Bible Study Is Water Baptism Necessary for Salvation?

[Jethro Bodine]

So Jesus got it wrong when he said
"He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16)

And Peter got it wrong when he wrote
"Baptism,......, now saves you, (1Pet 3:21)

??????

You 'save' yourself when you obey any of the Lord's commands. Like when a woman fulfills the duties associated with child bearing (1 Timothy 2:15). What you don't understand is you don't 'make' yourself saved when you obey the Lord's commands. That happens entirely through the forgiveness of your sins.

 

[Mungo]

another of your no-scripture opinions.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

NOWHERE does scripture say we are saved by faith alone.

What it does say is righteousness is credited by faith, not works.

Romans 4:5-6
5However, to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6And David speaks likewise of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works

No where in Paul's teaching does he say a man is made righteous by certain works, just not works of the law, as the Catholics claim. He contrasts works with believing, not works with certain other works. Justification is entirely on the basis of one's believing, not their works.

'Faith alone' is James' argument and that is not talking about how a person is made righteous.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

another of your no-scripture opinions.

I quoted 1 Timothy 2:15. Is a woman made righteous by having and raising kids just as a person is made righteous by baptism?

 

[Mungo]

I quoted 1 Timothy 2:15. Is a woman made righteous by having and raising kids just as a person is made righteous by baptism?

You claimed

You 'save' yourself when you obey any of the Lord's commands.

And you emphasised the any.
You gave no scripture for that.
Whatever Paul meant in 1 Timothy 2:15 he did not say that we 'save' ourselves when we obey any of the Lord's commands.

You are still avoiding Jesus words "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16)
and Peter's words "Baptism,......, now saves you", (1Pet 3:21)

 

[Randy]

Exactly. But Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16)
And as I pointed out earlier

Jesus said faith+baptism = salvation


Where does it say that baptism is just an outward expression of anything?
Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16)


Paul is addressing those who have already been saved. He is not giving a plan of salvation for those who are not yet saved. He addresses those he is writing to in Rom 1 :7-8

To all God’s beloved in Rome, who are called to be saints:
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is proclaimed in all the world.
And again in Rom 6:17-18
But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.

And Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16)
NOWHERE does scripture say we are saved by faith alone.
Jesus says it is faith + baptism

He who believes and is baptized is saved so what Jesus stated is true. He didn't state one who believes in Him but isn't baptized won't be saved.

Jesus also stated He who believes in Him will never die. (nothing about baptism) so that also is true.

The importance then is "faith".

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith

I not against baptism.

God reconciled us to Himself through the blood of Jesus which was shed on the cross.
Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

Water baptism was shown as the main method of the outward confession of receiving Christ. It is not a requirement in of itself for salvation. For one can receive Christ through prayer and confess such with their mouth openly. God is looking at the persons heart.

 

[Mungo]

He who believes and is baptized is saved so what Jesus stated is true. He didn't state one who believes in Him but isn't baptized won't be saved.

So what? That is a different condition.

Jesus also stated He who believes in Him will never die. (nothing about baptism) so that also is true.

And Peter says "Baptism,......, now saves you", (1Pet 3:21) so that is also true.

Paul writes "he saved us….. through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit". (Titus 3:5).

Paul says "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Rom 10:13)

Peter (said) to them, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit……. Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand persons were added that day……. And every day the Lord added to their number those who were being saved. (Acts 2:38, 41, 47)
We cannot just pick out one of these as the way to be saved. We need to see them as all different elements of the salvation process.

The importance then is "faith".

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith

I not against baptism.

God reconciled us to Himself through the blood of Jesus which was shed on the cross.
Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

Water baptism was shown as the main method of the outward confession of receiving Christ. It is not a requirement in of itself for salvation. For one can receive Christ through prayer and confess such with their mouth openly. God is looking at the persons heart.

He who believes and is baptized is saved so what Jesus stated is true. He didn't state one who believes in Him but isn't baptized won't be saved.

Jesus also stated He who believes in Him will never die. (nothing about baptism) so that also is true.

