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Is the Law of God dead? And if yes, how?

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JLB

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Let.us. have.a.debate. with .a.nrutral .jury. yes or no?

Do you have scripture that indicates Paul was a false teacher,
yes or no.

I don’t care about some “jury” that may or may not be Christian.

I certainly don’t know any Christian that will be “neutral“.


Please provide scripture, from any apostle that teaches us to regard the apostle Paul as a false teacher.


If you can not, then please repent for spreading a false slanderous report against an apostle of Christ.


As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, “Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” Then, having fasted and prayed, and laid hands on them, they sent them away. Acts 13:2-3



Do you believe Luke was a false teacher also?






JLB
 

rhomphaeam

 
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Paul's own confession in 2 Corinthians 12:16 : CRAFTY fellow that I am , I took you in by DECEIT
Now can we have a live debate with a neutral jury ?

Was this:

Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me—to keep me from exalting myself! Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me. And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me. Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ’s sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong. I have become foolish; you yourselves compelled me. Actually I should have been commended by you, for in no respect was I inferior to the most eminent apostles, even though I am a nobody. The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles. For in what respect were you treated as inferior to the rest of the churches, except that I myself did not become a burden to you? Forgive me this wrong! Here for this third time I am ready to come to you, and I will not be a burden to you; for I do not seek what is yours, but you; for children are not responsible to save up for their parents, but parents for their children. I will most gladly spend and be expended for your souls. If I love you more, am I to be loved less? But be that as it may, I did not burden you myself; nevertheless, crafty fellow that I am, I took you in by deceit. Certainly I have not taken advantage of you through any of those whom I have sent to you, have I? I urged Titus to go, and I sent the brother with him. Titus did not take any advantage of you, did he? Did we not conduct ourselves in the same spirit and walk in the same steps? All this time you have been thinking that we are defending ourselves to you. Actually, it is in the sight of God that we have been speaking in Christ; and all for your upbuilding, beloved. For I am afraid that perhaps when I come I may find you to be not what I wish and may be found by you to be not what you wish; that perhaps there will be strife, jealousy, angry tempers, disputes, slanders, gossip, arrogance, disturbances; I am afraid that when I come again my God may humiliate me before you, and I may mourn over many of those who have sinned in the past and not repented of the impurity, immorality and sensuality which they have practiced.

So what then is this deceit. It was the Corinthians believing that Paul was weak when in truth he is speaking about being weak in their eyes. So Paul goes on to say:

This is the third time I am coming to you. Every fact is to be confirmed by the testimony of two or three witnesses. I have previously said when present the second time, and though now absent I say in advance to those who have sinned in the past and to all the rest as well, that if I come again I will not spare anyone, since you are seeking for proof of the Christ who speaks in me, and who is not weak toward you, but mighty in you. For indeed He was crucified because of weakness, yet He lives because of the power of God. For we also are weak in Him, yet we will live with Him because of the power of God directed toward you. Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test? But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test. Now we pray to God that you do no wrong; not that we ourselves may appear approved, but that you may do what is right, even though we may appear unapproved. For we can do nothing against the truth, but only for the truth. For we rejoice when we ourselves are weak but you are strong; this we also pray for, that you be made complete. For this reason I am writing these things while absent, so that when present I need not use severity, in accordance with the authority which the Lord gave me for building up and not for tearing down. Finally, brethren, rejoice, be made complete, be comforted, be like-minded, live in peace; and the God of love and peace will be with you. Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the saints greet you. The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.

I guess that's what is called the grace of God. Weak by the requirement of Christ and yet in spirit capable of handing a man unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh in the same church.
 

JLB

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Paul's own confession in 2 Corinthians 12:16 : CRAFTY fellow that I am , I took you in by DECEIT
Now can we have a live debate with a neutral jury ?


Amen, thank God Paul was crafty.



I have addressed this scripture before, only to have you ignore the question and the meaning of the word crafty.


Are you ready to answer, now?



JLB
 

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[ACMP=reminder]
This is on page 40 and it would do everyone good to go back and read the OP as this is not a thread about Paul contradicting Jesus. Please respect the ToS 1.1 and 1.3 within discussing this thread, Thank you.
[/ACMP]
just in case this admin reminder got missed
 

rhomphaeam

 
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just in case this admin reminder got missed

Well I didn't miss it - so feel free to ban me any time you feel ready. But if you are truthfully upholding your claim to be serving God with honesty and yet you feel a need to remind two posters that this thread is not about the apostle Paul when the video and the very words of the author demonstrate just how false that is - I would rather be banned than remain.
 
