God's Spirit

until you see that distinction you will continue to misunderstand what paul says

Matthew 4:4 - Matthew 5:19 - Romans 3:31 trumps all your misunderstood verses - use these 3 verses to understand your many verses

 

[Truthfrees]

We "establish the Law" by staying true to our new divine nature, not by abstaining from pork or keeping one day a week holy.
The Law was made for those who walked in the flesh, and not for those who walk in the Spirit.
We don't need a Law to show us how wicked-sinful we were because we are no longer wicked or sinful.
It is written..."Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;" (1 Tim 1:9-10)

Why would the Romans or the temples destruction matter after Jesus' final sacrifice?
No other sacrifice...for sin...will ever be necessary or functional.
We don't need a temple to sacrifice via fasting, charitable work, or praising God.
We don't need a Sabbath because every day is the Lord's day.
If one wants to live under the Law in the NT, let them...but it will not make them any more holy than they were the instant they were reborn of God's seed.

get the message of Matthew 4:4 - Matthew 5:19 - Romans 3:31 and you will know

read the laws about temple sacrifice and see how 4 elements had to be present to make a sacrifice - if any ONE of them were missing the sacrifice can't be made - approximate obedience is not God's desire - do it exactly as said or not at all

 

[Truthfrees]

Hopeful if you are really set on throwing out God's laws Matthew 5:19 allows you to do that - i love everything God said because it is all a blessing so i will continue to follow Matthew 4:4 and Romans 3:31 and Matthew 5:19

i will continue to understand paul's message to do God's laws by His Spirit and not by your flesh - Galatians 5:16 - because salvation is by faith and grace of God - Romans 3:21

the difference between you and i is i don't have to throw out any of God's words - i can walk in the Spirit in everything - you have to throw out over 4/5 of the bible because you call it ot - according to you the nt starts at Acts because the person you claim to follow was ot and only paul was nt - are you sure you are not a paulian? - how can you throw out Jesus' words as ot?

Matthew 4:4 - Matthew 5:19 - Romans 3:31

 

[jaybo]

Hopeful if you are really set on throwing out God's laws Matthew 5:19 allows you to do that - i love everything God said because it is all a blessing so i will continue to follow Matthew 4:4 and Romans 3:31 and Matthew 5:19

i will continue to understand paul's message to do God's laws by His Spirit and not by your flesh - Galatians 5:16 - because salvation is by faith and grace of God - Romans 3:21

the difference between you and i is i don't have to throw out any of God's words - i can walk in the Spirit in everything - you have to throw out over 4/5 of the bible because you call it ot - according to you the nt starts at Acts because the person you claim to follow was ot and only paul was nt - are you sure you are not a paulian? - how can you throw out Jesus' words as ot?

Matthew 4:4 - Matthew 5:19 - Romans 3:31

I live in the US, so I am not obligated to obey another country's law. I am not a citizen of France, for example, so I don't pay attention to their laws.

Likewise, I am a Christian, so I am not obligated to obey the Old Covenant laws. They apply to those who have not been reborn as citizens of heaven -- the body of Christ. No words have been "thrown out". You need to understand that Christians are under grace, not under law. That is what the Bible says.

 

[Truthfrees]

I live in the US, so I am not obligated to obey another country's law. I am not a citizen of France, for example, so I don't pay attention to their laws.

Likewise, I am a Christian, so I am not obligated to obey the Old Covenant laws. They apply to those who have not been reborn as citizens of heaven -- the body of Christ. No words have been "thrown out". You need to understand that Christians are under grace, not under law. That is what the Bible says.

Jesus says otherwise - Matthew 4:4 - Matthew 5:19 - Romans 3:31

even paul says you joined the "other" country you are talking about - Ephesians 2:12 - Romans 11:17 - Romans 11:19 - Romans 11:24

but even though you are now a part of this "other" country you don't have to keep the laws if you don't want to - Matthew 5:19 - you have choices - whatever you do do it to God's glory without judging those who do things you don't want to do - Romans 14

 

[jaybo]

Jesus says otherwise - Matthew 4:4 - Matthew 5:19 - Romans 3:31

even paul says you joined the "other" country you are talking about - Ephesians 2:12 - Romans 11:17 - Romans 11:19 - Romans 11:24

but even though you are now a part of this "other" country you don't have to keep the laws if you don't want to - Matthew 5:19 - you have choices

The whole basis of the New Covenant is that Christians are under grace, not under law. That's what the Bible clearly says, and that's what I believe.

