James 2 And OSAS

[smaller]

If the person died while they were still living their sinful lifestyle, before they "came back", would they still go to Heaven? if not, I think you would have a hard time explaining how this person was "still saved at the time".

Common false assumption put in play above.

No person is sinless or living without sin or being a sinner, period.

The non-OSAS crowd often tries that phony gambit, as in 'what if they are caught in the middle of X sin and then die' when in fact NONE cease being a factual sinner regardless of 'what' they are doing.

s

 

[smaller]

Well, strange thing about the non-OSAS people. They never really believe that happens to them. Only to the other people.

This is absolutely untrue. EVERY ONE of the "non-OSAS people" believe it can happen to them. I have apostatized in the past and came back.

You can't possibly prove that Christ ever left you.

The Spirit of Christ abides in us by faith. There is no amount of guesswork that is going to say what is really going on within.

I MUST be vigilant so I will not fall again in the future. This is the clear teaching of Scripture.

Never said it wasn't, but that also has zero bearing on the matter. Falling in this present life doesn't automatically equate to eternal torture in fire. That part is only your unproven and unprovable assumption.

If you don't believe that other people who think as I do on this subject believe it can happen to them, smaller, simply ask the question here.

I have posted with countless believers for a long time. And exactly zero of them who promote what you do thought they were lost at the time the were pumping the position just as you don't right now, thinking you are saved now. But then again all such really can't say for sure they are saved anyway as it certainly can be lost at any given instant by their own frail hands. The security such have is wrapped up in themselves. SO I would not 'feel' too secure in that either and you shouldn't.

In fact I wouldn't feel secure whatsoever. Standing before God saying 'I KEPT MYSELF' Lord might not play well in Divine Court.

Salvation by vacillation.

There has to be at least 5 people here besides myself who are in my camp. Ask them if the possibility of losing salvation is ONLY for others, or if it's possible for them to lose their salvation also. Go ahead....ask.

Convince me that you were lost in a quantifiable method. I'll simply point to you that there is not one example of this happening to a named believer as a 'real scriptural example.'

In short, the position is contrived and non-existing in the text.

s

 

[smaller]

I am one if I didn't repent of being a bisexual.

No matter what sin you 'picked' we are still sinning sinners, period.

There is often a fairy tale notion amongst the non-OSAS crowd that we are able to make ourselves good enough and acceptable enough or sinless enough for God, ALL of which are fantasies.

s

 

[Slider]

There is often a fairy tale notion amongst the non-OSAS crowd that we are able to make ourselves good enough and acceptable enough or sinless enough for God, ALL of which are fantasies.

Amen! Right on!

 

[smaller]

There is often a fairy tale notion amongst the non-OSAS crowd that we are able to make ourselves good enough and acceptable enough or sinless enough for God, ALL of which are fantasies.

Amen! Right on!

A 'truthful' believer will take an almost exact opposite approach.

I KNOW for no uncertain fact that my own mind and heart is under constant assault, within and without by evil thoughts courtesy of the enemies of our souls, Satan and devils.

WHERE then are they? Hello!

The COMMAND of the Gospel to us is to NOT BECOME SLAVES of that very real working, NOT to save ourselves from God, but to DIVIDE from that internal evil and the evil ones that bring it.

The non-OSAS crowd have turned the entire message upside down and set up ridiculous standards that are entirely nonsensical fantasies.

IF you lived a spotless life as a believer AND the tempter tempted you IN MIND and HEART, God is in fact not looking at JUST YOU ALONE is He?

Uh, no. There is you and there is THE TEMPTER. It is Gods Choice 'alone' which one to deal with and HOW.

We are all supposed to have a decent grip on our enemies internally lest THEY over run, control and eventually kill us.

It has nothing to do with God eternally killing or burning us alive forever as believers.

And if you believe, you WILL come under attack, period. And you should also know this, speak truthfully of this and RESIST.

One of the parties between your own two ears is scheduled for complete eradication in the LAKE OF FIRE. And it ain't you as Gods Child.

s

 

[gr8grace]

We know also by the testimony of God's Word. It says, "He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation ; but is passed from death unto life". (John 5:24). Consciousness, coupled with the testimony of God's Word, should be evidence sufficient to make every believer know that he is saved. There is nothing that silences the devil like being able to say unto him, "I am saved, and I know it".

This is from the the book "Saved and Certain" I think it's pretty convincing.

Hi Jeff,

That verse is true, however, one must understand it properly. In the Greek, John uses the present tense of believe. It literally reads, the one who "is believing" have everlasting life. if one "is believing" they can be sure. However, there is nothing in this statement that says one cannot choose to stop believing.

John 5:24 has nothing to do with getting saved, it is not a salvation verse. It is a point of doctrine that Jesus is teaching. He is teaching the Fathers PLAN to believers. The point He is making is eternal security. One can stop believing that He/she is not eternally secure. It still does not change the fact of the doctrine Jesus was teaching.....Eternally secure, that is the Fathers plan.

