Is the Law of God dead? And if yes, how?

[jaybo]

I'm done discussing this with you. Have a great evening.

Bye!!

 

[Hidden In Him]

no - not at all - the only reason i talk to you is because you aren't stupid - apologies if i worded things in an offensive way -

Truthfrees, it appears I'm not going to be getting any answers for my posts, and it's no fun taking the trouble to get involved in discussions and be met with silence. I'd like to discuss it more, so tell me what you think of my arguments in Posts #577 and #580. I'll repost them here so you don't have to go back and look for them.

God bless.

Post #577:
You always have to interpret verses in light of the context in which they are found. That is what is so complicated when discussing what parts of "the law" are being discussed. But Paul points out clearly what parts of it he is discussing in Galatians:

2 Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me. 2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain. 3 Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. (see also verses 6-10).

Then he speaks of the covenant they had through Abraham, which again came through circumcision.

15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. 16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise. (Galatians 3:15-18)

Then we have this in Chapter 4:

8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods. 9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly principles, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. (Galatians 4:8-10)

Now what days and months and seasons and years is he referring to here? They were Judaizing, and coming under the sway of false teachers saying they should keep the Jewish days and months and years, i.e. the Sabbaths, new moons, festivals, and years of Jubilee, not after a spiritual manner which would have been acceptable but after the strictness of the Jews, even though they were Gentiles. That they were Judaizing is obvious enough from 4:21, where he says, "Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?"

So the "works of the law" he was saying they would be under a curse from if they placed themselves in bondgage to them were the following:

1. Circumcision (Galatians 2:1-10, and see also Galatians 5:1-6 where he again repeats it even more strongly), and
2. Observing the Jewish Holy Days (Galatians 4:8-10).

Nowhere in this letter does Paul denounce or encourage them to renounce the greatest two commandments of the Old Testament upon which the law and the prophets were based: To love the Lord their God with their whole heart, mind, soul and strength, and to love their neighbors as themselves. In fact, he specifically sanctions the continued keeping of the latter in Galatians 5:14:

11 Brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased. 12 I could wish that those who trouble you would even cut themselves off! 13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” (Galatians 5:11-14)

Be careful about quoting verses out of their context. He is not talking about Jewish law in its entirety there. He is talking about those parts of the law that were now rendered obsolete through the coming of Christ.
__________

Post #580:
[The interpretation that "fulfill" in Matthew 5:17-18 means the law has been done away with] is a contradiction of the internal context of the verse itself:

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

If it was "fulfilled" by Christ before heaven and earth passed away (and they have not yet), this would make Christ a liar, and we both know that cannot be the case. So it has to mean something different than that the law has been done away completely.

for_his_glory.

 

[Truthfrees]

Truthfrees, it appears I'm not going to be getting any answers for my posts, and it's no fun taking the trouble to get involved in discussions and be met with silence. I'd like to discuss it more, so tell me what you think of my arguments in Posts #577 and #580. I'll repost them here so you don't have to go back and look for them.

God bless.

Post #577:
You always have to interpret verses in light of the context in which they are found. That is what is so complicated when discussing what parts of "the law" are being discussed. But Paul points out clearly what parts of it he is discussing in Galatians:

2 Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me. 2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain. 3 Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. (see also verses 6-10).

Then he speaks of the covenant they had through Abraham, which again came through circumcision.

15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. 16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise. (Galatians 3:15-18)

Then we have this in Chapter 4:

8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods. 9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly principles, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. (Galatians 4:8-10)

Now what days and months and seasons and years is he referring to here? They were Judaizing, and coming under the sway of false teachers saying they should keep the Jewish days and months and years, i.e. the Sabbaths, new moons, festivals, and years of Jubilee, not after a spiritual manner which would have been acceptable but after the strictness of the Jews, even though they were Gentiles. That they were Judaizing is obvious enough from 4:21, where he says, "Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?"

So the "works of the law" he was saying they would be under a curse from if they placed themselves in bondgage to them were the following:

1. Circumcision (Galatians 2:1-10, and see also Galatians 5:1-6 where he again repeats it even more strongly), and
2. Observing the Jewish Holy Days (Galatians 4:8-10).

