James 2 And OSAS

[francisdesales]

"MY theory?" OSAS was around a lot longer than me. The foundational basis is thousands of years old.

Where? Who? Again, which Christian writer from the first millenium taught such a thing that is "so obvious" to you? Men who had memorized the Bible don't seem to agree with you...

 

[smaller]

"MY theory?" OSAS was around a lot longer than me. The foundational basis is thousands of years old.

Where? Who? Again, which Christian writer from the first millenium taught such a thing that is "so obvious" to you? Men who had memorized the Bible don't seem to agree with you...

The scripture sets for the position have long been in place FD.

s

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

"20...you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again." (Romans 11:20-23 NIV)


"...Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory." (Hebrews 3:6 NIV)


"12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end." (Hebrews 3:12-14 NIV)



"22...he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel." (Colossians 1:22-23 NIV)


"1 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NIV)


Why be careful to not lose a faith you can not lose? Simple question.

This all sounds like you are taking an OSAS stand.
Is that true or are you looking deeper?

 

[chessman]

"20...you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again." (Romans 11:20-23 NIV)


"...Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory." (Hebrews 3:6 NIV)


"12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,†so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end." (Hebrews 3:12-14 NIV)



"22...he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel." (Colossians 1:22-23 NIV)


"1 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NIV)


Why be careful to not lose a faith you can not lose? Simple question.

This all sounds like you are taking an OSAS stand.
Is that true or are you looking deeper?

I didn't notice the word "lose" in any of these Scriptures. It's interesting that @Jethro Bodine would come to a conclusion about losing one's salvation from five Scriptures that never once use the word "lose".

These five Scriptures sound just like something Paul would say. Just like:

Rom 5: Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.(Romans 5:9-10 ESV)
​

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"20...you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again." (Romans 11:20-23 NIV)


"...Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory." (Hebrews 3:6 NIV)


"12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end." (Hebrews 3:12-14 NIV)



"22...he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel." (Colossians 1:22-23 NIV)


"1 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NIV)


Why be careful to not lose a faith you can not lose? Simple question.

This all sounds like you are taking an OSAS stand.
Is that true or are you looking deeper?

I'm undecided.

I know about the faithful staying power of the Holy Spirit. And, I've never come to the cross roads of walking away from the faith for more than 30 seconds (not exaggerating). These two things on the OSAS side keep me undecided. But the scriptural evidence is far, far in favor of being able to lose the faith that secured our salvation for us in the first place...and that to lose that faith is to lose the salvation it secures.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"20...you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again." (Romans 11:20-23 NIV)


"...Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory." (Hebrews 3:6 NIV)


"12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end." (Hebrews 3:12-14 NIV)



"22...he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel." (Colossians 1:22-23 NIV)


"1 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NIV)


Why be careful to not lose a faith you can not lose? Simple question.

This all sounds like you are taking an OSAS stand.
Is that true or are you looking deeper?

I didn't notice the word "lose" in any of these Scriptures. It's interesting that @Jethro Bodine would come to a conclusion about losing one's salvation from five Scriptures that never once use the word "lose".

These five Scriptures sound just like something Paul would say. Just like:

Rom 5: Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.(Romans 5:9-10 ESV)
​

I don't see the connection between this verse you posted and the scriptures I posted.

Being raised Protestant, and getting saved Protestant I understand the blocks to be able to see what I'm showing the scriptures so plainly tell us.

Salvation is secured by the work of believing. Not by 'nothing'. These scriptures are saying if I stop believing, I lose the salvation that faith secures.

From here the question is, "is it really possible for someone who has genuinely believed to then stop believing?" I think these scriptures tell us, 'yes', that's possible. Why be warned to continue in a faith (and therefore the salvation that faith secures) that is impossible to not have once you have it?

Honest, simple questions.

 

[gr8grace]

"20...you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again." (Romans 11:20-23 NIV)


"...Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory." (Hebrews 3:6 NIV)


"12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end." (Hebrews 3:12-14 NIV)



"22...he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel." (Colossians 1:22-23 NIV)


"1 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NIV)


Why be careful to not lose a faith you can not lose? Simple question.

This all sounds like you are taking an OSAS stand.
Is that true or are you looking deeper?

I didn't notice the word "lose" in any of these Scriptures. It's interesting that @Jethro Bodine would come to a conclusion about losing one's salvation from five Scriptures that never once use the word "lose".

