It’s not biblical!

[GodsGrace]

Something you said caught my attention...
"What the CC teaches that is in direct conflict with scripture"... Infallibility of the Pope, would be my guess.
Does not the Bible(OT+NT) teach that all mankind is sinful and the heart is wicked... So an infallible man would be in conflict. Or the inverse idea that the Pope is in some way a transcendent being(no longer a fallible man).
That is my sticking point with CC and I think it is shared by many.

The Pope is as fallible as any other human being.
If we cannot listen to any man because he is sinful...
that would include all pastors/teachers/priests, etc.
Why?
Because they actually run churches....
the Pope does no preaching except for a blessing on Sunday at 12 noon at the Vatican window in Rome.

I don't know where you got the idea that he's a transcendent being...

Transcendent
1.
beyond or above the range of normal or physical human experience.

I don't think the above describes the Pope.
He has made many mistakes when speaking to journalists, for example.
He has made mistakes in allowing some liturgy in the Vatican Graden, etc.

He is only to be considered infallibe, in the sense that he is in charge, when making a doctrinal statement
that regards the faith or a moral issue. He's supposed to keep and honor the doctrines of the CC, he takes an
oath in this regard.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Harlot (Rev. 17:1-18).
The great harlot (πόρνη pornē #4204) who sits on many waters. She has a seductive influence upon kings and inhabitants of the earth.
In the OT, Israel was warned against playing the harlot (Ex. 34:15-16), but they did so nonetheless (Num. 25:1; Jer. 2:20; Ezek. 16:15ff.; 23:3ff.).
Spiritual harlotry is defined as spiritual adultery against God. The Great Harlot & Mother of Harlots, then, is the religious system that has spawned the most widespread anti-God religious systems in the OT, NT, and modern times.
This Harlot is named: “Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots and of the Abominations of the Earth” (Rev. 17:5).
The golden cup of Nebuchadnezzar’s Babylon (Jer. 51:6) continues to be present in the mystery Babylon (Rev. 17:4).
Although the political influence of Babylon ceased with the Persian victory of Cyrus, the religious system of Babylon survived—escaping to Pergamos (Pergamum, Rev. 2:13) and ultimately Rome.
When Babel was founded (Gen. 10:10), the only Divine promise of redemption focused on the Seed of the Woman. False Satanic religions, then, were centered on mother goddesses and their baby sons.
Babel’s religion of mother goddess worship (Queen of Heaven) transcends nations & empires, and has endured through the centuries under many names.
The Queen of Heaven and her divine son were manifested under different names:
Ishtar & Tamuz to the ancient Babylonians.
Isis & Osiris to the Egyptians.
Aphrodite and Adonis to the Greeks.
Cybele & Attis in Asia Minor.
Ceres and Jupiter to pagan Rome.
The names of Mary and Jesus were taken when Christian labels were needed to give public legitimacy to their religion, from the Emperor Constantine onward.
The Queen of Heaven religion has made its home in the Roman Catholic Church since Bishop Damasus assumed the Babylonian title of Supreme Pontiff in 378AD.
* Clarence Larkin, Dispensational Truth, p.148. Another, more thorough treatment of the Roman church as the modern expression of Babylon is Alexander Hislop, The Two Babylons.
The Caesars held the supreme pontiff title since Julius Caesar became the high priest (pontifex) of the Etruscan Order (74BC), and became Pontifex Maximus (63BC). It is fascinating to note that Damasus took the title when the Roman emperor Gratian refused it for Christian reasons.

Yes. That sounds really unbiased and historical.
Also, you're required to post sources unless YOU wrote the above.

I guess it's all in WHO YOU LISTEN TO.
Which is my whole point.

And I think most of us know all that stuff...
in fact, maybe we shouldn't be paying attention to the bible at all,
it might just be one more religion of Babylon.
And there were many, just like the above states...
virgins, babies, sacrifice, messiah's, etc.

 

[donadams]

You did say church?
There are many heads.

Not biblical

Ephesians 5:23
For the husband is the head of thewife, even as Christ is the head ofthe church: and he is the saviour ofthe body.

Singular!
One church!
One head!
One savior!
Thanks

 

[dwb001]

The Pope is as fallible as any other human being.
If we cannot listen to any man because he is sinful...
that would include all pastors/teachers/priests, etc.
Why?
Because they actually run churches....
the Pope does no preaching except for a blessing on Sunday at 12 noon at the Vatican window in Rome.

I don't know where you got the idea that he's a transcendent being...

Transcendent
1.
beyond or above the range of normal or physical human experience.

