Is TULIP biblical?

[journeymanisnothing]

Duh right Im quoting scripture. Man by nature is described Rom 3:9-19

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
man is born UNDER SIN. The word under is key hypo:
to be under, i. e. subject to the power of, any person or thing

Thats total depravity, being under the power of sin

And the passage you're citing describes no children, but adults who left the way of understanding. They were fine, until they left.

 

[Iconoclast]

And the passage you're citing describes no children, but adults who left the way of understanding. They were fine, until they left.

A main reason many people like you do not get it,is, you are looking to explain away the texts.
hint: every text does not have to say everything according to what you want.
The text does not give any age indication, but rather says all people.
You could re write scripture like a JW does, if you are going to replace every word and phrase.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

A main reason many people like you do not get it,is, you are looking to explain away the texts.

Then why can I address the text you cited, but you can't?

hint: every text does not have to say everything according to what you want.

I'm not looking for what "I want."

The text does not give any age indication, but rather says all people.

Look at the text,

What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise, for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; Rom.3:9

Paul means people who have understanding of goid and evil, whether by the law, or by conscience. That's the context of Romans from beginning to end.

Rom.1 shows mankind gradually leaving the knowledge of God. Rom.2 shows Jews and gentiles both without excuse because God imparted His knowledge to all mankind, both Jews and gentiles.

You could re write scripture like a JW does, if you are going to replace every word and phrase.

I don't want to change what it says. Here's the problem,

For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted,which did put all things under him. 1Cor.15:27

JWs think Paul is comparing Jesus with his Father. So did the reformers. So do you.

 

[brightfame52]

And the passage you're citing describes no children, but adults who left the way of understanding. They were fine, until they left.

The passage describes man by nature, that is as we are born into this world, hence Jesus says a man must be born again

 

[journeymanisnothing]

The passage describes man by nature, that is as we are born into this world, hence Jesus says a man must be born again

I understand we were created in Gods' Image. By defiling ourselves through our own sins, we need to be born again by the Holy Spirit of Christ Who showed us how God Himself on earth desired peace with all people.

Now go read 1Cor.15:27. Then you and Iconoclast and maybe some other reformers and JWs will understand Paul wasn't comparing Jesus with His Father.

The core to all error is when Jesus isn't being seen as God.

 

[GodsGrace]

The passage describes man by nature, that is as we are born into this world, hence Jesus says a man must be born again

Actually, Romans 3:12, which is the verse in question, is referring to
Psalm 14:1-3

NASB 1995 Par ▾ Folly and Wickedness of Men. For the choir director. A Psalm of David. 1The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good. 2The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men To see if there are any who understand, Who seek after God. 3They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one. 4Do all the workers of wickedness not know,

THE FOOL says in his heart.....


And again:

Psalm 53:1-4
1The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God,”
They are corrupt, and have committed abominable injustice;
There is no one who does good.
2God has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men
To see if there is anyone who understands,
Who seeks after God.

3Every one of them has turned aside; together they have become corrupt;
There is no one who does good, not even one.

4Have the workers of wickedness no knowledge,
Who eat up My people as though they ate bread
And have not called upon God?

5There they were in great fear where no fear had been;
For God scattered the bones of him who encamped against you;
You put them to shame, because God had rejected them.

6Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion!
When God restores His captive people,
Let Jacob rejoice, let Israel be glad.



David is speaking about THE WICKED,
and specifically the wicked that attached Israel, God's people.

They were defeated, their bones were scattered.
God hated them as much as they hated God.

There is a specific people in these verses.
It is not speaking about the lost in general.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

God hated them as much as they hated God.

wondering,
This sentiment isn't true. By the Witness of God Himself, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ it isn't true. His Testimony is that He came not to judge sinners. Therefore after He sprinkled all the people with His Blood (His Life) and The Throne in Heaven (The Mercy Seat) overshadowing the Ark of the Covenant where His Law resided.....He sat down.

So sinners beat Gods' Son and God forgave gave them because Jesus is God.

There is a specific people in these verses.

It's anyone who denies they have wandered away from the good things of God.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar and his word is not in us. 1Jn.1:10

It is not speaking about the lost in general

It's speaking of everyone who has ever forgotton God.

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,
This sentiment isn't true. By the Witness of God Himself, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ it isn't true. His Testimony is that He came not to judge sinners. Therefore after He sprinkled all the people with His Blood (His Life) and The Throne in Heaven (The Mercy Seat) overshadowing the Ark of the Covenant where His Law resided.....He sat down.