You can't mix-and-match law and grace. If someone goes back to the law after receiving the Holy Spirit then there is no further hope for them.

"Before this faith came we were confined under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith was revealed." Galatians 3:23

"But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law." Galatians 5:18

There is nothing clearer than that!

 

[Hopeful]

Well, at least it seems that you may have conceeded to the fact of having internal temptations regardless of how you might dismiss such.

I, like Jesus, am tempted.
We can all 'dismiss them'.
By the grace of God and the Spirit in the reborn we have the power to make the tempter flee.

Jesus didn't provide anyone an option to not having evil thoughts that defile us or say only some folks have such in
Matt. 15:19-20,
Mark 7:21-23
and Matt. 5:28

The option God provides when having evil thoughts is to reject them.
Don't you ever reject them?

Paul described these evil thoughts as the workings of sin, "no longer I" specifically in Romans chapter 7.

Evil thoughts and sin are two very different topics.
Both can be rejected though.

He did not exempt himself whatsoever. In fact we can even read where Paul had temptation in his own flesh in Galatians and even a "messenger of Satan" in his flesh in 2 Cor 12:7, which many a believer will deny, that a messenger of Satan is in fact, a devil

Your take is different than mine regarding the messenger.

And this does happen, because of the continuing reality of Mark 4:15, also not optional
We will have internal temptations

Yep, and thank God we can reject them !

We will have evil thoughts inserted into our minds, by our adversary
We are supposed to learn to recognize these as demonic, and RESIST them

Yep, and God provides the means of doing so.
Thanks be to God !!

There are many however that don't know the difference between their own thoughts, and the thoughts of our adversary.

If the thoughts are evil, they are from the devil.
The only times that may not be true is in the unconverted.

 

[Hopeful]

circumcision was commanded to abraham and all is descendants as a sign of the covenant before the law and again at the law - God spoke it not man - again if you don't see the medical benefits of circumcision or eating good food then do what seems right to you - people raised with all of this don't have any desire to abandon it - it's simple - easy - wise

And unnecessary for salvation in the NT.

if you are going to refer to paul you will have to remember:
1. he and he alone circumcised timothy - so why would he break his own rules as you understand them?

So he could take him into Jewish synagogues to preach.

2. again paul was several times racing to make it to jerusalem for some feast? - so is he a hypocrite or are you misunderstanding him?

He was a Jew, but didn't celebrate feasts for salvation.

3. paul talked against circumcision as a requirement for salvation as per Acts 21 where some people misunderstood God's commands and were insisting God couldn't save gentiles unless they were circumcised

The same argument works for dietary restrictions, as well as Sabbath days, tithing, wearing certain clothes, and feast keeping, etc.

 

[Hopeful]

that was paul

Paul the apostle of the Lord Jesus, filled with the Spirit of God.
I cannot reject his words to believers.

and you are missing his point of faith grace Spirit walk God's words rather than flesh works lust law of sin and death God's words

the weakness was always the flesh - the strength has always been God's Spirit

until you see that distinction you will continue to misunderstand what paul says

I don't misunderstand what Paul wrote.

Matthew 4:4 -

So circumcision is still in effect and necessary for salvation...not.

Matthew 5:19 -

I won't live under a covenant that can't make a man perfect.

Romans 3:31 trumps all your misunderstood verses - use these 3 verses to understand your many verses

Rom 3:27-28..."Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."
You are putting your stock in the wrong Law.

 

[Hopeful]

Hopeful if you are really set on throwing out God's laws Matthew 5:19 allows you to do that - i love everything God said because it is all a blessing so i will continue to follow Matthew 4:4 and Romans 3:31 and Matthew 5:19

i will continue to understand paul's message to do God's laws by His Spirit and not by your flesh - Galatians 5:16 - because salvation is by faith and grace of God - Romans 3:21

the difference between you and i is i don't have to throw out any of God's words - i can walk in the Spirit in everything - you have to throw out over 4/5 of the bible because you call it ot - according to you the nt starts at Acts because the person you claim to follow was ot and only paul was nt - are you sure you are not a paulian? - how can you throw out Jesus' words as ot?

