Is TULIP biblical?

[jasonc]

I sat under a reformed Baptist pastor for many years.

And all of them preach that Jesus was being punished by his Father in place of sinners, a doctrine called "penal substitution", or "substitutionary sacrifice."

I understand people who commit sin are sinners. I know we've all committed sin. I agree sinners CANNOT transform themselves into the Image of Christ without His help.

I never denied needing my very breath. I never said God didn't give me a mind to think with and I don't believe because I'm a sinner, I'm flawed and in fact filthy in Gods' sight, my breath or my mind have completely left me.

That's the doctrine the reformed there i highlighted of total depravity. MAN CAN'T WITHOUT God change from a sinner .He is by nature not able to do things that please God and is estranged .

Point made

The reformed have their issues but None of them ignore the call to preach to the lost of they follow the command . Every church has incongruous teachings .the arministd here assume that one has soo much free will that he can transform himself in a matter over arching doctrine without the help of God yet then deny such statements when dealing with the reformed and confronted.

You don't get that at all .logic and reason how does my mind understand that an eternal being ,co existent ,co equal with God ,die ? How is God one and yet three persons in nature ?

You can't reason that . It's revealed .I speak as a former anti trinitarian.

No argument ever changed me to believe it .I asked God in faith while reading the Bible and I believed it when He said He was the Eternal Godhead.

Greater minds then us who understand science and engineering can't understand Gods word .Stephen Hawkins is one .

 

[jasonc]

Universalism isn't in the bible .

Not even the arminist pastors I know but that m

 

[electedbyHim]

Then you tell me why Jesus put up with being spit on and mocked, because the scriptures say,

“A son honors his father, and a servant his master. If then I am a father, where is my honor? And if I am a master, where is my fear? says the LORD of hosts to you, O priests, who despise my name. But you say, ‘How have we despised your name?’ Mal.1:6

You tell me why Jesus like His Father and my Father allowed people to sin against Him without immediately condemning them as scripture attests He had every right to?

Jesus gave Moses the law to humble sinners. Why don't you seem to understand that Jesus showed all mankind what sin against God really looks like.

Do you think God approves of bearing false witness against your neighbor?
I can't see how, but you seem to be saying God wanted Jesus tortured in violation of the law. Pllease clarify yourself.

Israel wanted a king like other nations. They didn't want an invisible King,

And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them. 1Sam.8:7 KJV

And this gospel has never changed,m. When Jesus appears as our Creator He will say,

those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. Lk.19:7 KJV

So we know from the beginning God has only ever wanted sinners to turn toward His forgivness, honor Him for it and be forgiving to others.

The end of the unrepentant is because God decided to show Himself to mankind and the unrepentant weren't ready.

What was the purpose of Christ's crucifixion?

 

[jasonc]

God prefers mercy over judgement but he will judge the wicked .

 

[brightfame52]

Then why did Nicodemus visit Jesus?

He was curious. He has observed a man doing miracles. Then again it could have been that Jesus had already quickened him since eventually he became a believer,

But that doesnt matter, man by nature doesnt seek God nor understand Him, and the natural man doesnt receive the things of the Spirit of God.

 

[jasonc]

My point is simply Calvanism seems to teach that once we have believed in Jesus, God doesn't expect us to grow up.

He doesn't, because from His point of view, "God as man" put the fleshly desire of man to seek retribution to death. Not the Godly right to execute sinners please understand.

What the Messiah did was subject Himself to a flesh body where,

the devil had completed every temptation, he departed from him until a more opportune time. Lk.4:13 NET

He defeated death because of Who He is and always had been. I'm stunned by the callousness of anyone thinking God approves of utter madness.

The 3 are all very patient when things go upside down.

I don't see anything wrong with the "Trinity" idea as far as what I think it says. I know as They are described in scripture it is impossible for any One of them to disagree with the Other Two.
Therefore if men disagree about what God said then God isn't the liar. Not even as a Man was God a liar,

the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent. 1Sam.15:29 KJV

So God could appear as a man, but not a liar and Jesus never needed to repent for any thing He did or even thought about.

I asked Him if poured out His wrath on His Son and He said no, mankind did. That's when all scripture falls into place.

I wonder how I would perceive God if I became a quadriplegic.
You know my friend, Darwin had turmoil reconciling a good and merciful God with the untimely deaths of some of his children.

Your point?

The point you ignore that growth is from God .we ieven the reformed teach that growth is a must .pastor mentioned two weeks ago .