I don't think the above describes the Pope.
He has made many mistakes when speaking to journalists, for example.
He has made mistakes in allowing some liturgy in the Vatican Graden, etc.

He is only to be considered infallibe, in the sense that he is in charge, when making a doctrinal statement
that regards the faith or a moral issue. He's supposed to keep and honor the doctrines of the CC, he takes an
oath in this regard.

Does the CC teach the infallibility of the Pope... When making certain decisions(not a preach at some Bible study group)? I don't know the names of the special CC meetings where doctrine issues are discussed.

Maybe you misunderstood the transcendental statement. It was to cover both sides of the argument, not to state my position... or anyone's position.

So in your last paragraph you say the Pope is considered infallible... So that would be in direct conflict with Scripture... Unless you don't consider the Pope as a man(sinful/fallible/human) when making doctrinal statements.

You did ask for an example of when the CC is in conflict with Scripture... and as an outsider... I consider this point the biggest issue between Catholic and Non.

 

[GodsGrace]

Not biblical

Ephesians 5:23
For the husband is the head of thewife, even as Christ is the head ofthe church: and he is the saviour ofthe body.

Singular!
One church!
One head!
One savior!
Thanks

LOL
I always have to get a laugh out of this.

There are DIFFERENT things called church!

There are many churches and heads of those churches.

Figure it out!

 

[GodsGrace]

Does the CC teach the infallibility of the Pope... When making certain decisions(not a preach at some Bible study group)? I don't know the names of the special CC meetings where doctrine issues are discussed.

Maybe you misunderstood the transcendental statement. It was to cover both sides of the argument, not to state my position... or anyone's position.

So in your last paragraph you say the Pope is considered infallible... So that would be in direct conflict with Scripture... Unless you don't consider the Pope as a man(sinful/fallible/human) when making doctrinal statements.

You did ask for an example of when the CC is in conflict with Scripture... and as an outsider... I consider this point the biggest issue between Catholic and Non.

The Pope does not work on his own.
There is the Magesterium he responds to.
It's made up of Bishops and Archbishops from all over the world.
There are a couple of 100 members, can't remember exactly.

Doctrinal issues only come up when there's some question at hand and to clarify what the chuch teaches regarding that subject. Then a formal statement is printed. This is not a normal day to day occorrence, as you can imagine.

I must leave.
It seems this infallibility think is difficult to understand.
I'll try again on my return.

 

[miamited]

Hi wondering

He is only to be considered infallibe, in the sense that he is in charge, when making a doctrinal statement
that regards the faith or a moral issue.

That's a real slippery slope you're on there. The Pope is 'only' to be considered 'infallible' 'in the sense that he is in charge. I'm not even sure that even makes any sense really. I mean sure the Pope is in charge of the Vatican and all things that the Catholic organization believes to be true about God. Please remember, as I've mentioned before, that this smacks of exactly what Jesus was dealing with in the leadership of Israel. "You must do what the leaders tell you to do, but do not do as they do."

And what does it mean that 'he is only considered infallible, in the sense that he is in charge'. You do know what infallible means, right? It has nothing to do with any kind of hierarchy of being in charge of something. Infallible means without error! I think you've found a way to deny the truth of this Catholic teaching, without having to agree that he is really above making error. infallible!!!!

Unfortunately, that's about the same process that unbelievers, and many christians, use to explain the creation. They invent ways of doing evil before their God.

God bless,
Ted

 

[dwb001]

The Pope does not work on his own.
There is the Magesterium he responds to.
It's made up of Bishops and Archbishops from all over the world.
There are a couple of 100 members, can't remember exactly.

Doctrinal issues only come up when there's some question at hand and to clarify what the chuch teaches regarding that subject. Then a formal statement is printed. This is not a normal day to day occorrence, as you can imagine.

I must leave.
It seems this infallibility think is difficult to understand.
I'll try again on my return.

So 100 fallible men consult with another fallible man to create infallible doctrine?
See this would be my issue with CC.
Is there a place that has a list of everyone of these infallible doctrines that I could check out?
If a single one were to disagree with Scripture in the smallest issue... then infallibility is out the window.
And that is where the differences would come to play.
Would you follow the Scripture or the Pope? If there was a disagreement between the two?
If you(or I) would follow the Pope, over Scripture, then we enter into the realm of a cult of personality.
That would be a good reason not to be Catholic. But I am sure there are many Bible believing Catholics... they may just not have faced this issue at this depth. Having someone on Earth that you can point to and say "I was just following orders" is very reassuring to many people.
We are all(to various degrees) uncomfortable of taking full responsibility for our own life choices. Scapegoats are a comfort to the soul.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi wondering

That's a real slippery slope you're on there. The Pope is 'only' to be considered 'infallible' 'in the sense that he is in charge. I'm not even sure that even makes any sense really. I mean sure the Pope is in charge of the Vatican and all things that the Catholic organization believes to be true about God. Please remember, as I've mentioned before, that this smacks of exactly what Jesus was dealing with in the leadership of Israel. "You must do what the leaders tell you to do, but do not do as they do."