Nowhere in this letter does Paul denounce or encourage them to renounce the greatest two commandments of the Old Testament upon which the law and the prophets were based: To love the Lord their God with their whole heart, mind, soul and strength, and to love their neighbors as themselves. In fact, he specifically sanctions the continued keeping of the latter in Galatians 5:14:

11 Brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased. 12 I could wish that those who trouble you would even cut themselves off! 13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” (Galatians 5:11-14)

Be careful about quoting verses out of their context. He is not talking about Jewish law in its entirety there. He is talking about those parts of the law that were now rendered obsolete through the coming of Christ.
__________

Post #580:
[The interpretation that "fulfill" in Matthew 5:17-18 means the law has been done away with] is a contradiction of the internal context of the verse itself:

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

If it was "fulfilled" by Christ before heaven and earth passed away (and they have not yet), this would make Christ a liar, and we both know that cannot be the case. So it has to mean something different than that the law has been done away completely.

for_his_glory.

ok - long post - i read it so i will try to answer and if i miss anything just repeat those parts

1. pual wrote almost exclusively to gentiles and the other apostles almost exclusively ti jews - so galatians and corinthian feast days and new moons and and foods and rituals were not the torah ones - they were pagan ones - they were going back to their pagan ways
2. Jesus and all aposrles kept torah - as all jews were commanded to do until heaven and earth pass away
3. Messiah will come to fulfill the conquering Messiah prophecies - only the suffering Messiah prophecies have been fulfilled - at that time heaven and earth will pass away

 

[Truthfrees]

Truthfrees, it appears I'm not going to be getting any answers for my posts, and it's no fun taking the trouble to get involved in discussions and be met with silence. I'd like to discuss it more, so tell me what you think of my arguments in Posts #577 and #580. I'll repost them here so you don't have to go back and look for them.

God bless.

Post #577:
You always have to interpret verses in light of the context in which they are found. That is what is so complicated when discussing what parts of "the law" are being discussed. But Paul points out clearly what parts of it he is discussing in Galatians:

2 Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me. 2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain. 3 Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. (see also verses 6-10).

Then he speaks of the covenant they had through Abraham, which again came through circumcision.

15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. 16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise. (Galatians 3:15-18)

Then we have this in Chapter 4:

8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods. 9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly principles, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. (Galatians 4:8-10)

Now what days and months and seasons and years is he referring to here? They were Judaizing, and coming under the sway of false teachers saying they should keep the Jewish days and months and years, i.e. the Sabbaths, new moons, festivals, and years of Jubilee, not after a spiritual manner which would have been acceptable but after the strictness of the Jews, even though they were Gentiles. That they were Judaizing is obvious enough from 4:21, where he says, "Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?"

So the "works of the law" he was saying they would be under a curse from if they placed themselves in bondgage to them were the following:

1. Circumcision (Galatians 2:1-10, and see also Galatians 5:1-6 where he again repeats it even more strongly), and
2. Observing the Jewish Holy Days (Galatians 4:8-10).

Nowhere in this letter does Paul denounce or encourage them to renounce the greatest two commandments of the Old Testament upon which the law and the prophets were based: To love the Lord their God with their whole heart, mind, soul and strength, and to love their neighbors as themselves. In fact, he specifically sanctions the continued keeping of the latter in Galatians 5:14:

11 Brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased. 12 I could wish that those who trouble you would even cut themselves off! 13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” (Galatians 5:11-14)

Be careful about quoting verses out of their context. He is not talking about Jewish law in its entirety there. He is talking about those parts of the law that were now rendered obsolete through the coming of Christ.
__________

Post #580:
[The interpretation that "fulfill" in Matthew 5:17-18 means the law has been done away with] is a contradiction of the internal context of the verse itself:

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

If it was "fulfilled" by Christ before heaven and earth passed away (and they have not yet), this would make Christ a liar, and we both know that cannot be the case. So it has to mean something different than that the law has been done away completely.

for_his_glory.