1 John 5:11-12~~11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

John 3:16~~"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

'Whoever believes' is in the present tense. However, "PAS HO PISTEUON" is not a simple present tense = "WHOEVER BELIEVES" IS A NOMINATIVE PRESENT PARTICIPLE = A NOUN WHICH ONLY REQUIRES AN INSTANT OF BELIEVING.

Simply put it is like this:

'Whoever pays his fine shall not perish in jail, but have freedom to go, with his life.' Does the present tense of 'Whoever pays' demand continuous - uninterrupted payment of the fine in order for an individual to "have freedom to go, with his life?"

 

[Jethro Bodine]

While an obedient faith, in accordance with 'love your neighbor as yourself' is able to save. But OSAS doesn't even consider this teaching.

I don't think you should say that.
Who's interpretation of "OSAS" are you using?

Who's, you ask? I don't know the number exactly, but it seems (correct me if I'm wrong) that a fundamental belief of OSAS is that an inactive faith CAN save. Even though out the other side of it's (OSAS) mouth it says that truly saved people are obedient. It's confusing. But to me, no matter how you look at it, it ultimately says we don't have to really take to heart what James is saying--that a faith that is not obedient can not save a person. Somehow the grace of God overcomes even that which James says can not save--a dead faith.

Simply put, I think that most people who say they believe in OSAS don't know how to debate it, they just receive it as true.

That is quite evident to me.

Therefore, it becomes personal between them and God.

Which I understand.

I know about the staying power of the Holy Spirit. That's a big reason I'm undecided about the issue. But just because I personally haven't come to the cross roads of my genuine saving faith and returning to the world doesn't mean that it's impossible to return to the world. But I think that's what many OSAS's have done. They assume it's impossible to return to the world because they simply have not had to face the temptation. For me, I'm seeing that scripture teaches that is possible.

Some people on this thread give the impression that unless they see a person's good works, then they are probably going to hell.

In all honesty, I'm not seeing that on the non-OSAS side...at least not in a specific way. But clearly they defend what James is saying that obedience is the signature of the faith that can save you.

James 2 - "Abraham believed God and God called it righteous". Abraham was justified because he believed God. How is that something that you can see?
Did anyone see Abraham offer his son to God other than God?

Abraham saw it. Which is probably the biggest lesson in it in that regard.

But it's also true that he serves as an example for us how genuine faith--the faith that justifies--can be seen in it's obedience to God.

So what is it that we are suppose to see?
I think it's if a person loves Jesus and the fruits of the Spirit are present in that person's life.
Let's not judge somebody else's servant .

But the Bible is clear about discerning the conduct and fruit of others for purposes of discerning false brethren. I honestly don't see the knee jerk response to that Biblical charge that some are seeing in the non-OSAS camp.

If he belongs to Jesus, then Jesus will make him stand.
And that's the bottom line.
If he belongs to Jesus, then Jesus will make him stand. Romans 14:4

That's how I see OSAS.

...If he wants to stand. Apparently, it is possible to not want to be in Christ anymore. The question is, "is it possible to change your mind and not want to stand and be in Christ anymore?" Just because I personally have not come to the crossroads of that decision does that mean it's not possible? Especially when the scriptures speak of the dangers of making that decision?

 

[gr8grace]

In the book he describes how if a true believer went astray from God for a while and was allowed to lose his salvation and died and went to hell, then that would be like Satan snatching a soul from him and having victory over God.
That's a pretty good way to explain how non-OSAS could not be possible to me at least.

No, that's a logical fallacy. It's a false dilemma. It suggests that there are only two options, either one is snatched from God's hand or not. It's a fallacy because there are more than two options, it is possible for one to choose to leave God's hand.

and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. “I and the Father are one.” (John 10:28-30)


The word “never” in John 10:28-30 is a double negative in the Greek and means never, no not ever. Now, that is eternal security. Remember, a double negative in the Greek is different than in the English and provides much more emphasis on the negative when used. This passage goes on to say that no one is able to take them out of the hands of either Jesus Christ or the Father. This means that both the Father and the Son hold our hands. This is a sure-fire and eternal grip as found in Psalms 37:23-24.

The steps of a man are established by the Lord; And He delights in his way. When he falls, he shall not be hurled headlong; Because the Lord is the One who holds his hand. (Psalms 37:23-24)

'No one is able', includes you and me.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm of the conviction, based on other scripture, that this 'showing' of one's faith through what we do is primarily for our own personal benefit.

"Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith."

This seems to be saying that it's possible to "show" our faith to others. Which "other Scripture" do you mean?

These other scriptures:

"5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.

10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." (2 Peter 1:5-11 NIV)



"7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case—the things that have to do with salvation. 10 God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11 We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, so that what you hope for may be fully realized. 12 We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised. (Hebrews 6:7-12 NIV)



"16 God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. 17 This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. 18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love." (1 John 4:16-18 NIV)



"17 If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person? 18 Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.

