It’s not biblical!

[GodsGrace]

I can't recall the details off hand. But he's making a round-a-bout reference to thorns in the eyes from Deuteronomy(?). And he makes a reference or two to his eyesight in his letters.

Yes, that's true about Deuteronomy.
Do you have the verse?

 

[GodsGrace]

Probably based on Gal 4:15..."Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me."

We will never know what the thorn was, so all comment on it is speculation.
We do know that Christ in Paul was strong enough to overcome it.
Thanks be to God.
That leaves us with the ability to know that whatever we may be suffering from can also be overcome.

Right.
I had mentioned Gal 4 15 a few posts back.
I agree that we just can't know.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You are taking his metaphor literally.

No, I do not believe that Paul is a literal abortion that lived, lol.

I do believe that his spiritual birth was him being ripped from the womb in an untimely, violent abortive kind of spiritual birth. Because that's what the Greek word means.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes, that's true about Deuteronomy.
Do you have the verse?

Actually, it's in Numbers 33:55 BSB

55But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land before you, those you allow to remain will become barbs in your eyes and thorns in your sides

I think I mistakenly had Deuteronomy 29:18 in mind.

 

[dwb001]

Actually, it's in Numbers 33:55 BSB

55But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land before you, those you allow to remain will become barbs in your eyes and thorns in your sides

I think I mistakenly had Deuteronomy 29:18 in mind.

So possibly according to the text you provided... might the "thorn in the flesh(side)" be a wife or family relation not of Jewish background? A brother-in-law always asking for a loan?
Num 33:55 refers to inhabitants not driven out... and therefore the thorn would be a person.
Just spit balling here.

 

[GodsGrace]

Actually, it's in Numbers 33:55 BSB

55But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land before you, those you allow to remain will become barbs in your eyes and thorns in your sides

I think I mistakenly had Deuteronomy 29:18 in mind.

Hmmm.
I'd say one has nothing to do with the other...

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So possibly according to the text you provided... might the "thorn in the flesh(side)" be a wife or family relation not of Jewish background? A brother-in-law always asking for a loan?
Num 33:55 refers to inhabitants not driven out... and therefore the thorn would be a person.
Just spit balling here.

And thus the suggestion that his thorn is persistent persecution.

 

[dwb001]

And thus the suggestion that his thorn is persistent persecution.

From his wife... yep.

 

[Hopeful]

No, I do not believe that Paul is a literal abortion that lived, lol.

I do believe that his spiritual birth was him being ripped from the womb in an untimely, violent abortive kind of spiritual birth. Because that's what the Greek word means.

Find some biblical reference for that.
What womb?
"Untimely" relevant to what?
Don't you mean "Because you chose one usage of the Greek word, and not the other" ?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Don't you mean "Because you chose one usage of the Greek word, and not the other" ?

What is it about 'untimely' and 'abortive' that you did not understand in my post?

I do believe that his spiritual birth was him being ripped from the womb in an untimely, violent abortive kind of spiritual birth.

Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. an abortion, abortive birth
2. an untimely birth

G1626 - ektrōma - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G1626 - ἔκτρωμα éktrōma, ek'-tro-mah; from a comparative of and τιτρώσκω titrṓskō (to wound); a miscarriage (abortion), i.e. (by analogy) untimely birth:—born out of due time.

www.blueletterbible.org

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"Untimely" relevant to what?

Relative to a 'normal' birth. (Thus the word 'abnormally' used by the NIV).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Find some biblical reference for that.
What womb?

Slaves come from the womb of Hagar who symbolizes the old covenant. Sons that are free come from the womb of Sarah who symbolizes the new covenant. Paul is a child born of the free woman born as the result of a promise. But abnormally so, being brought forth in birth in an untimely, violent manner, by force, like an abortion. And so he considered himself not worthy of being called an Apostle, even though he most certainly was one.

 

[JackrabbitSlim]

Why ignore "to wound?" Can't be "abortion" or, miscarriage due to him living beyond birth. It is more likely that it is "to wound."

 

[Hopeful]

Slaves come from the womb of Hagar who symbolizes the old covenant. Sons that are free come from the womb of Sarah who symbolizes the new covenant. Paul is a child born of the free woman born as the result of a promise. But abnormally so, being brought forth in birth in an untimely, violent manner, by force, like an abortion. And so he considered himself not worthy of being called an Apostle, even though he most certainly was one.

What is your proof of an abnormal birth?
Paul considered himself unworthy because he persecuted the church before his conversion. (1 Cor 15:9, Gal 1:13)
Paul used the metaphor "born out of due time" to illustrate that he had been late to the "with Jesus" club.

Ever heard of allegories?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What is your proof of an abnormal birth?