These five Scriptures sound just like something Paul would say. Just like:

Rom 5: Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.(Romans 5:9-10 ESV)
​

yep. And in Romans 5:9-10 Paul uses "a fortiori" logic.....A fortiori is a Latin phrase meaning “with stronger reason.” It is a system of logic using comparison. It is a conclusion compared with some other conclusion or recognized fact, as inferred to be even more certain or inescapable than the two conclusions it combines.

A fortiori is the way to apply doctrine in reverse concentration.
The A Fortiori of Reconciliation, Rom 5:10. “For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by means of the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be delivered by His life.”
If we were reconciled to God as His enemies, it follows, a fortiori, that we will be delivered as sons by His life.
In other words, if greater benefit has been given (reconciliation), the less (deliverance by His life) will not be withheld.
If God can do the greater, it follows, a fortiori, that God can accomplish the less. Greater or less is not a matter of quality but of effort required.

Simply put, Paul is saying ," Hey guys, God sent His Highest and best, His only Son to mankind while they hated and despised Him. How can you think that He will not deliver you from eternal fire once you have accepted His Son?"

If He gave us His Son(His Best) while we were ENEMIES to Him, How would he withhold salvation(the Lesser) from a believer that is acting foolish,reversionistic or spiritually immature?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Simply put, Paul is saying ," Hey guys, God sent His Highest and best, His only Son to mankind while they hated and despised Him. How can you think that He will not deliver you from eternal fire once you have accepted His Son?"

Right..."once you have accepted His Son".

The scriptures I posted say you must maintain that acceptance to the end in order to be saved. The scriptures plainly say you can't stop accepting the Son and expect to be saved in the end.

If He gave us His Son(His Best) while we were ENEMIES to Him, How would he withhold salvation(the Lesser) from a believer that is acting foolish,reversionistic or spiritually immature?

Since I'm coming at this from the Protestant perspective I can quickly see the failure of your thinking here. This ISN'T about acting foolishly or immature. But 'works salvation' is automatically heard by OSAS proponents when you try to explain to them how it is your faith that must continue to the end. James' argument is that faith is then ultimately seen in what it does, and that the faith that can't be seen in what it does is not the faith that saves.

This is about deciding NOT to trust in the blood of Christ anymore for the forgiveness of sins. The end of faith. How is it reasonable that I had to trust in the blood to receive salvation but I don't have to continue to trust in the blood to stay in that salvation? Especially since it's pretty clear the Bible tells me I have to persevere in that faith to the end to be saved.

 

[gr8grace]

Simply put, Paul is saying ," Hey guys, God sent His Highest and best, His only Son to mankind while they hated and despised Him. How can you think that He will not deliver you from eternal fire once you have accepted His Son?"

Right..."once you have accepted His Son".



The scriptures I posted say you must maintain that acceptance to the end in order to be saved. The scriptures plainly say you can't stop accepting the Son and expect to be saved in the end.

If He gave us His Son(His Best) while we were ENEMIES to Him, How would he withhold salvation(the Lesser) from a believer that is acting foolish,reversionistic or spiritually immature?

Since I'm coming at this from the Protestant perspective I can quickly see the failure of your thinking here. This ISN'T about acting foolishly or immature. But 'works salvation' is automatically heard by OSAS proponents when you try to explain to them how it is your faith must continue to the end.

This is about deciding NOT to trust in the blood of Christ anymore for the forgiveness of sins. And end of faith. How is it reasonable that I had to trust in the blood to receive salvation but I don't have to continue to trust in the blood to stay in that salvation?

Jethro,

IMHO it is very simple. Paul is saying even if you stop believing He will not withhold The lesser....HE WILL NOT WITHHOLD IT. There is nothing a creature can do to get out of their salvation. The creature would have to defeat God Himself to get "unsaved"

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

From here the question is, "is it really possible for someone who has genuinely believed to then stop believing?" I think these scriptures tell us, 'yes', that's possible. Why be warned to continue in a faith (and therefore the salvation that faith secures) that is impossible to not have once you have it?

I'm not sure how to answer this but think about this.

Do you think Paul ever doubted his salvation?
Do you think he ever thought for a second that he would not go to heaven?
He knew he was going to heaven from the day he got saved until the day he died.
He knew because he had the Holy Spirit within him.

I think people may doubt their own salvation, that is starting to look like the problem.