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JLB

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yes - can you quote me those scriptures you believe disprove what i said

Yes.


Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.” Acts 15:6-11





JLB
 

Rajesh Sahu

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Paul taught the law of Christ.


The law of Moses has been abolished.
I will end this argument with a very gentle and final question. You are hiding from it. Why JLB? Why don't we debate in front of a neutral jury. I have a whole host of charges and evidences against Paul as you have in his defence . If you do not have the courage and gumption and conviction to face a neutral jury and a televised debate, I will not ask anymore . Just say so please. I'm absolutely ready for such a badly needed debate
Summarizing my question and asking one LAST TIME: Sir are you willing to debate with me with a live audience and neutral jury

YES OR NO? please let me know .
If it's a NO, I'll never ask you again. And if it's a YES I'll admire you immensely:) And look forward to seeing you there ✝️ You choose the venue . I'll come there
But neutrality of jury I shall scrutinize.

Think about my debate request calmly. I'm off to bed ...finally at 6:09 am ! Need some rest!!!!😃
That was a torrid back n forth! Anyway the subject is worthy of sleepless nights. We both feel we are contending for the Lord. Good night/ day everyone. May the Lord be the witness between us .
I will always contend for the Lord ...until I breathe my last.
Look forward to a simple YES or NO.
many thanks in advance 🙏
 
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JLB

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I will end this argument with a very gentle and final question. You are hiding from it. Why JLB?


The fair and truthful witnesses are the Father, the Son and the Spirit who have inspired the scriptures.


Please provide the scripture from the Apostles who said Paul is a false teacher. The scriptures are the truth and the only witness any true man or woman of God needs.


We don’t rely on man or man’s testimony, or witness.

But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ “Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:16-20



As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, “Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” Then, having fasted and prayed, and laid hands on them, they sent them away. Acts 13:2-3
and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. 2 Peter 3:15-16


No debate to it.


Just the truth of the scripture that you either believe or don’t.








JLB
 

JLB

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Can we have a debate with a neutral jury if you're so confident about your position ?

Please bring on your neutral jury and have them examine what I wrote, and have them provide chapter and verse where Jesus or any apostles regarded Paul as a false teacher.


I will be waiting.




JLB
 

Truthfrees

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I will end this argument with a very gentle and final question. You are hiding from it. Why JLB? Why don't we debate in front of a neutral jury. I have a whole host of charges and evidences against Paul as you have in his defence . If you do not have the courage and gumption and conviction to face a neutral jury and a televised debate, I will not ask anymore . Just say so please. I'm absolutely ready for such a badly needed debate
Summarizing my question and asking one LAST TIME: Sir are you willing to debate with me with a live audience and neutral jury

YES OR NO? please let me know .
If it's a NO, I'll never ask you again. And if it's a YES I'll admire you immensely:) And look forward to seeing you there ✝️ You choose the venue . I'll come there
But neutrality of jury I shall scrutinize.

Think about my debate request calmly. I'm off to bed ...finally at 6:09 am ! Need some rest!!!!😃
That was a torrid back n forth! Anyway the subject is worthy of sleepless nights. We both feel we are contending for the Lord. Good night/ day everyone. May the Lord be the witness between us .
I will always contend for the Lord ...until I breathe my last.
Look forward to a simple YES or NO.
many thanks in advance 🙏
it sounds like a reasonable request but i don't believe it will be allowed here as per the tos

will leave it to for_his_glory to make that decision
 

rogerg

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I will end this argument with a very gentle and final question. You are hiding from it. Why JLB? Why don't we debate in front of a neutral jury. I have a whole host of charges and evidences against Paul as you have in his defence . If you do not have the courage and gumption and conviction to face a neutral jury and a televised debate,
There could be no such a thing as a "neutral jury", so fair and impartial debate would be possible. In order to have a fair debate, the very thing you would be debating would itself be necessary for the one side to use as evidence to support Paul's ministry. Using such a method of judging Paul, would mean that those who would be inclined to the "not" side, could not be neutral - the supposed neutrality of the "jury" would divide down two lines: those for Paul (those who understand his writings), and those against him (those who do not), so there would be no middle ground because they would have no grasp of Paul's doctrine- this is true not just for Paul but for the Bible as a whole: it cannot be perceived through/by human intellect. The best and only evidence to be found and be needed, is in the reading and understanding of it: the mercy, grace and judgment of God espoused within it - they, standing of themselves. Yet, by human intellect will no spiritual wisdom ever be gained:

[1Co 2:14 KJV]
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

A true minister of Christ is, as a true minister of Christ does:

[2Co 11:23-28, 31-33 KJV]
23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I [am] more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
24 Of the Jews five times received I forty [stripes] save one.
25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
26 [In] journeyings often, [in] perils of waters, [in] perils of robbers, [in] perils by [mine own] countrymen, [in] perils by the heathen, [in] perils in the city, [in] perils in the wilderness, [in] perils in the sea, [in] perils among false brethren;
27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches. ...
31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.
32 In Damascus the governor under Aretas the king kept the city of the Damascenes with a garrison, desirous to apprehend me:
33 And through a window in a basket was I let down by the wall, and escaped his hands.

And yet, even after having endured the above, what actually demonstrated who Paul was and showed him used by God, were his words.
 
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rogerg

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Divisive effects (produces) all predications out of the flesh and so when we speak of the law of sin and death you must understand that this law was not authored by God in a deterministic sense but the command to obey is the law of God to Adam, as simple a matter as it was.

I think God's commandment to Adam and Eve not to eat of the fruit of the tree was intended by Him to protect them
(and us) from being placed under law from/by which can death be levied. Unfortunately, Adam and Eve chose to ignore that warning, hence, law and death.

I believe this may be seen in:
[Rom 7:10 KJV] 10 And the commandment, which [was ordained] to life, I found [to be] unto death.
As believers we tend to being divisive because we sense the contradiction in many things in ourselves and in others. What I received when I first was saved in solitary confinement in 1984 was how to draw the threads of understanding but to resist weaving the garment. And if we want to gain a sense of that which in simplicity many assert is a better portion - is to state the startlingly obvious fact - Christ is our garment - not our cogent minds full of knowledge. That is why I said in an earlier post that we should focus on what salvation means chiefly to avoid becoming divisive. Christ is salvation not many things.

If I understand correctly, I would respectfully submit that because of the nature of God's true gospel, that divisiveness and persecution cannot be avoided because it pits the essence of natural man (which is of works for salvation,) against the essence of saved man-- salvation which is through Christ (salvation by grace). Of course, natural man doesn't see this and believes that through their works they follow God's gospel, but in reality, are following Satan's, so they choose to fight for their gospel as should we fight for ours which must bring conflict between us. They, by nature, see the actions of those truly saved as being wrong and as a violation of the law of their god.
I know you already know this but thought I'd mention it anyway for clarity

[Gal 4:28-29 KJV]
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [it is] now.
So by all means we can discuss this issue that is raised here as to what law is at work and when and how sin is reckoned or how the entirety of humanity were downed in the flood in the day of Noah save for eight souls - but if we weave a garment from the clear threads of Scripture then we have clothed ourselves in our own understanding if we put on that garment and call ourselves after any other man - be that Calvin or Paul or any other - save for Christ. Well that's my morning rant out of the way.

I agree. Although it might seem otherwise, I have never ever read anything written by Calvin, nor do I follow him. From the little I've heard about him I think what he espouses may be the same doctrines any that saved person would espouse. Spiritual wisdom and faith are gifts solely through the Holy Spirit not from Calvin.