4. circumcision for salvation is the issue the messianic jerusalem council addressed in Acts 21 - no where in torah did God say circumcision was for salvation - neither was torah keeping
5. judaizers is the name paul gave to those who insisted faith plus circumcision plus torah keeping = salvation -
6. for the first many years all messianics were jews or those who converted to judaism - they were the sect of judaism called the way which even paul was a member of - jews and converts would all have been circumcised and keeping torah including going to synagogue on shabbat - converts were no longer considered gentiles - they were now considered jews and of the physical bloodline of abraham as per God's commands
7. gentiles were allowed in synagogue even if they weren't converts - they were just not allowed in the jerusalem temple inner court - only allowed in outer court as were even jewish women as per God's commands

 

[Hidden In Him]

1. pual wrote almost exclusively to gentiles and the other apostles almost exclusively ti jews - so galatians and corinthian feast days and new moons and and foods and rituals were not the torah ones - they were pagan ones - they were going back to their pagan ways

Thanks for the response. Now this is the common response I normally get, but to me it is contradicted by Galatians 4:21 in relation to what he says about 12 verses earlier in the Chapter. That they were "turning again to the weak and beggarly principles," to which they desired again to be in bondage, and then mentioning their wanting "to be under law" don't mesh well with each other if they were wanting to return to pagan festivals yet be under Jewish law at the same time. Too incongruent for me. The argument many raise, however, is that he said they were returning "again" to the weak principles of the world. But that's where you get into close study of that phrase elsewhere, and in Colossians the expression is used very clearly of Jewish customs, and especially the sabbaths and new moons:

8 Beware lest anyone rob you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily... 16 Let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the body of Christ. (Colossians 2:8-9, 16-17)

Taken together, this strongly suggests that the Galatians were being seduced back into the same thing, and by "back" Paul meant backwards spiritually from where they originally came, and with respect to the Jewish Christian mindset they had been trained in. They were once free in Christ and didn't need to worry about observing Jewish customs but were now going backwards spiritually in light of apostolic teaching.

2. Jesus and all aposrles kept torah - as all jews were commanded to do until heaven and earth pass away
3. Messiah will come to fulfill the conquering Messiah prophecies - only the suffering Messiah prophecies have been fulfilled - at that time heaven and earth will pass away

Agreed.

 

[Hidden In Him]

4. circumcision for salvation is the issue the messianic jerusalem council addressed in Acts 21 - no where in torah did God say circumcision was for salvation - neither was torah keeping
5. judaizers is the name paul gave to those who insisted faith plus circumcision plus torah keeping = salvation -
6. for the first many years all messianics were jews or those who converted to judaism - they were the sect of judaism called the way which even paul was a member of - jews and converts would all have been circumcised and keeping torah including going to synagogue on shabbat - converts were no longer considered gentiles - they were now considered jews and of the physical bloodline of abraham as per God's commands
7. gentiles were allowed in synagogue even if they weren't converts - they were just not allowed in the jerusalem temple inner court - only allowed in outer court as were even jewish women as per God's commands

Agreed. With the possible exception of #6. I always thought you were a Jew by blood only, "Jew" being short for a descendant of Judah. But I could be mistaken there.

 

[Truthfrees]

Truthfrees, it appears I'm not going to be getting any answers for my posts, and it's no fun taking the trouble to get involved in discussions and be met with silence. I'd like to discuss it more, so tell me what you think of my arguments in Posts #577 and #580. I'll repost them here so you don't have to go back and look for them.

God bless.

Post #577:
You always have to interpret verses in light of the context in which they are found. That is what is so complicated when discussing what parts of "the law" are being discussed. But Paul points out clearly what parts of it he is discussing in Galatians:

2 Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me. 2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain. 3 Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. (see also verses 6-10).

Then he speaks of the covenant they had through Abraham, which again came through circumcision.

15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. 16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise. (Galatians 3:15-18)

Then we have this in Chapter 4:

8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods. 9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly principles, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. (Galatians 4:8-10)

Now what days and months and seasons and years is he referring to here? They were Judaizing, and coming under the sway of false teachers saying they should keep the Jewish days and months and years, i.e. the Sabbaths, new moons, festivals, and years of Jubilee, not after a spiritual manner which would have been acceptable but after the strictness of the Jews, even though they were Gentiles. That they were Judaizing is obvious enough from 4:21, where he says, "Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?"

So the "works of the law" he was saying they would be under a curse from if they placed themselves in bondgage to them were the following:

1. Circumcision (Galatians 2:1-10, and see also Galatians 5:1-6 where he again repeats it even more strongly), and
2. Observing the Jewish Holy Days (Galatians 4:8-10).