The importance then is "faith".

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith

I not against baptism.

God reconciled us to Himself through the blood of Jesus which was shed on the cross.
Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

Water baptism was shown as the main method of the outward confession of receiving Christ. It is not a requirement in of itself for salvation. For one can receive Christ through prayer and confess such with their mouth openly. God is looking at the persons heart.

But you are against baptism because you don't believe what Jesus said, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16).

If you read through the scriptures you will see Jesus' plan for our initial salvation and how that happens.

“Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”

In these words Jesus sets out the 3 step process for our initial justification
preach the gospel; believe the gospel; be baptised.

We can see these three steps in the Acts of the Apostles.

At Pentecost (Acts 2:14-40)
But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words……Jesus of Nazareth, … you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death….Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ…. [preach]

Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” (believe)

Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins…..Then those who gladly received his word were baptized [be baptised)

Philip in Samaria (Acts 8:5-12)
Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria and preached Christ to them. [preach]

But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, [believe]

both men and women were baptized. [be baptised]

You can see exactly the same pattern with:
Philip with the Ethiopian (Acts 8:26-38)
Cornelius (Acts 10:34-48)
Lydia (Acts 16:13-15)
The Jailer (Acts 16:30-33)
12 men at Ephesus (Acts 19:1-5)

 

[donadams]

Yes necessary for the new covenant!


*this promise acts 2:38-39 is a sacred oath from God ez 36:25-27 and a sacred oath is a sacrament!

Initiation!!!


Faith & Baptism is the initiation of the new and eternal covenant!

You cannot enter on you’re own or by “faith alone”!

You cannot receive Christ or grace by “faith alone”!

“Accept Christ as you’re personal lord and savior” is fundamentalist tradition not found scripture!

Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Baptismal regeneration a new creation in Christ! 2 Cor 5:17

A sacrament is an oath! A sacred promise from God! Ez 36:25-27
Acts 2:38-39 (this promise)

No baptism no grace!

A sacrament is an outward sign for all men including infants And a gift from God to help us see what he does inwardly and invisibly by his grace!

As grace Washes our souls in the merits of Jesus blood from original and personal sin, so the outward action of washing is visible!

without the outward action the inward action cannot take place!

Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5 water and washing
acts 22:16 wash away your sin!

Jn 3:5 Born again BY water and the spirit! Not by “faith alone”!

They did not go to Jerusalem and preach “accept Christ as you’re personal Lord and savior “

They went to the river (water) and they baptized! Jn 3:22

A covenant requires an outward sign of the inward action of grace!

Ez 36:25 I will sprinkle you with clean water and you shall be made white as snow.

Acts 22:16 washing away your sins.

Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 pet 3:21 baptism saves you.

You cannot enter on you’re own or by faith alone!

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,


Baptism!

God breathed life into Adam, gen 2:7 and we received this life from our fathers!

Christ breathed on the apostles our spiritual fathers, we receive the new covenant life of God’s grace from them thru faith & baptism! Jn 20:21-23 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38 eph 2

Born again! Born from above!

'The Father has set his seal' on Christ (John 6:27) and also seals us in him (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:23, 4:30). Because this seal indicates the indelible effect of the anointing with the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Baptism,

Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life." 87 The faithful Christian who I has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith," 88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13

Sealed by God eph 1:13 sealed by God (ez 36:25-27) in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)

Sealed in the ark, sealed in the church the ark of salvation by God thru baptism!



Christ instituted the holy church for the salvation of all men, (repent and believe the gospel, with the institution of the sacraments to convey grace to sanctify souls!


Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!

“Faith alone” accomplishes nothing!
1 cor 13:2 even all faith (alone) without charity avails NOTHING!!!

Faith and baptism!

Scripture says none of the things about “Faith alone”!

2 Peter 1:11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

The Christian sacrament of baptism is the Initiation into the new covenant and must be ministered to you by the apostles!




“Faith alone” Questions

where does scripture says we have died with Christ by “faith alone”?

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

where does scripture say we are members of Christ and his church by “faith alone”?