 

[gr8grace]

"20...you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again." (Romans 11:20-23 NIV)


"...Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory." (Hebrews 3:6 NIV)


"12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end." (Hebrews 3:12-14 NIV)



"22...he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel." (Colossians 1:22-23 NIV)


"1 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NIV)


Why be careful to not lose a faith you can not lose? Simple question.

This all sounds like you are taking an OSAS stand.
Is that true or are you looking deeper?

I didn't notice the word "lose" in any of these Scriptures. It's interesting that @Jethro Bodine would come to a conclusion about losing one's salvation from five Scriptures that never once use the word "lose".

These five Scriptures sound just like something Paul would say. Just like:

Rom 5: Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.(Romans 5:9-10 ESV)
​

I don't see the connection between this verse you posted and the scriptures I posted.

Being raised Protestant, and getting saved Protestant I understand the blocks to be able to see what I'm showing the scriptures so plainly tell us.

Salvation is secured by the work of believing. Not by 'nothing'. These scriptures are saying if I stop believing, I lose the salvation that faith secures.

From here the question is, "is it really possible for someone who has genuinely believed to then stop believing?" I think these scriptures tell us, 'yes', that's possible. Why be warned to continue in a faith (and therefore the salvation that faith secures) that is impossible to not have once you have it?

Honest, simple questions.

Jethro, this is what I get from my studies.

God is not willing that any should perish. He is God and I believe that He is going to more successful then not in that endeavor.

Salvation is one small aspect of "going to heaven" He wants us to reveal His Glory(Grace) to fallen creatures while on this earth. He WANTS to save us! And Has made that process as simple as a "clear thought" to get His creatures Saved.

The playing field to get saved is equal opportunity. EVERYTHING after that is go forward in His Plan for your Life, stay where you are or go backwards. It is up to the Creature to use their own volition to advance in their salvation.

I do not believe enough emphasis is placed on the tremendous blessing we can have in heaven and the tremendous blessings that come our way in this life if we follow God. He does NOT want us to lose those rewards or to never gain them.

Heaven is not equal there will be winner believers and loser believers in heaven.

All those warning verses that are geared towards believers, is God WANTING us to follow and succeed in His plan. And I do not think that we place enough stock in the rewards that we can have. And God WANTS to bless us with those rewards, but those rewards have stipulations attached to them.

I believe that we get stuck on salvation and never really stop to think what is at stake in our rewards after salvation. They must be very great if God warns us about it so many times after He saves us.

I am in a study right now on the Gazebo of God. And it infers that only winner believers will be able to enter this "party" the rest will be at the gates.

I do believe that rightly dividing His word and being led by the Spirit in His word leads to the greatest blessings that God has prepared for those that love Him.

 

[chessman]

Not unless he was schizophrenic. I'm unsure how Paul could say anymore clearly that he would never lose his salvation than the Rom 5 passage.

Ah yes, "once assured always assured" is a different question than "once saved always saved".

just like our salvation is best left to Christ, our assurance is also best left to Him (And his Word).

 

[chessman]

[
I don't see the connection between this verse you posted and the scriptures I posted.

Why be warned to continue in a faith (and therefore the salvation that faith secures) that is impossible to not have once you have it?

Honest, simple questions.

Yes they are honest and simple. Sorry if i was not clear enough earlier.

The connection is it's the same author.

Paul tells it (actually uses the word salvation)as clear as he can in Rom 5 and is not contradicting himself in Col and Cor (and Hebrews). There he never even says lose or salvation. You are assuming that is what the result of his warnings lead to. He never say that.

Warnings are for our good. I've been warned not to jump off a cliff. That doesn't mean i ever will actually jump.

 

[Butch5]

"20...you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again." (Romans 11:20-23 NIV)


"...Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory." (Hebrews 3:6 NIV)


"12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,†so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end." (Hebrews 3:12-14 NIV)



"22...he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel." (Colossians 1:22-23 NIV)


"1 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NIV)


Why be careful to not lose a faith you can not lose? Simple question.

This all sounds like you are taking an OSAS stand.
Is that true or are you looking deeper?

How so, all of the passages are contingent?

 

[Butch5]

"20...you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again." (Romans 11:20-23 NIV)


"...Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory." (Hebrews 3:6 NIV)


"12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,†so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end." (Hebrews 3:12-14 NIV)



"22...he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel." (Colossians 1:22-23 NIV)


"1 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NIV)


Why be careful to not lose a faith you can not lose? Simple question.