So sinners beat Gods' Son and God forgave gave them because Jesus is God.

It's anyone who denies they have wandered away from the good things of God.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar and his word is not in us. 1Jn.1:10

It's speaking of everyone who has ever forgotton God.

I guess you can look at it that way.
But Psalms is speaking about specific persons.
1 John 2:9 is speaking about specific persons.
If we don't read scripture with the intent that it had when
it was written, it then could be used to mean whatever we
want it to.

Some things that Jesus said was said directly to the Apostles.
He said: I HAVE CHOSEN YOU. He meant the Apostles.
The reformed on this forum understand it to mean that Jesus chose
everyone that is saved.

And this is why we must read scripture to mean what it was meant
to mean when it was written. Some verses we can generalize, and some verses we can't.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I guess you can look at it that way.

Try looking at it that way and see what happens.

But Psalms is speaking about specific persons.
1 John 2:9 is speaking about specific persons.
If we don't read scripture with the intent that it had when
it was written, it then could be used to mean whatever we want it to.

I agree. That's why Gods' immutable word said from the very beginning of creation, God ordained that whoever leaves His Light will dwell in darkness. Whoever understands good and evil and handles that knowledge improperly is going to die.

That's what it says and that's all it says.

Some things that Jesus said was said directly to the Apostles.
He said: I HAVE CHOSEN YOU. He meant the Apostles.

He meant believers who needed serious schooling. Those early brothers understood the Justice of God. They wanted the judgment of God to fall on their Roman overlords. They also believed their God was merciful.

Their problem was they had no clue how far their Gods' mercy went. They got an education from Jesus that flipped them upside down.

The reformed on this forum understand it to mean that Jesus chose
everyone that is saved.

Yes and everyone who is saved must acknowledge his or her sins whether Jew or gentile as Jesus has proven He will forgive any sinner who repents.

And this is why we must read scripture to mean what it was meant to mean when it was written.

Always what the message was. Yes.

Some verses we can generalize, and some verses we can't.

No. There's some lesson in everything for everyone. That was Pauls' entire argument concerning the law,

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Rom.3:19 NIV

Repentance avoids judgment. And the repentant show that mercy to the unthankful. Because that's what Jesus did.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I was taught to look both ways before crossing.

But you did not address my post now did you? If you run out and drag your child out of harm’s way, after they vehemently told you “No!!” then you’ve violated their will. So, if God would be a tyrant for doing that, then so would you.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Of course salvation is a gift.
I'm sure you know Ephesians 2:8 which I had just posted.

The reason you have a problem with the word ACHIEVE is because you believe you have nothing to do with your salvation. The NT exhorts us to behave in a godly manner. As if we individually had control over this.
You don't believe you have to ACCEPT Jesus' gift to you. Most gifts have to be accepted - they aren't forced upon you.

Here are some synonyms for the word ACHIEVE:
Strongest matches

• accomplish
• attain
• bring about
• carry out
• complete
• conclude
• do
• earn
• enact
• end
• gain
• manage
• obtain
• produce
• reach
• realize
• resolve
• settle
• sign
• solve
• win
• work out

Paul tells us to work out our salvation.
Philippians 2:12-13

He also tells us that we will not have our salvation till the end of our life.
1 Peter 1:5

Working out your salvation means; for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. Even the working out our salvation is done by the Spirit of God and not us.

Obtain
Produce
Enact
Bring about
Reach
Accomplish
Win
Do
Earn

These all refer to “you did it yourself” and that is most certainly not a gift of God but works based salvation.

 

[Iconoclast]

Actually, Romans 3:12, which is the verse in question, is referring to
Psalm 14:1-3

​

NASB 1995 Par ▾ Folly and Wickedness of Men. For the choir director. A Psalm of David. 1The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good. 2The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men To see if there are any who understand, Who seek after God. 3They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one. 4Do all the workers of wickedness not know,

THE FOOL says in his heart.....


And again:

Psalm 53:1-4
1The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God,”
They are corrupt, and have committed abominable injustice;
There is no one who does good.
2God has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men
To see if there is anyone who understands,
Who seeks after God.

3Every one of them has turned aside; together they have become corrupt;
There is no one who does good, not even one.

4Have the workers of wickedness no knowledge,
Who eat up My people as though they ate bread
And have not called upon God?

