James 2 And OSAS

[Rollo Tamasi]

So, if a person dies LIVING A SINFUL LIFESTYLE, (e.g. a gay lifestyle) will that person be saved without repenting?

Who can know the heart of a person but God?
He may repent on his death bed without anyone knowing it.
So, we can never know about the OSAS issue from this example.

 

[dadof10]

You can't possibly prove that Christ ever left you.

The Spirit of Christ abides in us by faith. There is no amount of guesswork that is going to say what is really going on within.

Never said it wasn't, but that also has zero bearing on the matter. Falling in this present life doesn't automatically equate to eternal torture in fire. That part is only your unproven and unprovable assumption.

If you don't believe that other people who think as I do on this subject believe it can happen to them, smaller, simply ask the question here.

I have posted with countless believers for a long time. And exactly zero of them who promote what you do thought they were lost at the time the were pumping the position just as you don't right now, thinking you are saved now. But then again all such really can't say for sure they are saved anyway as it certainly can be lost at any given instant by their own frail hands. The security such have is wrapped up in themselves. SO I would not 'feel' too secure in that either and you shouldn't.

In fact I wouldn't feel secure whatsoever. Standing before God saying 'I KEPT MYSELF' Lord might not play well in Divine Court.

Salvation by vacillation.

There has to be at least 5 people here besides myself who are in my camp. Ask them if the possibility of losing salvation is ONLY for others, or if it's possible for them to lose their salvation also. Go ahead....ask.

Convince me that you were lost in a quantifiable method. I'll simply point to you that there is not one example of this happening to a named believer as a 'real scriptural example.'

In short, the position is contrived and non-existing in the text.

s

Try and focus, Smaller. Your contention was "Well, strange thing about the non-OSAS people. They never really believe that happens to them. Only to the other people."

That is bunk. You can try and steer the focus away from your ridiculous comment if you want to, but THIS is what I was responding to. You don't know what you are talking about, evidenced by the FACT that you try to distract. I didn't comment on anything else you said, only this.

So, tell me which "non-OSAS people" believe losing salvation ONLY happens to others? Waiting for "named" people or an admission of ignorance....

 

[smaller]

Try and focus, Smaller. Your contention was "Well, strange thing about the non-OSAS people. They never really believe that happens to them. Only to the other people."

That is bunk. You can try and steer the focus away from your ridiculous comment

Made no such deferral.

I pointed out the most obvious gaffe that you have no way possible to prove that God in Christ ever left you.

Does that look like deferral to you OR is that me observing the frailty of your personal guesswork on the matter?

if you want to, but THIS is what I was responding to. You don't know what you are talking about, evidenced by the FACT that you try to distract. I didn't comment on anything else you said, only this.

So, tell me which "non-OSAS people" believe losing salvation ONLY happens to others? Waiting for "named" people or an admission of ignorance....

I observed that every single person promoting non-OSAS believes themselves 'saved' at the time they are making their claims.

What's yer beef on this?

s

 

[smaller]

Jeff said the person was "taking a vacation from Christianity", by which I assume he meant LIVING a sinful lifestyle,

There is no such thing as living a sinless life if you'd care to take an accurate view of the matters.

I think many a fine believer takes a break from Christian hypocrisy. Some do so permanently.

Many leave the 'religious packaged deals' for many reasons, mostly because they are not accurate, do not work and are not true. And then there is the plethora of manipulations to deal with by the various members themselves. Not to mention judgments by the score in all directions.

not merely sinning, as we do almost every day.

Yeah, well, obviously if we sin 'almost' everyday that implies there are some days you are supposedly sinless, which is, uh, well, let's just say inaccurate and leave it at that.

The christian notion that we 'lead a sinless life' is largely void of truth and character and is instead a life of hypocrisy and deception.

We may very well rule over sin, but we never rid ourselves of same nor do we make those kinds of false claims in order to justify our salvation.

Allen gave the example of a homosexual person openly living his "lifestyle". I assume this is what Jeff meant, not necessarily living a gay lifestyle, but just living in sin, in rebellion to God and His commands.