This all sounds like you are taking an OSAS stand.
Is that true or are you looking deeper?

I didn't notice the word "lose" in any of these Scriptures. It's interesting that @Jethro Bodine would come to a conclusion about losing one's salvation from five Scriptures that never once use the word "lose".

These five Scriptures sound just like something Paul would say. Just like:

Rom 5: Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.(Romans 5:9-10 ESV)
​

The conditional "if" indicates that the state may be lost if the conditions aren't met.

 

[Butch5]

"20...you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again." (Romans 11:20-23 NIV)


"...Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory." (Hebrews 3:6 NIV)


"12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,†so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end." (Hebrews 3:12-14 NIV)



"22...he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel." (Colossians 1:22-23 NIV)


"1 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NIV)


Why be careful to not lose a faith you can not lose? Simple question.

This all sounds like you are taking an OSAS stand.
Is that true or are you looking deeper?

I'm undecided.

I know about the faithful staying power of the Holy Spirit. And, I've never come to the cross roads of walking away from the faith for more than 30 seconds (not exaggerating). These two things on the OSAS side keep me undecided. But the scriptural evidence is far, far in favor of being able to lose the faith that secured our salvation for us in the first place...and that to lose that faith is to lose the salvation it secures.

Hi Jethro,

Paul pretty much ends the debate.

11 But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; 12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith. 13 And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not. 14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully. 15 For some are already turned aside after Satan. (1Ti 5:1 KJV)

 

[Butch5]

Simply put, Paul is saying ," Hey guys, God sent His Highest and best, His only Son to mankind while they hated and despised Him. How can you think that He will not deliver you from eternal fire once you have accepted His Son?"

Right..."once you have accepted His Son".



The scriptures I posted say you must maintain that acceptance to the end in order to be saved. The scriptures plainly say you can't stop accepting the Son and expect to be saved in the end.

If He gave us His Son(His Best) while we were ENEMIES to Him, How would he withhold salvation(the Lesser) from a believer that is acting foolish,reversionistic or spiritually immature?

Since I'm coming at this from the Protestant perspective I can quickly see the failure of your thinking here. This ISN'T about acting foolishly or immature. But 'works salvation' is automatically heard by OSAS proponents when you try to explain to them how it is your faith must continue to the end.

This is about deciding NOT to trust in the blood of Christ anymore for the forgiveness of sins. And end of faith. How is it reasonable that I had to trust in the blood to receive salvation but I don't have to continue to trust in the blood to stay in that salvation?

Jethro,

IMHO it is very simple. Paul is saying even if you stop believing He will not withhold The lesser....HE WILL NOT WITHHOLD IT. There is nothing a creature can do to get out of their salvation. The creature would have to defeat God Himself to get "unsaved"

.

That flies in the face of so many passages of Scripture. If that were the case don't you think you'd be able to find at least "One" verse of Scripture that says so?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Everything that does not come from faith is sin.
Blessed is the man that does not condemn himself by what he approves.

 

[gr8grace]

Right..."once you have accepted His Son".



The scriptures I posted say you must maintain that acceptance to the end in order to be saved. The scriptures plainly say you can't stop accepting the Son and expect to be saved in the end.





Since I'm coming at this from the Protestant perspective I can quickly see the failure of your thinking here. This ISN'T about acting foolishly or immature. But 'works salvation' is automatically heard by OSAS proponents when you try to explain to them how it is your faith must continue to the end.

This is about deciding NOT to trust in the blood of Christ anymore for the forgiveness of sins. And end of faith. How is it reasonable that I had to trust in the blood to receive salvation but I don't have to continue to trust in the blood to stay in that salvation?

Jethro,

IMHO it is very simple. Paul is saying even if you stop believing He will not withhold The lesser....HE WILL NOT WITHHOLD IT. There is nothing a creature can do to get out of their salvation. The creature would have to defeat God Himself to get "unsaved"

.

That flies in the face of so many passages of Scripture. If that were the case don't you think you'd be able to find at least "One" verse of Scripture that says so?

We are going over "one" of those verses.

Honestly Butch, I don't get how you have even the young widows that want to get married again and "set aside Christ" going to the Lake of fire in your theology.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Psalm 23 - "Surely goodness and love and kindness shall follow me all the days of my life. Ans I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever and ever and ever".
Sounds like OSAS to me.