Universalism at it's finest God didn't flood the earth ,he didn't judge sodom .

Isiah was wrong on that the chapter 53 where he says Jesus was bruised for our inquities .the inquity of our sins laid upon him

Not God lied about that to isiah .

 

[journeymanisnothing]

God prefers mercy over judgement but he will judge the wicked .

So Jesus didn't condemn his accusers but he will Judge the unrepentant.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

What was the purpose of Christ's crucifixion?

And I told you Jesus showed Gods' longsuffering towards sin against Him.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

He was curious. He has observed a man doing miracles. Then again it could have been that Jesus had already quickened him since eventually he became a believer,

But that doesnt matter, man by nature doesnt seek God nor understand Him, and the natural man doesnt receive the things of the Spirit of God.

So it could be this or that but it doesn't matter to you because one interferes with your version.
Me? I'm puzzled by believers in Jesus who interpret Gods' word differently since His Spirit must agrre on doctrine.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Your point?
The point you ignore that growth is from God .we ieven the reformed teach that growth is a must .pastor mentioned two weeks ago .

Does growth include knowing only Jesus has any right as Judge to condemn anyone?

Universalism at it's finest God didn't flood the earth ,he didn't judge sodom .

God certainly did flood the earth and burn Sodom. Peter says when Jesus returns it will be like the days of Noah, only the flood will be fire and that will end the lives of the unrepentant for all eternity.

Isiah was wrong on that the chapter 53 where he says Jesus was bruised for our inquities .the inquity of our sins laid upon him

Not God lied about that to isiah .

And instead of killing sinners Jesus took their abuse just as my Father in Heaven does in Spirit daily.
I think I'm done in this thread.

 

[brightfame52]

So it could be this or that but it doesn't matter to you because one interferes with your version.
Me? I'm puzzled by believers in Jesus who interpret Gods' word differently since His Spirit must agrre on doctrine.

It really doesnt matter, men by nature are dead to God, they dont seek after God, this describes all of us by nature, even me and nicky Rom 3:9-19

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

It really doesnt matter, men by nature are dead to God, they dont seek after God, this describes all of us by nature, even me and nicky Rom 3:9-19

Merry Christmas brightflame.
You keep saying this but keep ignoring what Paul said in the beginning of Romans 1 & 2.

Paul says man became hardened to God over time. He's saying the father people walked away from what they once knew was right, they began worshipping even things that were beneath them in the creation order.

You've obviously read this many times. Paul says good and evil are learned, cultivated.

Of course it's all the work of Chrisrs' Spirit. We're following Him. His Spirit leads us where to go, but leads us way more often in how to go. How to conduct ourselves no matter where we go daily.

Running away from God is simply not listening to Him.

 

[electedbyHim]

And I told you Jesus showed Gods' longsuffering towards sin against Him.

Christ did not pay for the sins, stand in place for the sins of His chosen people?

 

[brightfame52]

Merry Christmas brightflame.
You keep saying this but keep ignoring what Paul said in the beginning of Romans 1 & 2.

Paul says man became hardened to God over time. He's saying the father people walked away from what they once knew was right, they began worshipping even things that were beneath them in the creation order.

You've obviously read this many times. Paul says good and evil are learned, cultivated.

Of course it's all the work of Chrisrs' Spirit. We're following Him. His Spirit leads us where to go, but leads us way more often in how to go. How to conduct ourselves no matter where we go daily.

Running away from God is simply not listening to Him.

Rom 1-2 also describes man by nature, so Rom 1:18-3:19 all describes men by nature ! Paul sets the foundation for Salvation by Grace because by nature man is hopelessly lost, even when they're very religious

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Rom 1-2 also describes man by nature, so Rom 1:18-3:19 all describes men by nature !

Yes but Rom.1-2 says Jews and gentiles all have a conscience and the ability to know God through learning and you're ignoring the fact that Paul is saying mankind knows God from those sources, but wandered away from Him and then became vain in their thoughts.

Paul never taught that all of Adam and Eves' children cared nothing for God.

Paul sets the foundation for Salvation by Grace

By Grace, Jesus didn't become wrathful against sinners. Even against sinners who treated Him shamefully,

Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? Mt.26:53 NIV

because by nature man is hopelessly lost, even when they're very religious

By "nature" man wouldn't even be alive.

We've talked about the High Priest sprinkling the Throne (The Mercy Seat) which sat over the ark of the covenant which He also sprinkled with The Sacrifice.