You think external repression of that particular malady ever makes the INTERNAL FACTUAL PROBLEM go away for those who are afflicted by it?

Probably not. They may have times of reprieve, but the tempter knows how to pull the strings at any particular weak moment for anyone's sins.

This notion of 'external riddance' merely moves the slaveship to that particular sin back a notch from actions to word or back another step into the internal realm, but make no mistake, IT'S ALL SIN regardless.

So, if a person dies LIVING A SINFUL LIFESTYLE, (e.g. a gay lifestyle) will that person be saved without repenting?

No person becomes sinless or lives a sinless lifestyle. They may be less the slave by dividing from that working in Gods Grace. But the enemies never cease their attacks.

Many simply blanket their attack zones with deceptions of it's not existing in their conversations with others and not much more than that.

s

 

[jasoncran]

I am one if I didn't repent of being a bisexual.

No matter what sin you 'picked' we are still sinning sinners, period.

There is often a fairy tale notion amongst the non-OSAS crowd that we are able to make ourselves good enough and acceptable enough or sinless enough for God, ALL of which are fantasies.

s

one chooses to sin, one has the power to choose it and do so knowingly. otherwise paul couldn't say let us not use our liberty to sin. we were set free from the power to sin at the cross. that means like adam we can turn back to it and choose its bondage. so if I hate and murder then was Christian for 50 years and lead a thousand to the cross and the spirit used me then means I wasn't saved?

 

[MarkT]

Believers who think they can lose their salvation are not only right, they are guaranteed to lose it.

They were never the Savior to begin with.

s

Jesus said, Matthew 24:22
And if those days had not been shortened, no human being would be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

What would you say then? If God does not shorten the days and no human being is saved, would you say they were never saved in the first place? These are stressful times. Yet according to your theory God would not need to shorten the days. Why would God need to shorten the days if OSAS is true?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Which was the point I was making to allen. Just because you can't relate to the experience does that mean it's not possible? Especially when the Bible suggests it is possible?

Sorry I didn't see that you had already pointed that out. Was it in another post?

In this post: http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=52120&p=808883&viewfull=1#post808883

If so, what verse suggest it's possible.

"20...you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again." (Romans 11:20-23 NIV)


"...Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory." (Hebrews 3:6 NIV)


"12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end." (Hebrews 3:12-14 NIV)



"22...he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel." (Colossians 1:22-23 NIV)


"1 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NIV)


It's very clear that salvation is conditional on continuing in the faith you started out with. And why not, that's how we got it in the first place--by our faith. James and others say we can know we are doing that (continuing in our faith and confidence in Christ--the faith that saves) by our obedience.

If it's not possible to continue in the faith we started out with, why does the Bible warn us to stand steadfast in a faith we can not lose?

 

[jasoncran]

Which was the point I was making to allen. Just because you can't relate to the experience does that mean it's not possible? Especially when the Bible suggests it is possible?

Sorry I didn't see that you had already pointed that out. Was it in another post?

In this post: http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=52120&p=808883&viewfull=1#post808883

If so, what verse suggest it's possible.

"20...you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again." (Romans 11:20-23 NIV)


"...Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory." (Hebrews 3:6 NIV)


"12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end." (Hebrews 3:12-14 NIV)



"22...he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel." (Colossians 1:22-23 NIV)


"1 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NIV)


It's very clear that salvation is conditional on continuing in the faith you started out with. And why not, that's how we got it in the first place--by our faith. James and others say we can know we are doing that (continuing in our faith and confidence in Christ--the faith that saves) by our obedience.

If it's not possible to continue in the faith we started out with, why does the Bible warn us to stand steadfast in a faith we can not lose?

shorting the osas programing. please cease the overload of biblical statements.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

In this post: http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=52120&p=808883&viewfull=1#post808883

If so, what verse suggest it's possible.

"20...you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again." (Romans 11:20-23 NIV)


"...Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory." (Hebrews 3:6 NIV)


"12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end." (Hebrews 3:12-14 NIV)



"22...he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel." (Colossians 1:22-23 NIV)


"1 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NIV)


It's very clear that salvation is conditional on continuing in the faith you started out with. And why not, that's how we got it in the first place--by our faith. James and others say we can know we are doing that (continuing in our faith and confidence in Christ--the faith that saves) by our obedience.