[Gal 5:22 KJV]
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[
Tit 3:5 KJV]
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
 

WIP

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Thank you for sharing that 🙏 . Yes Godly knowledge is priceless . Like I said I'm extremely partial to Christ's words. In fact it's an irony that Christ's words in many of the Churches in my city and close by have almost disappeared . Mostly Paul is taught . I'm watching nine or ten churches' Sunday services online. I'm not seeing Christ's words being taught at all. It's not ok to throw the master's words in the background. I'm requesting many Churchgoers can we dedicate one year, 2022, exclusively to Christ? Study the four gospels minutely in the year so we may all learn straight from the Savior. I find it a bit sinister what is happening. A bizarre irony is building up. Christ is not being taught adequately ( if at all) in many Christian Churches! I believe we owe Him at least this much that we respectfully request our teachers at Churches to dedicate at least one year to our Lord....Sorry I digressed a bit from the thread topic. But it's yet connected. There is nothing without Christ in the Word ( at least for me). For he IS the Word! It just hurts me deeply
Les Feldick visited our church a few years ago and one of the things he seemed to stress was how we, not being of Jewish descent, should only be looking at Paul's gospel. And yes, he did in fact distinguish a difference between the gospel of Jesus and the gospel of Paul. This among other things gave me a very negative taste in my mouth for his theology.
 
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Truthfrees

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Thank you for sharing that 🙏 . Yes Godly knowledge is priceless . Like I said I'm extremely partial to Christ's words. In fact it's an irony that Christ's words in many of the Churches in my city and close by have almost disappeared . Mostly Paul is taught . I'm watching nine or ten churches' Sunday services online. I'm not seeing Christ's words being taught at all. It's not ok to throw the master's words in the background. I'm requesting many Churchgoers can we dedicate one year, 2022, exclusively to Christ? Study the four gospels minutely in the year so we may all learn straight from the Savior. I find it a bit sinister what is happening. A bizarre irony is building up. Christ is not being taught adequately ( if at all) in many Christian Churches! I believe we owe Him at least this much that we respectfully request our teachers at Churches to dedicate at least one year to our Lord....Sorry I digressed a bit from the thread topic. But it's yet connected. There is nothing without Christ in the Word ( at least for me). For he IS the Word! It just hurts me deeply
imo prayer is the answer - praying for people to see and know the truth seems to work much better than talking - most jews and muslims accept Messiah when they meet God in person - everyone needs to meet and walk with God for themselves - praying for this works well - this is the best way for people to learn truth

what seems alarming to us is an easy fix for God when we pray
 

for_his_glory

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Rajesh Sahu I need to ask you a question so I can be clear on what the problem is about Paul.

Do you believe Paul contradicted the teachings of Christ? Please only answer yes or no as I need no further explanation at this time. If you would rather answer in a private PM with me that would also be alright. Just want to get to the bottom of all this arguing.
 

Rajesh Sahu

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Rajesh Sahu I need to ask you a question so I can be clear on what the problem is about Paul.

Do you believe Paul contradicted the teachings of Christ? Please only answer yes or no as I need no further explanation at this time. If you would rather answer in a private PM with me that would also be alright. Just want to get to the bottom of all this arguing.
YES absolutely. paul came with the express purpose to destroy Christ's doctrine of loving compassion. He succeeded as well. He was the man predicted repeatedly by the Lord in the following verses( and many other times:


Matthew 7: 15
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Matthew 16:6
“Be careful,” Jesus said to them. “Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”

He was repeatedly pointing at Saul the brutal murderous blaspheming Pharisee's coming deception. He did infiltarte the Church ytjrough a "vision" and took over the Church of Christ.
Im a very tiny human being Glory. I fought and fought for the Lord, but finally was defeated last night / early morning. I concede to everyone who believes in this man being an apostle. The Lord asked me to concede and back off. So I do/ did. He put my mind at ease after I has spewed all my venom out against this ravenous wolf, Saul the Pharisee. Totally juiced out :) Plus I lost as well. Too many against one man. TRUTHFREES gave me a piece of prudent advice and that TRUTH FREED me :)
I'll be spending more time with brothers and sisters who do believe this man was a false apostle. These ugly and heated arguments will not happen. It's not fair to 99% here who accept Saul as apostle while I completely reject him as one. So this time I made up my mind, as exhorted by the Lord that I will not argue my case, no matter how passionately I feel about this issue. the Lord says we have to leave the verdict about this debate to Him, for He is our judge.
If I'm blundering, may I be judged and punished by the Lord. that being said, I leave all in love and good wishes. All that juice /the acid of pure unadulterated hatred for paul, I shall not cast on anyone again. For all here love Jesus, and that's enough for me. God bless you all. I'm very very sorry if I hurt your feelings guys, JLB in particular, and everyone else 🙏🙏🙏
 
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