IS THERE A RAPTURE? Who will go? WHO'S THE BRIDE?

[jasoncran]

then that eliminates the millennial saints as they will be part of that. I do disagree on that. the idea that moses, all faithfull jews and Hebrews and the noachides is something I think we need to say they will be there. remember then if you believe on the YHWH and were faithful you did go to gan eden. the kingdom of heaven where is that?

 

[Chopper]

The problem with your post is that it doesn't line up with the scriptures.

The is one Gathering for all of those who are His, at His Coming.

He will come a second time. Hebrews 9:28

. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 1 Corinthians 15:22

... those who are Christ's, encompasses all those who are Christ's.

Look what Paul says -

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:51-52

You can not separate the Resurrection from the Rapture. ... caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

The gathering is those who are His. The dead will be raised and we will be changed. ... caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17


If we as a Church are going to come together and agree, please don't dismiss this very irrefutable truth.

The resurrection can not be separated from the rapture. The gathering encompasses both. ...At His Coming.


JLB

I don't think we are talking about a "resurrection" and rapture is not a biblical word. We are talking about three gatherings.

 

[JLB]

All you are doing is just speculating on what you have preconceived.

Not one person will acknowledge the truth of the six scriptures I have posted.

You have not presented them.

You have not discussed the truths that are stated in them.

You have digressed to only speculating with Human reasoning and have completely abandoned the scriptures.

The resurrection takes place, at His coming.

There is one Resurrection for all.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.

Not at His Comings, plural. But at His Coming, meaning ONE!

The Rapture can not be separated from the Resurrection.

6 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.


shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

The Resurrection can not be separated from the Rapture.

His Coming is at the end of the age!

His Coming is after the tribulation!

His Coming is not invisible, rather every eye will see him.

At His coming the lawless one will be destroyed, by the brightness of His Coming.

8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 1 Thessalonians 2:8

Why does everyone keep ignoring this simple basic fact.

Jesus Christ Himself will destroy the false messiah at His Coming!!!

How can this possibly take place before the tribulation.

Chopper please answer this.

How can Jesus' Coming happen before the tribulation, if it is the brightness of His Coming that destroys the antichrist?

The Gather happens at His Coming.

His Coming is after the tribulation.

Case Closed!


JLB

 

[Chopper]

Psalms 107:37
And sow fields and plant vineyards, And gather a fruitful harvest.

Exodus 23:10-11
"You shall sow your land for six years and gather in its yield, but on the seventh year you shall let it rest and lie fallow, so that the needy of your people may eat; and whatever they leave the beast of the field may eat. You are to do the same with your vineyard and your olive grove.


Exodus 34:21
"You shall work six days, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during plowing time and harvest you shall rest.

Leviticus 19:9
`Now when you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap to the very corners of your field, nor shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest.


Leviticus 23:22
`When you reap the harvest of your land, moreover, you shall not reap to the very corners of your field nor gather the gleaning of your harvest; you are to leave them for the needy and the alien. I am the LORD your God.'"


Exodus 34:22
"You shall celebrate the Feast of Weeks, that is, the first fruits of the wheat harvest, and the Feast of Ingathering at the turn of the year.


Isaiah 17:5
It will be even like the reaper gathering the standing grain, As his arm harvests the ears, Or it will be like one gleaning ears of grain In the valley of Rephaim.


Isaiah 18:4-5
For thus the LORD has told me, "I will look from My dwelling place quietly Like dazzling heat in the sunshine, Like a cloud of dew in the heat of harvest." For before the harvest, as soon as the bud blossoms And the flower becomes a ripening grape, Then He will cut off the sprigs with pruning knives And remove and cut away the spreading branches.


Isaiah 24:13
For thus it will be in the midst of the earth among the peoples, As the shaking of an olive tree, As the gleanings when the grape harvest is over.


Jeremiah 51:33
For thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: "The daughter of Babylon is like a threshing floor At the time it is stamped firm; Yet in a little while the time of harvest will come for her."


Hosea 6:11
Also, O Judah, there is a harvest appointed for you, When I restore the fortunes of My people.

It even speaks of a harvest as being a gathering. It says it will be like like among the peoples of the earth. It says it will be like gleanings and so forth. what does all this mean to you? You accept that there are two stages to a harvest, firfruits, and harvest. Ok, you're pounding down the home stretch brother. Now consider gleanings. I submit to you that the bride is taken before the great trib because they are ready, the others left behind are not. after the trib revelation says multitudes will come to him! This is the gleanings! First fruits, harvest, gleanings. It's in scripture. Please don't ignore these scriptures.