And what does it mean that 'he is only considered infallible, in the sense that he is in charge'. You do know what infallible means, right? It has nothing to do with any kind of hierarchy of being in charge of something. Infallible means without error! I think you've found a way to deny the truth of this Catholic teaching, without having to agree that he is really above making error. infallible!!!!

Unfortunately, that's about the same process that unbelievers, and many christians, use to explain the creation. They invent ways of doing evil before their God.

God bless,
Ted

Did I say in charge of something?
In car, on cell,
Give me a post no?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I find many more problems with the Word of Faith movement and the Grace Only movement.

They are a problem. There's no doubt about that. But at least you can come to some proper understanding about them. But there is no way to properly understand, for example, Mary worship.

 

[miamited]

Hi wondering
Really?

Did I say in charge of something?

You literally wrote with your own keyboard this sentence according to the posts that are found in this thread:

in the sense that he is in charge, when making a doctrinal statement
that regards the faith or a moral issue.

I'm not sure that someone can say that someone is 'in charge of something' any clearer.

God bless,
Ted

 

[miamited]

Hi again wondering

I find many more problems with the Word of Faith movement and the Grace Only movement.

Sure, and I have a lot of problem with the teachings of the Mormon faith and some issues with how the JW's practice the faith. Unfortunately, the 'finding something or somebody worse than I am' method, doesn't obviate the problems with our own errors.

God bless.
Ted

 

[GodsGrace]

Does the CC teach the infallibility of the Pope... When making certain decisions(not a preach at some Bible study group)? I don't know the names of the special CC meetings where doctrine issues are discussed.

The CC is a big organization...it functions like a corporation.
The Pope is the CEO.
Decisions are made by those that are put in charge of different departments.
It's the job of the CEO to make sure the company runs smoothly and as it was meant to.

I mentioned preachers in my other post because, if you think of it, preachers have more of an effect on their congregation than the Pope has on the Catholic population of the world. They tend to respect him...for whatever reason they may have.

Doctrinal issues are not discussed the way you may think they are.
The doctrines of the CC are set,,,all the church has to do is maintain them.

Maybe you misunderstood the transcendental statement. It was to cover both sides of the argument, not to state my position... or anyone's position.

It's OK. I think I understood.
Just didn't want you to think he's some kind of special man.
He's said to be the Vicar of Christ on earth.
This would mean that he represents Jesus on earth.
Like all good pastors should - but they do fall short, don't they?

So in your last paragraph you say the Pope is considered infallible... So that would be in direct conflict with Scripture... Unless you don't consider the Pope as a man(sinful/fallible/human) when making doctrinal statements.

No. This is the part that's not easily understood.
The Pope is infallible ONLY when it comes to an AUTHORIZED statement from him, sometimes called a bull, which states something about a moral issue or a doctrine.
Not even a new doctrine, but it clarifies an old one in some way.

It could also state something new.
What comes to mind is Pope John Paul's Encyclical on the Family (it might have a different title, can't remember).
It has some very beautiful ideas in it BTW...if you were interested, it would be worth looking it up.
Pope Francis has had some too. All Popes put their thoughts down for historical purposes and for the edifying of the church.

You did ask for an example of when the CC is in conflict with Scripture... and as an outsider... I consider this point the biggest issue between Catholic and Non.

Thanks for the example.
I don't have a problem with much of theirs, except that I do not agree with some of the doctrine.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi wondering

That's a real slippery slope you're on there. The Pope is 'only' to be considered 'infallible' 'in the sense that he is in charge. I'm not even sure that even makes any sense really. I mean sure the Pope is in charge of the Vatican and all things that the Catholic organization believes to be true about God. Please remember, as I've mentioned before, that this smacks of exactly what Jesus was dealing with in the leadership of Israel. "You must do what the leaders tell you to do, but do not do as they do."

Hi Ted,
Did I say that the Pope is in charge? If so, I meant that he's in charge of the functioning of the CC. He doesn't sit around all day figuring out new teachings.