Nowhere in this letter does Paul denounce or encourage them to renounce the greatest two commandments of the Old Testament upon which the law and the prophets were based: To love the Lord their God with their whole heart, mind, soul and strength, and to love their neighbors as themselves. In fact, he specifically sanctions the continued keeping of the latter in Galatians 5:14:

11 Brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased. 12 I could wish that those who trouble you would even cut themselves off! 13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” (Galatians 5:11-14)

Be careful about quoting verses out of their context. He is not talking about Jewish law in its entirety there. He is talking about those parts of the law that were now rendered obsolete through the coming of Christ.
__________

Post #580:
[The interpretation that "fulfill" in Matthew 5:17-18 means the law has been done away with] is a contradiction of the internal context of the verse itself:

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

If it was "fulfilled" by Christ before heaven and earth passed away (and they have not yet), this would make Christ a liar, and we both know that cannot be the case. So it has to mean something different than that the law has been done away completely.

for_his_glory.

8. God said touching a dead body made one go into isolation for 7 days - and then they were clean again - the bubonic plague decimated entire villages because people were hugging and kissing and living with dead bodies of loved ones until they could be buried -
9. in paul's day gentiles were burying their loved ones in their homes - or cremating them and putting their ashes in beautiful pottery - this meant many gentile homes were graveyards - jews weren't interested in eating in gentile homes for this reason -
10. also gentiles blessed their food in the names of their gods and sometimes offered the first portion as a sacrifice to their gods - jews wanted nothing to do with this either

 

[Truthfrees]

Thanks for the response. Now this is the common response I normally get, but to me it is contradicted by Galatians 4:21 in relation to what he says about 12 verses earlier in the Chapter. That they were "turning again to the weak and beggarly principles," to which they desired again to be in bondage, and then mentioning their wanting "to be under law" don't mesh well with each other if they were wanting to return to pagan festivals yet be under Jewish law at the same time. Too incongruent for me. The argument many raise, however, is that he said they were returning "again" to the weak principles of the world. But that's where you get into close study of that phrase elsewhere, and in Colossians the expression is used very clearly of Jewish customs, and especially the sabbaths and new moons:

8 Beware lest anyone rob you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily... 16 Let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the body of Christ. (Colossians 2:8-9, 16-17)

Taken together, this strongly suggests that the Galatians were being seduced back into the same thing, and by "back" Paul meant backwards spiritually from where they originally came, and with respect to the Jewish Christian mindset they had been trained in. They were once free in Christ and didn't need to worry about observing Jewish customs but were now going backwards spiritually in light of apostolic teaching.


Agreed.

ok give me the exact addresses of the parts in question and i will take a few days to read many times and pray and get back to you when i have something to say - thanks for the intelligent friendly discussion - i was asking God for someone who could challenge me as a friend - God bless you

 

[Truthfrees]

Agreed. With the possible exception of #6. I always thought you were a Jew by blood only, "Jew" being short for a descendant of Judah. But I could be mistaken there.

i will try to find the torah portion where God said let them convert and become a son of israel - as a full jew - jews follow that command even today - anyone who converts enters the mikvah - his old gentile self is washed away and his new jewish self emerges - and from then on no one speaks of him as a covert but as a jew - a son of abraham and sarah

 

[Hidden In Him]

ok give me the exact addresses of the parts in question and i will take a few days to read many times and pray and get back to you when i have something to say - thanks for the intelligent friendly discussion - i was asking God for someone who could challenge me as a friend - God bless you

You can count on that last part. I actually have a Jehovahs Witness friend at another forum that I got along with well and had better conversations with than most of my orthodox friends. So I'm guessing someone I'm a little more in agreement with doctrinally (i.e. someone I don't think is a raving heretical lunatic, LoL) would be even easier for me to stomach, LoL.

But about the exact addresses, you mean the verses in question? If so, just the verses we have discussed so far. Maybe in particular how you interpret the phrase "basic principles of the world" in its uses in the New Testament. It is used once in Galatians and once in Colossians, with an additional use of just the word "principles" in Galatians 4:9.

Tell me how you interpret the word and the larger phrase it is a part of, and how the interpretation applies to our present discussion.

But those are just some ideas, if you want to pursue it.