If it's not possible to continue in the faith we started out with, why does the Bible warn us to stand steadfast in a faith we can not lose?

shorting the osas programing. please cease the overload of biblical statements.

Maybe they can just reboot and the problem will go away.

 

[jasoncran]

lol. but it doesn't solve the problem. I was raised in a non-oasas, church then went to the osas side then rechecked the bible and back to the scriptural side

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I was raised in a non-oasas, church then went to the osas side then rechecked the bible and back to the scriptural side

Wow! It's amazing that any church would have the humility to do that.

 

[jasoncran]

several actually. one still does in my county and I knew they do. the other was in louisana and they were both pentacostal

 

[Butch5]

We know also by the testimony of God's Word. It says, "He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation ; but is passed from death unto life". (John 5:24). Consciousness, coupled with the testimony of God's Word, should be evidence sufficient to make every believer know that he is saved. There is nothing that silences the devil like being able to say unto him, "I am saved, and I know it".

This is from the the book "Saved and Certain" I think it's pretty convincing.

Hi Jeff,

That verse is true, however, one must understand it properly. In the Greek, John uses the present tense of believe. It literally reads, the one who "is believing" have everlasting life. if one "is believing" they can be sure. However, there is nothing in this statement that says one cannot choose to stop believing.

John 5:24 has nothing to do with getting saved, it is not a salvation verse. It is a point of doctrine that Jesus is teaching. He is teaching the Fathers PLAN to believers. The point He is making is eternal security. One can stop believing that He/she is not eternally secure. It still does not change the fact of the doctrine Jesus was teaching.....Eternally secure, that is the Fathers plan.

1 John 5:11-12~~11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

John 3:16~~"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

'Whoever believes' is in the present tense. However, "PAS HO PISTEUON" is not a simple present tense = "WHOEVER BELIEVES" IS A NOMINATIVE PRESENT PARTICIPLE = A NOUN WHICH ONLY REQUIRES AN INSTANT OF BELIEVING.

Simply put it is like this:

'Whoever pays his fine shall not perish in jail, but have freedom to go, with his life.' Does the present tense of 'Whoever pays' demand continuous - uninterrupted payment of the fine in order for an individual to "have freedom to go, with his life?"

Sorry John, I'll have to disagree here. I've not seen anything that indicates a point in time belief. Even Young's translates it, "is believing" not did believe.

 

[jeff77]

I have a question about the disagreement of these doctrines in general, not just OSAS, but pretty much every doctrine that people disagree with on this forum and elsewhere.
It seems like what we are disagreeing has to do with translation/interpretation/ an context. If you ask yourself "Do I have the right translation/interpretation/context of every single one of the doctrines?" Would you say yes? and if not don't you think God will forgive you for that? I say YES.

I know this question gets off topic a little bit. Is that why no one answered it? I still think it applies to OSAS. If yall would rather me make it it's own thread I could do it some other time.

 

[francisdesales]

If you mean we are going to heaven just because we were once upon a time baptized, you would have to point me to some Scriptures that state this, because I can cite from practically EVERY book of the NT that states that man's eternal fate is dependent upon God's judgment of man's behavior here on earth.

Regards

Ephesians 1:13-14 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Thanks, and I have already responded to this one verse. Continue reading to the end of the chapter.

Being sealed doesn't mean you cannot lose your status of righteousness with God. Those who revert to wicked ways will not receive the promise, for it is conditional that you remain in Christ.

In addition, I would presume that you have read OTHER parts of the Bible? You think this one verse trumps everything else, including what Jesus says???

 

[Guest]

If you mean we are going to heaven just because we were once upon a time baptized, you would have to point me to some Scriptures that state this, because I can cite from practically EVERY book of the NT that states that man's eternal fate is dependent upon God's judgment of man's behavior here on earth.

Regards

Ephesians 1:13-14 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Thanks, and I have already responded to this one verse. Continue reading to the end of the chapter.