19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us..." (1 John 3:17-20 NIV)



These are admonitions directed to the individual believer to be taken to heart by the believer so that they personally can find assurance of the hope they profess in their own lives...and know for themselves if they really have that assurance. These particular verses are not given for us to hold up to others and assess their faith by, though there are passages for that, too. I put James' teaching in the same category as these personal admonitions to make sure we have the faith that can save. We recognize the presence of that faith--the faith that can save--by what it does. OSAS, even though it gives lip service to James, ultimately puts his teaching on the sidelines if necessary to validate saving faith. That's bothersome to me.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

..If he wants to stand. Apparently, it is possible to not want to be in Christ anymore. The question is, "is it possible to change your mind and not want to stand and be in Christ anymore?" Just because I personally have not come to the crossroads of that decision does that mean it's not possible? Especially when the scriptures speak of the dangers of making that decision?

I stand of faith that I am saved forever and I could never change my mind about that.
If you doubt that is possible, then I will never be able to give you satisfactory proof.

 

[jeff77]

I stand of faith that I am saved forever and I could never change my mind about that.
If you doubt that is possible, then I will never be able to give you satisfactory proof.

That's how I feel about. A question? Is turning from God and losing your salvation a sin? If so, what about the verse that says there is no un-forgivable sin?
I cannot even comprehend how I could lose my salvation, but maybe there are people that can. I just know from experience that when I took my "vacation" I didn't lose it.

 

[smaller]

Believers who think they can lose their salvation are not only right, they are guaranteed to lose it.

They were never the Savior to begin with.

s

 

[Jethro Bodine]

..If he wants to stand. Apparently, it is possible to not want to be in Christ anymore. The question is, "is it possible to change your mind and not want to stand and be in Christ anymore?" Just because I personally have not come to the crossroads of that decision does that mean it's not possible? Especially when the scriptures speak of the dangers of making that decision?

I stand of faith that I am saved forever and I could never change my mind about that.
If you doubt that is possible, then I will never be able to give you satisfactory proof.

I don't doubt the saved forever part. When you have salvation it is the surest thing in all the universe. What the Bible warns us of is the 'stand by faith' part. It says we have to continue to stand in our faith to know the surety of salvation. That suggests it's possible to not continue to stand in our faith. If not, then who is that warning directed to...people who don't even have that faith to begin with? That doesn't make sense.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Believers who think they can lose their salvation are not only right, they are guaranteed to lose it.

They were never the Savior to begin with.

s

Wait, I thought it was the non-OSAS that does the judging of salvation? You're confusing me.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Wait, I thought it was the non-OSAS that does the judging of salvation? You're confusing me.

LOL, so witty.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Is turning from God and losing your salvation a sin? If so, what about the verse that says there is no un-forgivable sin?

Turning from God IS the unforgivable sin. What provision of forgiveness has been made in heaven and earth for the sin of rejecting Christ?

I cannot even comprehend how I could lose my salvation, but maybe there are people that can. I just know from experience that when I took my "vacation" I didn't lose it.

Which was the point I was making to allen. Just because you can't relate to the experience does that mean it's not possible? Especially when the Bible suggests it is possible?

 

[jeff77]

Wait, I thought it was the non-OSAS that does the judging of salvation? You're confusing me.

I this is a rhetorical question. Am I wrong smaller?

 

[jeff77]

Which was the point I was making to allen. Just because you can't relate to the experience does that mean it's not possible? Especially when the Bible suggests it is possible?

Sorry I didn't see that you had already pointed that out. Was it in another post? If so, what verse suggest it's possible.

 

[jeff77]

I have a question about the disagreement of these doctrines in general, not just OSAS, but pretty much every doctrine that people disagree with on this forum and elsewhere.
It seems like what we are disagreeing has to do with translation/interpretation/ an context. If you ask yourself "Do I have the right translation/interpretation/context of every single one of the doctrines?" Would you say yes? and if not don't you think God will forgive you for that? I say YES.

 

[dadof10]

If the person died while they were still living their sinful lifestyle, before they "came back", would they still go to Heaven? if not, I think you would have a hard time explaining how this person was "still saved at the time".

Common false assumption put in play above.

No person is sinless or living without sin or being a sinner, period.

The non-OSAS crowd often tries that phony gambit, as in 'what if they are caught in the middle of X sin and then die' when in fact NONE cease being a factual sinner regardless of 'what' they are doing.

s

Jeff said the person was "taking a vacation from Christianity", by which I assume he meant LIVING a sinful lifestyle, not merely sinning, as we do almost every day. Allen gave the example of a homosexual person openly living his "lifestyle". I assume this is what Jeff meant, not necessarily living a gay lifestyle, but just living in sin, in rebellion to God and His commands.

So, if a person dies LIVING A SINFUL LIFESTYLE, (e.g. a gay lifestyle) will that person be saved without repenting?