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

where does scripture says we put on Christ by “faith alone”?

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Where does scripture say our sins are washed away by “faith alone”?

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

where does scripture say we are saved or justified by “faith alone”?

1 pet 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!

The only reference in scripture to “faith alone” is James 2:24 NOT BY “FAITH ALONE”?

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

How can you enter by your own if it must be ministered to you? Baptism is done unto you, “not do it yourself by faith alone”

Jn 3:5 born again by faith alone?

Where is “Accept Christ as your personal lord & savior” is found in scripture?

They did not go preaching this line but went immediately to the river and baptized Jn 3:22

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

1. Romans 8:17
   And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that wemay be also glorified together.
2. 2 Timothy 2:12
   If we suffer, we shall also reign withhim: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Not faith alone

Eph 4:5 one baptism not faith alone

Why don’t it say one teeny tiny little act of “faith alone”???

When we first believed we are saved?

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

How can salvation be nearer than when we first believed if you’re saved by believing?

1 pet 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.

How can salvation happen when we first believed if it’s the end?

If salvation is by “faith alone” then faith would be the greatest!
1 cor 13:13 charity is the greatest!

Even all faith much less “faith alone” without charity avails nothing!
1 cor 13:2

“Faith alone” unbiblical!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You are still avoiding Jesus words "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16)
and Peter's words "Baptism,......, now saves you", (1Pet 3:21)

I've addressed it but you're not listening.

Baptism does not MAKE you righteous. Only God's forgiveness MAKES you righteous. Rituals and good deeds do not MAKE you righteous. You do not become righteous by being water baptized. No more than being circumcised caused you to become righteous. Rituals have zero power to do that. Only God's forgiveness does that.

Obedience saves us in the sense that it will be used by God at the resurrection as the evidence of your love for and faith in God (Matthew 25:31-46). To say that rituals and good deeds MAKE us righteous is to contradict Paul's teaching that righteousness is given through faith in God's forgiveness apart from works (Romans 4:5-6).

Anyone who performs rituals and does good deeds because they think it makes them righteous is serving the works gospel Paul condemns in scripture as a gospel that can not save. It is the gospel of self-righteousness.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

“Faith alone” unbiblical!

No it's not. That is found in James 2:24.

Your problem is you are confusing James' "faith alone" argument in James 2:24 with Paul's "apart from works" argument in Romans 4:6, which is a completely different argument. You won't even address this mistake you're making even though I've brought it up a few times now.

 

[Mungo]

I've addressed it but you're not listening.

Baptism does not MAKE you righteous. Only God's forgiveness MAKES you righteous. Rituals and good deeds do not MAKE you righteous. You do not become righteous by being water baptized. No more than being circumcised caused you to become righteous. Rituals have zero power to do that. Only God's forgiveness does that.

Obedience saves us in the sense that it will be used by God at the resurrection as the evidence of your love for and faith in God (Matthew 25:31-46). To say that rituals and good deeds MAKE us righteous is to contradict Paul's teaching that righteousness is given through faith in God's forgiveness apart from works (Romans 4:5-6).

Anyone who performs rituals and does good deeds because they think it makes them righteous is serving the works gospel Paul condemns in scripture as a gospel that can not save. It is the gospel of self-righteousness.

I haven't claimed that baptism itself makes us righteous. That is a straw man you have invented.
I said:

It's not the water baptism itself that saves us. God saves us, but he does it in water baptism.
"He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16)
"Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you,..." (1Pet 3:21)

Now please address those two scriptures and explain why you don't bel;ieve them to be true.

 

[Randy]

Yes necessary for the new covenant!


*this promise acts 2:38-39 is a sacred oath from God ez 36:25-27 and a sacred oath is a sacrament!

Initiation!!!


Faith & Baptism is the initiation of the new and eternal covenant!

You cannot enter on you’re own or by “faith alone”!

You cannot receive Christ or grace by “faith alone”!

“Accept Christ as you’re personal lord and savior” is fundamentalist tradition not found scripture!

Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Baptismal regeneration a new creation in Christ! 2 Cor 5:17

A sacrament is an oath! A sacred promise from God! Ez 36:25-27
Acts 2:38-39 (this promise)

No baptism no grace!

A sacrament is an outward sign for all men including infants And a gift from God to help us see what he does inwardly and invisibly by his grace!

As grace Washes our souls in the merits of Jesus blood from original and personal sin, so the outward action of washing is visible!

without the outward action the inward action cannot take place!

Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5 water and washing
acts 22:16 wash away your sin!

Jn 3:5 Born again BY water and the spirit! Not by “faith alone”!

They did not go to Jerusalem and preach “accept Christ as you’re personal Lord and savior “

They went to the river (water) and they baptized! Jn 3:22

A covenant requires an outward sign of the inward action of grace!

Ez 36:25 I will sprinkle you with clean water and you shall be made white as snow.

Acts 22:16 washing away your sins.

Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 pet 3:21 baptism saves you.

You cannot enter on you’re own or by faith alone!

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,


Baptism!

God breathed life into Adam, gen 2:7 and we received this life from our fathers!

Christ breathed on the apostles our spiritual fathers, we receive the new covenant life of God’s grace from them thru faith & baptism! Jn 20:21-23 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38 eph 2

Born again! Born from above!

'The Father has set his seal' on Christ (John 6:27) and also seals us in him (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:23, 4:30). Because this seal indicates the indelible effect of the anointing with the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Baptism,

Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life." 87 The faithful Christian who I has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith," 88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13

Sealed by God eph 1:13 sealed by God (ez 36:25-27) in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)

Sealed in the ark, sealed in the church the ark of salvation by God thru baptism!



Christ instituted the holy church for the salvation of all men, (repent and believe the gospel, with the institution of the sacraments to convey grace to sanctify souls!


Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!

“Faith alone” accomplishes nothing!
1 cor 13:2 even all faith (alone) without charity avails NOTHING!!!

Faith and baptism!

Scripture says none of the things about “Faith alone”!

2 Peter 1:11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

The Christian sacrament of baptism is the Initiation into the new covenant and must be ministered to you by the apostles!




“Faith alone” Questions

where does scripture says we have died with Christ by “faith alone”?

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

where does scripture say we are members of Christ and his church by “faith alone”?

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

where does scripture says we put on Christ by “faith alone”?

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Where does scripture say our sins are washed away by “faith alone”?

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

where does scripture say we are saved or justified by “faith alone”?

1 pet 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!

The only reference in scripture to “faith alone” is James 2:24 NOT BY “FAITH ALONE”?

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

How can you enter by your own if it must be ministered to you? Baptism is done unto you, “not do it yourself by faith alone”

Jn 3:5 born again by faith alone?

Where is “Accept Christ as your personal lord & savior” is found in scripture?

They did not go preaching this line but went immediately to the river and baptized Jn 3:22

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

1. Romans 8:17
   And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that wemay be also glorified together.
2. 2 Timothy 2:12
   If we suffer, we shall also reign withhim: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Not faith alone

Eph 4:5 one baptism not faith alone

Why don’t it say one teeny tiny little act of “faith alone”???

When we first believed we are saved?

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

How can salvation be nearer than when we first believed if you’re saved by believing?

1 pet 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.

How can salvation happen when we first believed if it’s the end?

If salvation is by “faith alone” then faith would be the greatest!
1 cor 13:13 charity is the greatest!

Even all faith much less “faith alone” without charity avails nothing!
1 cor 13:2

“Faith alone” unbiblical!

I do believe Jesus. He baptizes with the Holy Spirit not water.

I don't put my faith in water baptism which is a pledge towards God and my faith is in Christ, I don't remember pledging anything as a infant. I do know later when I received the gift of God after I asked the one I believe in who stated the Father gives good gifts to those who ask Him. (Christ in us)

and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ


I guess you believe one who believes in Christ and confesses such faith with their mouth and seeks Him through prayer won't be saved unless they receive water baptism? I don't

But I believe Him and it was Him that I asked with great zeal quoting His own words to Him. As in you said ask so I am asking. It was shortly following those days that I finally felt the inward presence of the Spirit in me.