5There they were in great fear where no fear had been;
For God scattered the bones of him who encamped against you;
You put them to shame, because God had rejected them.

6Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion!
When God restores His captive people,
Let Jacob rejoice, let Israel be glad.



David is speaking about THE WICKED,

Every unsaved person is wicked.

and specifically the wicked that attached Israel, God's people.

They were defeated, their bones were scattered.
God hated them as much as they hated God.

There is a specific people in these verses.
It is not speaking about the lost in general.

The text does not say anything like that.You are making that up

 

[electedbyHim]

Every unsaved person is wicked.

The text does not say anything like that.You are making that up

She missed the whole point.

The unregenerate are wicked. No, not one good.

 

[Iconoclast]

I guess you can look at it that way.
But Psalms is speaking about specific persons.

Not at all, it does not limit who is in view.

1 John 2:9 is speaking about specific persons.
If we don't read scripture with the intent that it had when
it was written, it then could be used to mean whatever we
want it to.

Some things that Jesus said was said directly to the Apostles.
He said: I HAVE CHOSEN YOU. He meant the Apostles.

Sometimes it was just the Apostles, but several times it was all the elect who had been chosen;
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

The reformed on this forum understand it to mean that Jesus chose
everyone that is saved.

There will be no non elect person in heaven. You seem to hate that truth for some reason/

And this is why we must read scripture to mean what it was meant
to mean when it was written. Some verses we can generalize, and some verses we can't.

Then why do you hate the truth.

 

[Iconoclast]

She missed the whole point.

The unregenerate are wicked. No, not one good.

All of those who oppose the grace of God, do miss it. They do not understand how wicked sin is, so they think everyone is ok.

 

[electedbyHim]

All of those who oppose the grace of God, do miss it. They do not understand how wicked sin is, so they think everyone is ok.

I have noticed this myself.

Basically all humans are good, you know, good people go to heaven. Sin is taken lightly and should not be pointed out to offend anyone.

Filthy rags.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

But you did not address my post now did you? If you run out and drag your child out of harm’s way, after they vehemently told you “No!!” then you’ve violated their will. So, if God would be a tyrant for doing that, then so would you.

That's your Calvinist assumption that has permeated society.

As good parents we correct our children to where they know enough to not run into traffic.

Your belief that a child who was taught why people should't run into traffic would then do just that and on top of it "vehemently" tell his father No! when corrected is how school boards made a mess of the public school system in the USA.

God does expect children to grown from diapers to the ootty chair etc.

 

[SovereignGrace]

That's your Calvinist assumption that has permeated society.

As good parents we correct our children to where they know enough to not run into traffic.

Your belief that a child who was taught why people should't run into traffic would then do just that and on top of it "vehemently" tell his father No! when corrected is how school boards made a mess of the public school system in the USA.

God does expect children to grown from diapers to the ootty chair etc.

But again, even the best parents have children who grow up to be bad ppl. You still haven’t addressed my initial post. If your child gets away from you and ends up in the road, will you plead for them to get out of the road, or drag them to safety if they refuse to obey your command?

 

[SovereignGrace]

That's your Calvinist assumption that has permeated society.

As good parents we correct our children to where they know enough to not run into traffic.

Your belief that a child who was taught why people should't run into traffic would then do just that and on top of it "vehemently" tell his father No! when corrected is how school boards made a mess of the public school system in the USA.

God does expect children to grown from diapers to the ootty chair etc.

So, all children fully obey their parents at all times? Absolutely not. Kids will push their parent’s boundaries to see what they can get away with. Even the best children rebel at times.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

But again, even the best parents have children who grow up to be bad ppl.

No they don't because the very 1st Parent of all is God. Believers simply realize their true parents are Christ and the church,

For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother and sister and mother. Mt.12:50

"Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospell will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life.
Mk.10:29-30 NIV

You still haven’t addressed my initial post. If your child gets away from you and ends up in the road, will you plead for them to get out of the road, or drag them to safety if they refuse to obey your command?

I would drag him my son or her my daughter out of the road, sit them down and lovingly explain why he or she was going to get a spanking for
vehemently (<---I love that lol) defying me.

You seem completely unaware that poopy babies grow up to wipe their own butts. It's called correction. God corrects us to train us to be more like Him. That's why God corrects sinners,

If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? Heb.12:7

The Messiah needed no correction but taught by example so,

the chastisement of our peace was upon him Isa.53:5

For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. Heb.12:11 ESV