Bible Study Is Water Baptism Necessary for Salvation?

[Mungo]

You say God gives it when you work.
The Bible says he gives it when you believe.

See my previous post that when Paul says works he is referring to works of the [Jewish] law.

BTW - in a general sense believing is a work.
work
n noun
1 activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a result.
Concise Oxford English Dictionary.

 

[Mungo]

You fail to acknowledge the whole counsel of the word of God and instead choose to un-rightly divide this portion of scripture away from the whole Bible that, by itself, defends your theology. But here is the rest of the counsel of God's word that makes it impossible to make Mark 16:16 your go-to scripture for defense of your doctrine:

Of course Mk 16:16 is a "go to" scripture. Jesus is very clear.
You are avoiding explaining why Jesus doesn't actually mean what he clearly says

Romans 10:10
10For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved.

I've already answered that one.

Paul is addressing those who have already been saved. He is not giving a plan of salvation for those who are not yet saved. He addresses those he is writing to in Rom 1 :7-8

To all God’s beloved in Rome, who are called to be saints:
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is proclaimed in all the world.
And again in Rom 6:17-18
But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.

Luke 18:13-14
13But the tax collector stood at a distance, unwilling even to lift up his eyes to heaven. Instead, he beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me a sinner!’ 14I tell you, this man, rather than the Pharisee, went home justified.

You have taken that totally out of context. Jesus is not attempting to give a plan of salvation. He is making a specific point about humility.
Moreover the tax collector is clearly a Jew and already in a covenant with God (they both went up to the Temple to pray - vs 10)
He is not a pagan seeking to be in a covenant with God.

 

[Mungo]

Please stop lying.
I am posting scripture.

I wasn't lying. In the post I was referring to (#33) you just posted your opinions - no scripture.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

See my previous post that when Paul says works he is referring to works of the [Jewish] law.

BTW - in a general sense believing is a work.
work
n noun
1 activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a result.
Concise Oxford English Dictionary.

Yes, it's the work of believing, if you want to call it that, vs. all other work. The forgiveness of sin is the ONLY thing that makes you a saved person. And that forgiveness is given to the person who believes in it, not to the person who works righteous rituals and deeds to get it as Catholics say. That's why salvation is by faith all by itself, not by doing righteous things. Forgiveness is the only thing that can make a person saved.

 

[donadams]

I've addressed it but you're not listening.

Baptism does not MAKE you righteous. Only God's forgiveness MAKES you righteous. Rituals and good deeds do not MAKE you righteous. You do not become righteous by being water baptized. No more than being circumcised caused you to become righteous. Rituals have zero power to do that. Only God's forgiveness does that.

Obedience saves us in the sense that it will be used by God at the resurrection as the evidence of your love for and faith in God (Matthew 25:31-46). To say that rituals and good deeds MAKE us righteous is to contradict Paul's teaching that righteousness is given through faith in God's forgiveness apart from works (Romans 4:5-6).

Anyone who performs rituals and does good deeds because they think it makes them righteous is serving the works gospel Paul condemns in scripture as a gospel that can not save. It is the gospel of self-righteousness.

Grace makes us righteous but there can be no grace outside of Christ his church and his sacraments
Acts 2:38/39 “this promise”
Ez 36:25 promise or sacred oath is a sacrament

 

[donadams]

No it's not. That is found in James 2:24.

Your problem is you are confusing James' "faith alone" argument in James 2:24 with Paul's "apart from works" argument in Romans 4:6, which is a completely different argument. You won't even address this mistake you're making even though I've brought it up a few times now.

Start over and explain Paul’s way please

 

[donadams]

I do believe Jesus. He baptizes with the Holy Spirit not water.

I don't put my faith in water baptism which is a pledge towards God and my faith is in Christ, I don't remember pledging anything as a infant. I do know later when I received the gift of God after I asked the one I believe in who stated the Father gives good gifts to those who ask Him. (Christ in us)

and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ


I guess you believe one who believes in Christ and confesses such faith with their mouth and seeks Him through prayer won't be saved unless they receive water baptism? I don't

But I believe Him and it was Him that I asked with great zeal quoting His own words to Him. As in you said ask so I am asking. It was shortly following those days that I finally felt the inward presence of the Spirit in me.

Do you believe Jesus?
If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”


I am NOT against "water" baptism but Christ Jesus can be received through faith and prayer which most people do and then at a later date get baptized.

Jn 3:5 born again by water and the spirit

Jn 3:22 immediately they went to river and baptized!!!

Our salvation:

Truth / doctrine Jn 14:6
Sacrifice / sacraments Jn 1:16-17 Jn 1:29
Christ is in His person is our salvation Lk 2:30

How can it be “faith alone” Christ is not only a doctrine or set of beliefs but He is our Passover sacrifice and He is our salvation, His person, Lk 2:30 I have seen my Salvation!
We must have union with Christ by faith and baptism.