What is it about an abortion that you do not understand? That's not normal.

Ever heard of allegories?

Insulation fibers bother me a lot.

 

[Hopeful]

What is it about an abortion that you do not understand? That's not normal.

As abortion isn't spoken of in 1 Cor 15, or anywhere else in the NT, it is superfluous to even talk about Paul's use of the term to describe having been born at the wrong time.

Insulation fibers bother me a lot.

Especially when it is raining cats and dogs !

 

[Jethro Bodine]

As abortion isn't spoken of in 1 Cor 15, or anywhere else in the NT, it is superfluous to even talk about Paul's use of the term to describe having been born at the wrong time.

Let's try it again, lol:

G1626 - ektrōma - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G1626 - ἔκτρωμα éktrōma, ek'-tro-mah; from a comparative of and τιτρώσκω titrṓskō (to wound); a miscarriage (abortion), i.e. (by analogy) untimely birth:—born out of due time.

www.blueletterbible.org

 

[JackrabbitSlim]

Let's try it again, lol:

G1626 - ektrōma - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G1626 - ἔκτρωμα éktrōma, ek'-tro-mah; from a comparative of and τιτρώσκω titrṓskō (to wound); a miscarriage (abortion), i.e. (by analogy) untimely birth:—born out of due time.

www.blueletterbible.org

You are over looking "to wound" again. Isn't abortion and a miscarriage finale? Why are you so hung up on the idea of abortion in this verse? Did Paul not live beyond His birth? I'm just curious why you are so set on it meaning "abortion" and not "to wound?"

 

[JackrabbitSlim]

Let's try it again, lol:

G1626 - ektrōma - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G1626 - ἔκτρωμα éktrōma, ek'-tro-mah; from a comparative of and τιτρώσκω titrṓskō (to wound); a miscarriage (abortion), i.e. (by analogy) untimely birth:—born out of due time.

www.blueletterbible.org

ἔκτρωμα is a compound word, "ek" (out from) and "troma" (this is where we get the English word "trauma"). So, Paul experienced "trauma" "out from" the womb. It is dishonest to the totality of Scripture to take one word and gather a belief from it without grasping the root of the word. The root is often derived from another word. That word must be studied as well. This is called "word study." I would like to encourage you to take lessons in biblical languages, or, at the very least, learn how to do "word studies." Learning Hebrew and koine Greek will be a huge blessing to you if you allow it.

1537. ἐκ ĕk, ek; or
ἐξ ĕx, ex; a prim. prep. denoting origin (the point whence motion or action proceeds), from, out (of place, time or cause; lit. or fig.; direct or remote):—after, among, × are, at, betwixt (-yond), by (the means of), exceedingly, (+ abundantly above), for (-th), from (among, forth, up), + grudgingly, + heartily, × heavenly, × hereby, + very highly, in, … ly, (because, by reason) of, off (from). on, out among (from, of), over, since, × thenceforth, through, × unto, × vehemently, with (-out). Often used in composition, with the same general import; often of completion.

 

[donadams]

Does the CC teach the infallibility of the Pope... When making certain decisions(not a preach at some Bible study group)? I don't know the names of the special CC meetings where doctrine issues are discussed.

Maybe you misunderstood the transcendental statement. It was to cover both sides of the argument, not to state my position... or anyone's position.

So in your last paragraph you say the Pope is considered infallible... So that would be in direct conflict with Scripture... Unless you don't consider the Pope as a man(sinful/fallible/human) when making doctrinal statements.

You did ask for an example of when the CC is in conflict with Scripture... and as an outsider... I consider this point the biggest issue between Catholic and Non.

Christ and his church are one! Acts 9:4 Jn 15:5 eph 5:32 Matt 5:14 1 Tim 3:5
The church teaches what Christ revealed eph 4:5 Jude 1:3 Matt 28:19 acts 1:8 Jn 20:21-23
The teaching authority of Jesus Christ extends to Peter and the apostles and their successors
They are not impeccable
Like Moses Josuha and their successors in Matt 23 they are not impeccable but they are to be believed by the commandment of Christ.
Isa 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed.
To believe Isaiah is to believe God
To believe the apostles is to believe Christ Lk 10:16 Jn 13:20
Spiritual Fathers (apostles) have care for our souls!

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Jn 21:17 feed my sheep:

Heb 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they care for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

1 Tim 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you

1 John 2
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

That makes Paul and John spiritual fathers, pastors of our souls!

Not impeccable but commanded to teach and sanctify all men Matt 28:19 and govern the church administer the kingdom till Christ returns
Infallibility only applies with full apostolic authority to the universal church on matters of faith & morals and is a rare occurrence thanks