 

[Truthfrees]

Thanks for the response. Now this is the common response I normally get, but to me it is contradicted by Galatians 4:21 in relation to what he says about 12 verses earlier in the Chapter. That they were "turning again to the weak and beggarly principles," to which they desired again to be in bondage, and then mentioning their wanting "to be under law" don't mesh well with each other if they were wanting to return to pagan festivals yet be under Jewish law at the same time. Too incongruent for me. The argument many raise, however, is that he said they were returning "again" to the weak principles of the world. But that's where you get into close study of that phrase elsewhere, and in Colossians the expression is used very clearly of Jewish customs, and especially the sabbaths and new moons:

8 Beware lest anyone rob you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily... 16 Let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the body of Christ. (Colossians 2:8-9, 16-17)

Taken together, this strongly suggests that the Galatians were being seduced back into the same thing, and by "back" Paul meant backwards spiritually from where they originally came, and with respect to the Jewish Christian mindset they had been trained in. They were once free in Christ and didn't need to worry about observing Jewish customs but were now going backwards spiritually in light of apostolic teaching.


Agreed.

You can count on that last part. I actually have a Jehovahs Witness friend at another forum that I got along with well and had better conversations with than most of my orthodox friends. So I'm guessing someone I'm a little more in agreement with doctrinally (i.e. someone I don't think is a raving heretical lunatic, LoL) would be even easier for me to stomach, LoL.

But about the exact addresses, you mean the verses in question? If so, just the verses we have discussed so far. Maybe in particular how you interpret the phrase "basic principles of the world" in its uses in the New Testament. It is used once in Galatians and once in Colossians, with an additional use of just the word "principles" in Galatians 4:9.

Tell me how you interpret the word and the larger phrase it is a part of, and how the interpretation applies to our present discussion.

But those are just some ideas, if you want to pursue it.

i guess i meant the above post - which parts did you mean contadicted what i said?- i dudn't understand you point for sure - and wasn't knowing what to read and study

 

[Hidden In Him]

i guess i meant the above post - which parts did you mean contadicted what i said?

Oh! Well you had said that Paul wrote almost exclusively to Gentiles but the other apostles almost exclusively to the Jews - so Galatian and Corinthian feast days and new moons and foods and rituals were not the torah ones - they were pagan ones - they were going back to their pagan ways."

I was disagreeing that they were going back to pagan ways, i.e. pagan festivals etc., because the context of two verses in partilcuar seem to contradict it. He mentioned that they were "turning again to the weak and beggarly principles" to which they desired again to be in bondage, yet also mentioned their wanting "to be under law" a few verses later. The two seem too incongruent for me, if it is to be interpreted that they were wanting to return to pagan festivals yet be under Jewish law at the same time, because the two don't go together well. No one desiring to be under Jewish law would likewise want to be embracing/ returning to Pagan festivals, because these were not condoned by Judaism. The things they sacrificed they sacrificed to demons.

Sorry if I don't explain things so clearly sometimes. I jump ahead too far in my thinking, and leave a lot out.

 

[Truthfrees]

Oh! Well you had said that Paul wrote almost exclusively to Gentiles but the other apostles almost exclusively to the Jews - so Galatian and Corinthian feast days and new moons and foods and rituals were not the torah ones - they were pagan ones - they were going back to their pagan ways."

I was disagreeing that they were going back to pagan ways, i.e. pagan festivals etc., because the context of two verses in partilcuar seem to contradict it. He mentioned that they were "turning again to the weak and beggarly principles" to which they desired again to be in bondage, yet also mentioned their wanting "to be under law" a few verses later. The two seem too incongruent for me, if it is to be interpreted that they were wanting to return to pagan festivals yet be under Jewish law at the same time, because the two don't go together well. No one desiring to be under Jewish law would likewise want to be embracing/ returning to Pagan festivals, because these were not condoned by Judaism. The things they sacrificed they sacrificed to demons.

Sorry if I don't explain things so clearly sometimes. I jump ahead too far in my thinking, and leave a lot out.

yes - can you quote me those scriptures you believe disprove what i said

 

[Hidden In Him]

yes - can you quote me those scriptures you believe disprove what i said

The primary scriptures I am using are both in Galatians 4 (v.9-10, and then v.21):

8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods. 9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly principles, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain... 21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?