As to what Jesus taught regarding doing what the Pharisees said and to not do as they did,
well, I think we both know that this is true for any denomination.
It's because man is just not perfect.
The pastor in a church I was attending back in the 80's was stealing funds from the church.
We all know examples...I'm not getting into this.

And what does it mean that 'he is only considered infallible, in the sense that he is in charge'. You do know what infallible means, right? It has nothing to do with any kind of hierarchy of being in charge of something. Infallible means without error! I think you've found a way to deny the truth of this Catholic teaching, without having to agree that he is really above making error. infallible!!!!

The Pope is infallible ONLY in matters of MORAL ISSUES or DOCTRINE of the church.
ONLY moral issues and it has to be in a written encyclical - he's not a dictator. It has to be approved by the Magisterium.

For instance, he stated once on a plane trip that homosexual couples would not be judged by him.
This sounded like it was OK for the church.
BUT, he never could have put this idea down in writing because it goes against all church doctrine.

Unfortunately, that's about the same process that unbelievers, and many christians, use to explain the creation. They invent ways of doing evil before their God.

God bless,
Ted

I don't know what you mean by your last sentence.
I think the CC is one of the strongest denominations to hold true to biblical moral issues.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How did you learn what Catholics actually believe?
Why do you think we can't exist together?

I learned from talking to people on line.

Catholic doctrine is so radical I see very little basis for Protestants to have anything in common with Catholics.

 

[GodsGrace]

So 100 fallible men consult with another fallible man to create infallible doctrine?
See this would be my issue with CC.

That should not be one of the issues.
Think of any other denomination.
Andy Stanley and Joel Osteen must be the biggest in the US.
They function like the CC.
Joel Osteen doesn't sit in his chair figuring out new doctrine.
He RUNS the church and makes the top executive decisions.
The CC already has all its teachings in place.
This seems easy enough to understand.

The CC has theologians that do all the theological work...
Just like every denomination has.

Is there a place that has a list of everyone of these infallible doctrines that I could check out?

You could find this out on google.


The Magisterium

If a single one were to disagree with Scripture in the smallest issue... then infallibility is out the window.
And that is where the differences would come to play.
Would you follow the Scripture or the Pope? If there was a disagreement between the two?

I'm not Catholic.
But they follow scripture too.
They just understand some scripture to mean something different...
just like we all do.

I can't think of a doctrine that would actually harm a believer,
instead I could think of doctrine of other denominations that are actually harmful.

If you(or I) would follow the Pope, over Scripture, then we enter into the realm of a cult of personality.

Agreed.

That would be a good reason not to be Catholic. But I am sure there are many Bible believing Catholics... they may just not have faced this issue at this depth. Having someone on Earth that you can point to and say "I was just following orders" is very reassuring to many people.
We are all(to various degrees) uncomfortable of taking full responsibility for our own life choices. Scapegoats are a comfort to the soul.

Interesting point.
I don't know anyone that FOLLOWS the Pope...
Some like him more, some less - but they don't follow him like in a cultish sect.
Some do, but there are always some that don't understand.

Catholics that are born again understand that they are responsible for their souls, just like we do.
OTOH, God will judge according to the light we have received.

 

[GodsGrace]

They are a problem. There's no doubt about that. But at least you can come to some proper understanding about them. But there is no way to properly understand, for example, Mary worship.

No Jethro.
The Word of Faith are much more distant to the bible teachings than the CC is.
I'd pick the CC any day of the week !

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi wondering
Really?



You literally wrote with your own keyboard this sentence according to the posts that are found in this thread:


I'm not sure that someone can say that someone is 'in charge of something' any clearer.

God bless,
Ted

I meant INFALLIBLE of course.
My error.
We were speaking of infallibility.

But he IS in charge of the entire CC.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi again wondering

Sure, and I have a lot of problem with the teachings of the Mormon faith and some issues with how the JW's practice the faith. Unfortunately, the 'finding something or somebody worse than I am' method, doesn't obviate the problems with our own errors.

God bless.
Ted

I'm sorry Ted, but the CC CANNOT be compared to the mormons.
The JWs, I'd say, are closer to Christianity --- I don't know where the mormons belong.

I'm not doing the WORSE card....
What I fail to understand is why the CC is hated and not the Word of Faith movement FOR EXAMPLE...

 

[GodsGrace]

I learned from talking to people on line.

Catholic doctrine is so radical I see very little basis for Protestants to have anything in common with Catholics.

Yeah well, there are some Catholics here that make me cringe.
I hope you know that most Catholics don't even know their faith really well.
And you know how we love to argue and debate on these forums...
it's no place to learn about denominations!