Since God ordained the law by Moses, only the high priest could enter the holiest place once a year to sanctify it with blood. Then he had to leave orGod would kill him.

Our High Priest then sat on That Throne. Do you understand?

feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Act.20:28 YLT

When Christ returns as God He will sit in judgment as Judge Himself over all mankind from start to finish and angels also.

Those unrepentant for sinning against the Son and His Father and the Holy Spirit will be unprepared to meet Him and they will die.

 

[Free]

He paid unjustly for sins because He stood in place of our Father.

I am come in my Father's name Jn.5:43 KJV

the exact representation of his being, Heb.1:3 NIV

Our Savior showed perfectly how His Father endures sin against Himself.

That sin needs to be forgiven and if the asker is sincere forgivness will be granted.

God's holiness demands justice for sin committed against him; if there is no justice, no penalty for sin, then God isn't just. In order to satisfy the need for justice, the Son willfully obeyed the Father and died on the cross (John 10:15, 17; Rom 5:19; Phil 2:8) in our place (Isa 53:5-6, 11-12; Rom 4:25), taking our sin upon himself (Rom 6:10; 2 Cor 5:21). Sin is only forgiven because Jesus's blood made propitiation for our sins (Rom 3:25; 5:9; Heb 2:17; 1 John 2:2; 1 John 4:10). All of that happened in accordance with God's plan (Isa 53:10; Rom 5:6; Acts 2:23).

Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
Rom 3:26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. (ESV)

Rom 5:6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die—
Rom 5:8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.
Rom 5:11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. (ESV)

Notice, also, that as brightfame52 pointed out, what Paul says in Romans begins with the depravity of man. As I've stated before, salvation is of God from start to finish, because man on his own is unable to see the light of the gospel (2 Cor 4:4). We are, as Paul says, "by nature children of wrath" (Eph 2:3). Sin and evil aren't "cultivated," they are inborn, part of our nature. Anyone who has observed toddlers knows that they don't have to be taught to sin, they have to be taught to do good.

I really don't know how you can claim that the "Our Savior showed perfectly how His Father endures sin against Himself." The Father doesn't endure sins against himself apart from the blood of Jesus, which covers the sins of those who have faith and believe. This is the whole reason Jesus is returning in judgement--because the Father does not endure sins against Himself. Justice must be served one way or another; either through faith and trust in Christ or getting thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes but Rom.1-2 says Jews and gentiles all have a conscience and the ability to know God through learning and you're ignoring the fact that Paul is saying mankind knows God from those sources, but wandered away from Him and then became vain in their thoughts.

Paul never taught that all of Adam and Eves' children cared nothing for God.

By Grace, Jesus didn't become wrathful against sinners. Even against sinners who treated Him shamefully,

Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? Mt.26:53 NIV

By "nature" man wouldn't even be alive.

We've talked about the High Priest sprinkling the Throne (The Mercy Seat) which sat over the ark of the covenant which He also sprinkled with The Sacrifice.

Since God ordained the law by Moses, only the high priest could enter the holiest place once a year to sanctify it with blood. Then he had to leave orGod would kill him.

Our High Priest then sat on That Throne. Do you understand?

feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Act.20:28 YLT

When Christ returns as God He will sit in judgment as Judge Himself over all mankind from start to finish and angels also.

Those unrepentant for sinning against the Son and His Father and the Holy Spirit will be unprepared to meet Him and they will die.

Rom 3 describes all men by nature, no exceptions Rom 3:9-19

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Rom 3 describes all men by nature, no exceptions Rom 3:9-19

I wasn't trying to make an exception.

What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

As I pointed out,

For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; Rom.2:12

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Therefore,

Don’t you see how wonderfully kind, tolerant, and patient God is with you? Does this mean nothing to you? Can’t you see that his kindness is intended to turn you from your sin? Rom.2:4 NLT

 

[brightfame52]

I wasn't trying to make an exception.

As I pointed out,

For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; Rom.2:12

Therefore,

Don’t you see how wonderfully kind, tolerant, and patient God is with you? Does this mean nothing to you? Can’t you see that his kindness is intended to turn you from your sin? Rom.2:4 NLT

Nothing has changed, this passage describes all people by nature,

Rom 3:9-19

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Also the natural man understands not the things of the Spirit, they are foolishness to him, he cant know them, 1 Cor 2:14
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Nothing has changed

Peoole can still reason