“Faith alone” condemned by sacred scripture!

Matt 19:17 commandments
Matt 16:25 lose you’re life / rev 12:11
Matt 28:19 faith & baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptism
Jn 3:5 water & the spirit
acts 2:38-39 repentance & baptism
acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
acts 22:16 name of the Lord & baptism
rom 10:10 faith & confession
1 cor 13:2 faith & charity
1 cor 13:13 faith, hope, & charity
Phil 1:29 faith and suffering rom 8:17 2 Timothy 2:12
1 thes 1:3 faith, love, patience / 2 thes 1:4 / 1 Tim 6:11 /
James 2:24 faith & works
Heb 6:12 faith & patience / rev 13:10
Rev 2:19 works, charity, service, faith, patience
Rev 12:17 testimony of Jesus & commandments
Rev 14:12 commandments & patience

Rev 12:11 over cane by the blood of the Lamb not by “faith alone”

Three things are eternal! 1 cor 13:13

Faith:
Hope:
Charity:

1 cor 13:2 even all faith without charity (Deut 6:4) avails nothing!

Never “faith alone”!

 

[JackrabbitSlim]

I've noticed since joining CFs, some people on here aren't trying to have fellowship, but, instead, are here to instigate, argue, and show off what they (think) they know. It's best to avoid such people as there is no edification for the believer, and, glorification for Christ. You can tell who is genuine and who is antagonistic. 2 Peter and Jude both speak of such people and how to deal with such people.

 

[Mungo]

Yes, it's the work of believing, if you want to call it that, vs. all other work. The forgiveness of sin is the ONLY thing that makes you a saved person. And that forgiveness is given to the person who believes in it, not to the person who works righteous rituals and deeds to get it as Catholics say. That's why salvation is by faith all by itself, not by doing righteous things. Forgiveness is the only thing that can make a person saved.

You've done it again!
Just your opinions - no scripture.
Are you infallible and think your opinions trump scripture?

Jesus clearly said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16)
You still haven't explained why Jesus was wrong to say that.

If you don't do what Jesus says then you are disobedient, and disobedience is disbelief.
I'll give you the scriptures for that if you want them but you don't seem interested in scripture.

As for rituals, God commands them.
An example is the fiery serpents in the desert. (Num 21:6-9)
And the Lord said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.” So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live.
They needed to do two things:
1. Believe that looking at the bronze serpent would heal them. (believe)
2. Look at the bronze serpent. (obey)
Not believing alone.
It was when they believed and did the ritual that God acted.
Here is another one:
When the Israelites left Egypt and came to the red sea God told Moses to lift up his staff and when he did so God parted the sea. (Ex 14
Why? God could perfectly well part the sea without Moses doing anything. Similarly God could pass over the Israelites first born without the blood on the doorposts. He knew who they were. But God gives us a part to play in the salvation process. And so it has been through the history of salvation. God gave many rituals to Israelites. When the carried out the rituals God acted. God acted not because man made him do so, but because God had promised he would and he tied the promise to the ritual. It was not their work but Gods.

 

[Mungo]

Forgiveness is the only thing that can make a person saved.

We are forgiven in baptism.

Prophesied by Ezekial:
I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts. I will put my spirit within you…. (Ez 36:25-27)

This was foreshadowed in the Old Testament:
“Take the Levites from among the Israelites and cleanse them. Thus you shall do to them, to cleanse them: sprinkle the water of purification on them, have them shave their whole body with a razor and wash their clothes, and so cleanse themselves……The Levites purified themselves from sin and washed their clothes” (Number 8: 6-8 & 21).

After his speech at Pentecost, Peter said to those assembled: Repent and be baptised, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. (Acts 2:38)

You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. And even when you were dead (in) transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he brought you to life along with him, having forgiven us all our transgressions; (Col 2:11-13)

Ananias to Paul: Now, why delay? Get up and have yourself baptised and your sins washed away, calling upon his name. (Acts 22:16).

Washed away is apolouo. The only other time this appears in the Bible is 1Cor 6:11
but now you have had yourselves washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We are forgiven in baptism.

No, the blood of Christ is the agent through which you are forgiven, received by faith. The blood of Christ is applied to you when you believe in that blood to do what God sent it to do.

 

[Mungo]

No, the blood of Christ is the agent through which you are forgiven, received by faith. The blood of Christ is applied to you when you believe in that blood to do what God sent it to do.

I give you scripture.
You just give me your opinions.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We are forgiven in baptism.