Do you believe Jesus?
If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”


I am NOT against "water" baptism but Christ Jesus can be received through faith and prayer which most people do and then at a later date get baptized.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Now please address those two scriptures and explain why you don't bel;ieve them to be true.

I have been addressing them! They are true for what they actually mean, not what you say they mean.

Obedience is the SIGN that the faith that justifies all by itself apart from works is present in a person, and so it is for that reason that a person can not be saved when Jesus comes back unless they have been obedient to his commands. Disobedience is the sign of unbelief. Obedience is the sign of belief.

Water baptism is just the first of many required obediences that signify that a person has received the righteousness of God by faith all by itself apart from works. That is the only reason water baptism and all the other commands of God are required to be saved. They signify that you believe and are saved.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I haven't claimed that baptism itself makes us righteous.

You say that a person won't be saved unless they are obedient.

I say that a person won't be obedient until they are saved.

Yours is the works gospel condemned in scripture.
Mine is the gospel of grace heralded in scripture.

 

[Mungo]

I have been addressing them! They are true for what they actually mean, not what you say they mean.

Obedience is the SIGN that the faith that justifies all by itself apart from works is present in a person, and so it is for that reason that a person can not be saved when Jesus comes back unless they have been obedient to his commands. Disobedience is the sign of unbelief. Obedience is the sign of belief.

Water baptism is just the first of many required obediences that signify that a person has received the righteousness of God by faith all by itself apart from works. That is the only reason water baptism and all the other commands of God are required to be saved. They signify that you believe and are saved.

You say that a person won't be saved unless they are obedient.

I say that a person won't be obedient until they are saved.

Yours is the works gospel condemned in scripture.
Mine is the gospel of grace heralded in scripture.

More claims without scripture.

Faith does not justify/save "all by itself".
Nowhere does scripture say that we are justified/saved by faith alone.

Only God justifies/saves us. It is his grace that actually saves us.
But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus. (Acts 15:11)
they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus (Rom 3:24)
even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) (Eph 2:5)

The issue is - WHEN does God give the grace of justification/salvation.

and Jesus tells us when God justifies/saves us.
"He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16)
Not faith alone.
Not baptism alone.
Faith + baptism.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

More claims without scripture.

Please stop lying.
I am posting scripture.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Faith does not justify/save "all by itself".
Nowhere does scripture say that we are justified/saved by faith alone.

Technically, you are correct. Paul's argument does not say "faith alone". It says "apart from works" (Romans 4:6). The distinction you have yet to acknowledge even though I keep bringing it up.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The issue is - WHEN does God give the grace of justification/salvation.

You say God gives it when you work.
The Bible says he gives it when you believe.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

and Jesus tells us when God justifies/saves us.
"He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16)
Not faith alone.
Not baptism alone.
Faith + baptism.

You fail to acknowledge the whole counsel of the word of God and instead choose to un-rightly divide this portion of scripture away from the whole Bible that, by itself, defends your theology. But here is the rest of the counsel of God's word that makes it impossible to make Mark 16:16 your go-to scripture for defense of your doctrine:

Romans 10:10
10For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved.

Luke 18:13-14
13But the tax collector stood at a distance, unwilling even to lift up his eyes to heaven. Instead, he beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner!’ 14I tell you, this man, rather than the Pharisee, went home justified.

 

[Mungo]

Technically, you are correct. Paul's argument does not say "faith alone". It says "apart from works" (Romans 4:6). The distinction you have yet to acknowledge even though I keep bringing it up.

If you read Rom 3 which precedes this you will see that by works Paul is referring to "works of the law" (vs 20 &28). Indeed in Rom 3:28 he says:
For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law. If he meant faith alone I think that woild have been a very good place to insert it.

And by "works of the law" Paul is referring to the Jewish Law.