Matthew 4:4 - Matthew 5:19 - Romans 3:31

They didn't work in the OT and they won't work in the NT.
Thankfully, you have already said you don't do it "to be saved".
I don't have to throw anything away, because they were nailed to the cross. (Col 2:14)

 

[Truthfrees]

They didn't work in the OT and they won't work in the NT.
Thankfully, you have already said you don't do it "to be saved".
I don't have to throw anything away, because they were nailed to the cross. (Col 2:14)

i would word it differently - the flesh didn't work in either era - the Spirit works in both - faith and grace was just as much a part of both eras - even paul said it worked for him his whole life - Philippians 3:6

so that is what i am saying - in one place paul says one thing and in another he seems to contradict either himself or God - God would not have allowed paul to contradict Him so it must be that paul is talking about something other than what it sounds - imo his entire message is saved by grace/faith - wisely live God's words by the Spirit because the flesh can't ever succeed - never did - never will

 

[Truthfrees]

Paul the apostle of the Lord Jesus, filled with the Spirit of God.
I cannot reject his words to believers.

I don't misunderstand what Paul wrote.

So circumcision is still in effect and necessary for salvation...not.

I won't live under a covenant that can't make a man perfect.

Rom 3:27-28..."Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."
You are putting your stock in the wrong Law.

keeping the law was never required for salvation - no scripture anywhere says that - that is a misunderstanding - and since you only trust paul even over God then i would have to say it is a misunderstanding of paul - you are the one that said Jesus is ot and so paul's words trump Jesus' words

the new covenant happens to include all God's laws - the difference now is God indwells so keeping the law is easy by God's power - check out the wording of the new covenant - see who the covenant was made with and what it entailed - see how it ADDED something awesome and did not take away anything

 

[Truthfrees]

And unnecessary for salvation in the NT.

So he could take him into Jewish synagogues to preach.

He was a Jew, but didn't celebrate feasts for salvation.

The same argument works for dietary restrictions, as well as Sabbath days, tithing, wearing certain clothes, and feast keeping, etc.

show me where God said keep this law to be saved? - you won't find it - God didn't say it -

as far as circumcision then there are times it is ok to do it to an uncircumsized person? - show me where paul taught it was ok? - see what i'm saying - what is said and what is done are 2 different things - meaning either paul is a hypocrite or what people think he is saying is not what he is really saying

uncircumsized men and greeks and women could enter a synagogue - they could not enter the temple - they had to stay in the outer court

 

[Truthfrees]

The whole basis of the New Covenant is that Christians are under grace, not under law. That's what the Bible clearly says, and that's what I believe.

You can't mix-and-match law and grace. If someone goes back to the law after receiving the Holy Spirit then there is no further hope for them.

"Before this faith came we were confined under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith was revealed." Galatians 3:23

"But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law." Galatians 5:18

There is nothing clearer than that!

you can live all God's laws by grace - you can obey everything God tells you by grace - grace vs law is a misunderstanding - paul was really talking about flesh/law of sin and death vs Spirit /law of life/holy laws/grace/faith

check out what God said about the new covenant - read each word - you will be surprised who it was really made with and what it entailed - so how do you join the people the new covenant was made with?

 

[jaybo]

you can live all God's laws by grace - you can obey everything God tells you by grace - grace vs law is a misunderstanding - paul was really talking about flesh/law of sin and death vs Spirit /law of life/holy laws/grace/faith

check out what God said about the new covenant - read each word - you will be surprised who it was really made with and what it entailed - so how do you join the people the new covenant was made with?

I don't understand what you're talking about.

"check out what God said about the new covenant - read each word" Do you really think I haven't done that? I have read the Bible, especially the New Testament, every day for more than 40 years" So I am not "surprised who it was really made with and what it entailed".

Since I have joined the people the New Covenant was made with many years ago -- although it's more accurate to say that God chose me and grafted me in -- I don't understand your "invitation". Are you implying that I'm not a Christian?

 

[Truthfrees]

I don't understand what you're talking about.

"check out what God said about the new covenant - read each word" Do you really think I haven't done that? I have read the Bible, especially the New Testament, every day for more than 40 years" So I am not "surprised who it was really made with and what it entailed".

Since I have joined the people the New Covenant was made with many years ago -- although it's more accurate to say that God chose me and grafted me in -- I don't understand your "invitation". Are you implying that I'm not a Christian?

i never imply anything - if you read who the new covenant was made with and know you are grafted in then that is wonderful

it was a clear word from God about the new covenant - do you also see that He never said He was replacing His Holy Laws with grace? - He said that His Holy Laws would continue and everyone would have a new ability? - do you see what that is?