No, the blood of Christ is the agent through which you are forgiven, received by faith. The blood of Christ is applied to you when you believe in that blood to do what God sent it to do.

I give you scripture.
You just give me your opinions.

Romans 3:22-25
22...this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no distinction, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

25God presented Him as the atoning sacrifice through faith in His blood

Romans 5:9
9Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood

See it now?

Forgiveness and justification come through faith in the blood of Christ, not through rituals and good deeds. The blood is the actual agent of forgiveness, not water baptism, nor any other righteous ritual or work. That is what "righteousness (through faith) apart from works" means (Romans 4:6). It is by believing in the blood of Christ all by itself that we receive the righteousness of God in the forgiveness of sin, apart from the performance of righteous rituals and works.

Although various rituals and works are indeed commanded by the Lord, they serve no purpose in accomplishing which only faith in the blood of Christ achieves. And so our faith is in the blood of Christ, not in religious ceremonies, rituals, and works. Ceremonies, rituals, and good works are but the outward expression of the faith through which all the justifying, saving, and forgiving is actually accomplished.

 

[electedbyHim]

I've noticed since joining CFs, some people on here aren't trying to have fellowship, but, instead, are here to instigate, argue, and show off what they (think) they know. It's best to avoid such people as there is no edification for the believer, and, glorification for Christ. You can tell who is genuine and who is antagonistic. 2 Peter and Jude both speak of such people and how to deal with such people.

I believe we all can be guilty of this. However, I do agree with you that there are many who want to instigate. I am all for defending the doctrines that I believe the Bible teaches. But I also understand that if someone else does not want to look at the many sides of a doctrine, then it is a waste of time and energy. Many claim they know, but from what they write they are clueless.

My intention is to never instigate or frustrate what someone else believes. My wife likes to remind me that my bluntness and sarcasm can be uncompassionate towards people in how I present a conversation. I understand there is a place for sarcasm. Just read some of Paul's words to the Corinthians,

I went off on a tangent.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[JackrabbitSlim]

I believe we all can be guilty of this. However, I do agree with you that there are many who want to instigate. I am all for defending the doctrines that I believe the Bible teaches. But I also understand that if someone else does not want to look at the many sides of a doctrine, then it is a waste of time and energy. Many claim they know, but from what they write they are clueless.

My intention is to never instigate or frustrate what someone else believes. My wife likes to remind me that my bluntness and sarcasm can be uncompassionate towards people in how I present a conversation. I understand there is a place for sarcasm. Just read some of Paul's words to the Corinthians,

I went off on a tangent.

Grace and peace to you.

Thanks for your input and steadfastness in remaining cordial. On a side note, I speak fluent sarcasm and appreciate such.

 

[electedbyHim]

Thanks for your input and steadfastness in remaining cordial. On a side note, I speak fluent sarcasm and appreciate such.

Now that's funny.

 

[JackrabbitSlim]

Now that's funny.

My third language is Pun(s).

 

[Mungo]

Romans 3:22-25
22...this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no distinction, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

25God presented Him as the atoning sacrifice through faith in His blood

Romans 5:9
9Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood

See it now?

Forgiveness and justification come through faith in the blood of Christ, not through rituals and good deeds. The blood is the actual agent of forgiveness, not water baptism, nor any other righteous ritual or work. That is what "righteousness (through faith) apart from works" means (Romans 4:6). It is by believing in the blood of Christ all by itself that we receive the righteousness of God in the forgiveness of sin, apart from the performance of righteous rituals and works.

Although various rituals and works are indeed commanded by the Lord, they serve no purpose in accomplishing which only faith in the blood of Christ achieves. And so our faith is in the blood of Christ, not in religious ceremonies, rituals, and works. Ceremonies, rituals, and good works are but the outward expression of the faith through which all the justifying, saving, and forgiving is actually accomplished.

That's not what the scriptures I posted say.
But then you ignored them.

 

[Randy]

That's not what the scriptures I posted say.
But then you ignored them.

If we asked can one who has gone to Christ by faith and prayer but has not been baptized in "water" be forgiven of their sins by Christ Jesus, (and they are looking at the one God lifted up), the answer is yes.

Jesus is not bound. He makes a righteous judgment by "His" righteousness. I am not sure why any would not want to be baptized though unless circumstances prevent it like the man on the cross next to Jesus who was forgiven by the Lord.

I also believe infants and the very young who die apart from baptism would be seen by the Lord as "blameless" and their spirits would live.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That's not what the scriptures I posted say.
But then you ignored them.

You're interpreting the scriptures you posted incorrectly. You are unrightly dividing them out from the rest of the context of scripture.

You don't get saved by being obedient to be water baptized, take communion, etc. You get saved by believing that the blood of Christ forgives your sin.