Very good, professor Edward.

 

[Chopper]

Maybe harvest is mid (70th week). Would the Lord gathering His bride even be counted as part of the harvest? hmmm.

The Lord is no wife beater, and the Church is promised to not have to endure Gods wrath which is poured out upon the earth from the seven bowls! Why would God pour out wrath upon His people? He will not! He loves us.

Jesus love His Bride so much that He gathers them before the seven year trib even starts. PRE-TRIB.

 

[Chopper]

Please address my post 270 EDITED

This is what Paul taught the Church about the Gathering at the resurrection.


JLB

I think the word resurrection is confusing.

 

[jasoncran]

what does the words dead in Christ mean? for at the twinkling of an eye the dead in Christ shall rise first.so we are dead to him when we are in the ground or are we with him. if we immediately go to him when we die then they would have no mention of this verse.

15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?

31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.

33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

the context is that theres a statement of paul that says how is that some say theres no resurrection and goes into His return, and what happens. its not a rapture but a judgement(talked about) with a raising of the dead at the same time.

 

[Chopper]

I think this happens pre-great -tribulation.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

..and the Lord descends from heaven, but it does not say that He comes to the earth at this time. Then after the great trib...the gleanings are gathered.

The Bride, pre-trib. The likewarm church members (those who get right with the Lord during the first half of the trib.) will be gathered mid-trib.

 

[JLB]

Jesus love His Bride so much that He gathers them before the seven year trib even starts. PRE-TRIB.

No Scripture.

Invalid post!

 

[Chopper]

This does not line up with -

28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

and again -

... looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,


JLB

He will appear, in the clouds with His arms open wide for His Bride.

 

[Chopper]

This very well could be, though the first half of the trib is supposed to very peaceful and ok, and it is the 2nd half where all hell breaks loose, if you'll pardon the pun. It is mid trib where the restrainer is taken away and that it why!

You are correct, I think the first half of the trib. will be a testing time for the lukewarm Christians. There will be mild to not-so-mild tribulation. The mark of the beast may be at this time and those lukewarm believers will have to decide whether or not to take the mark. When the family is starving because they can't buy bread because they don't have the mark, wellllll. They will either take the mark or starve to death or even be killed. The first half of the trib. will separate the true believers from the imposters. They wouldn't really live for the Lord like the Bride was, so they missed the gathering, but now they are serious, some of them.

 

[Chopper]

No Scripture.

Invalid post!

Rev. 3:10 "Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth."

 

[Chopper]

what does the words dead in Christ mean? for at the twinkling of an eye the dead in Christ shall rise first.so we are dead to him when we are in the ground or are we with him. if we immediately go to him when we die then they would have no mention of this verse.

the context is that theres a statement of paul that says how is that some say theres no resurrection and goes into His return, and what happens. its not a rapture but a judgement(talked about) with a raising of the dead at the same time.

Don't know what your asking. And to who?

 

[Chopper]

then that eliminates the millennial saints as they will be part of that. I do disagree on that. the idea that moses, all faithfull jews and Hebrews and the noachides is something I think we need to say they will be there. remember then if you believe on the YHWH and were faithful you did go to gan eden. the kingdom of heaven where is that?

What?

 

[jasoncran]

why is that called a rapture when the context of it says resurrection? the bodily resurrection is mentioned. if its just removal and hiding of the church then why does paul mention the body being raised up? if you take that clouds to be literal then you must also take the YHWH returning to Egypt in a cloud. see is 19 for that.

 

[jasoncran]

What?

how does the Hebrews believe in the messiah? how do they atone for their sins? by mosaic law, or the blood? if the blood. then I as a jew am no different then they are. I need the blood as much as they do. I have never seen any futurist willing to actually understand what they say.most avoid this simple question and when they are forced to answer they still cling to the chialism of their view.

 

[reba]

Jason give Chopper some time to learn how to read Jasonese ....

 

[jasoncran]

blast, if it was worth it to make money and didn't cost soo much I would take remedial English.

 

[reba]

Jason you are tops One would think with all the reading you do it would come easy ... Back to topic....

 

[jasoncran]

simple take matthew 24 in context. with the you being ONLY those there that heard it. and then take one Corinthians 15 in context with what is asked and talked about it will have nothing to do with a removal of the church. now then if you want to take the seven year trib without including the thought that a time frame to end the trib would include those in the trib wont have a bible or even know about jesus and the gospel.be my guest.