 

[Hopeful]

You always have to interpret verses in light of the context in which they are found. That is what is so complicated when discussing what parts of "the law" are being discussed. But Paul points out clearly what parts of it he is discussing in Galatians:

As I wrote before, if you keep one Law you must keep them all.
"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them." (Gal 3:10)
Even if your context doesn't list every one of the 613 laws, doesn't it cover all of the Law?
We could easily substitute dietary requirements for circumcision, or feast keeping, or refusing to enter a Gentile's house.
None of those Laws apply to us of the NT.
The law of Christ does, however, as we are to love God with all our strength, and our neighbors as ourselves.
It is called the law of liberty by James..."But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." (James 1:25)

 

[Hopeful]

Jaybo, your interpretation is a contradiction of the internal context of the verse itself:

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

If it was "fulfilled" by Christ before heaven and earth passed away (and they have not yet), this would make Christ a liar, and we both know that cannot be the case. So it has to mean something different that the way you are interpreting it.

Thanks be to God that Jesus fulfilled it before the end of the earth.

 

[Hidden In Him]

As I wrote before, if you keep one Law you must keep them all.

But when Paul said this, he was speaking specifically of circumcision. In other words, for those Gentiles who allowed themselves to become convinced they needed to be circumcised, Paul was saying, "If you accept this, you will have to keep all the Jewish law, including all the unclean food laws, the strict observance of sabbaths, all of them."

"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them." (Gal 3:10)

Exactly. Same point.

We could easily substitute dietary requirements for circumcision, or feast keeping, or refusing to enter a Gentile's house.
None of those Laws apply to us of the NT.

Again, you are making the argument that God no longer requires us to love Him with our whole heart, mind, soul and strength, or love our neighbors as ourselves. Galatians 5:14 proves this is not what he was teaching.

The law of Christ does, however, as we are to love God with all our strength, and our neighbors as ourselves.

Again, these are two Old Testament laws, and the requirement to keep them had not changed. They were still in force.

Thanks be to God that Jesus fulfilled it before the end of the earth.

This is not what the passage actually states, however. It says that until Heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or tittle will pass from the law. Your position interprets it without the phrase "until Heaven and earth pass away," as if it simply says, "not one jot or tittle will pass from the law until all is fulfilled," but this is removing half the verse. When you read it like that, your interpretation is guaranteed to be skewed because you are interpreting only half the verse and ignoring the other half.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Why do you need external commandments if Jesus sent us the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth? The laws -- all of them including the so-called moral parts of the law -- are external, i.e., they are not a part of us. The Holy Spirit is internal; He is to be our guide, not some limited set of external rules.

I know you do not understand as for some reason you do not see the truth of this, so let's stop going back and forth about this issue. I am guided by the Holy Spirit internally. Period.

Are you suggesting that based on Paul's verses (you quoted) the ETERNAL, PERFECT Law of God is now dead? The writers including Father God ( Jeremiah 31:33) and Jesus were mistaken when they called the LAW eternal and prefect .
Question to you Jaybo is why were Father God ( Jeremiah 31:33) , Christ Jesus ( Mathew 5:17-18, Luke 16:17), and David ( Psalm 19:9-11, Psalms 119, Psalms not telling the truth, that the law of God is TEMPORARY and will die with Christ coming? Why were they calling it ETERNAL ( billions and zillions of yaers ) when the Law was to die in very short time after they made these "claims"
So, were they deciving us?
Requesting a brief/ concise answer please

 

[Truthfrees]

As I wrote before, if you keep one Law you must keep them all.
"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them." (Gal 3:10)
Even if your context doesn't list every one of the 613 laws, doesn't it cover all of the Law?
We could easily substitute dietary requirements for circumcision, or feast keeping, or refusing to enter a Gentile's house.
None of those Laws apply to us of the NT.
The law of Christ does, however, as we are to love God with all our strength, and our neighbors as ourselves.
It is called the law of liberty by James..."But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." (James 1:25)

if you keep them for salvation breaking one is breaking them all - meaning no one can possibly be saved by law keeping - God never said anyone can be saved by law keeping - only the grace plus law = salvation people started doing that to the gentiles

 

[Truthfrees]

The primary scriptures I am using are both in Galatians 4 (v.9-10, and then v.21):

8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods. 9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly principles, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain... 21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?

ok - i will work on this for a few days - weak principles - desire to be under the law - Galatians 4:9-10, 21