Being sealed doesn't mean you cannot lose your status of righteousness with God. Those who revert to wicked ways will not receive the promise, for it is conditional that you remain in Christ.

In addition, I would presume that you have read OTHER parts of the Bible? You think this one verse trumps everything else, including what Jesus says???

and the beat goes on..

 

[Butch5]

I have a question about the disagreement of these doctrines in general, not just OSAS, but pretty much every doctrine that people disagree with on this forum and elsewhere.
It seems like what we are disagreeing has to do with translation/interpretation/ an context. If you ask yourself "Do I have the right translation/interpretation/context of every single one of the doctrines?" Would you say yes? and if not don't you think God will forgive you for that? I say YES.

I know this question gets off topic a little bit. Is that why no one answered it? I still think it applies to OSAS. If yall would rather me make it it's own thread I could do it some other time.

Hi Jeff,

Anyone can be wrong, that's why we study. However, one of the biggest problems in Christianity today is proof texting. Since chapter and verse numbers have been added to the Bible Christians have been taught to just go to a verse and pull it from it's context and attempt to use it to support a claim the passage is not making. Instead of getting a doctrine and looking for passages we believe support it, we need to just read the passages in their context and see what they say.

 

[smaller]

one chooses to sin,

Exactly zero people who have ever lived have ever chosen themselves sinless Jason. It has never happened other than with God Himself in flesh.

one has the power to choose it and do so knowingly.

Do what? The 'external act' of sin? That is the last stage of sin. The majority of sin is IN MIND and Heart. And that internal SIN is not of just the person as scripture very clearly shows, in Mark 4:15 for example.

otherwise paul couldn't say let us not use our liberty to sin.

Paul certainly didn't make any case for being sinless.

Not being a pawn of the tempter, the devil, doesn't mean we ever are free of those attacks internally. We may very well see such internal sin does not originate with us as us, but such sins are IN US regardless.

we were set free from the power to sin at the cross.

If you think the cross made anyone sinless I'd sure like to see it either in writing and in reality.

that means like adam we can turn back to it and choose its bondage.

One can certainly and more easily be led into deception that we don't have sin as well. And we can also be easily made liars by denying our sinning thoughts are sin. Not every game that pawns are funneled into are openly obvious. Jesus for example carried a particular disdain for religious hypocrisy.

so if I hate and murder then was Christian for 50 years and lead a thousand to the cross and the spirit used me then means I wasn't saved?

Stated a few times in this thread that blindness post salvation is not a matter of the blinded pawn only, and that there is a blinding captor party that is not the believer involved. It is pointless to not see our enemies in any form of sin or of blinding or of the falling of another believer.

There is also zero tangible proof or even any way to measure that God in Christ ever left said believers other than the non-OSAS crowds guesswork.

s

 

[smaller]

Believers who think they can lose their salvation are not only right, they are guaranteed to lose it.

They were never the Savior to begin with.

s

Jesus said, Matthew 24:22
And if those days had not been shortened, no human being would be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

What would you say then? If God does not shorten the days and no human being is saved, would you say they were never saved in the first place?

There is a common form of blindness in the non-OSAS pack that automatically equates believers being blinded or taken captive again by Satan to mean:

A. God in Christ left them

B. God in Christ will burn them alive forever or eternally kill them

Both are entirely presumptuous as is your guesswork above.

These are stressful times. Yet according to your theory

"MY theory?" OSAS was around a lot longer than me. The foundational basis is thousands of years old.

God would not need to shorten the days. Why would God need to shorten the days if OSAS is true?

See above. If a believer falls in this present life it does not equate to an automatic hell sentence even if they die in unbelief.

Even enemies of the Gospel are saved as it pertains to blinded Israel (SEE ROMANS 11:25-30). How much more a fallen faith warrior.

And let's face another fact about the so called 'fallen.' A LOT of them simply leave the churches because they can't stand the falsehoods being promoted, the divisions, the manipulations and the constant hypocrisy, etc etc..

Such are often only 'fallen' in the eyes of 'specific doctrinal sectarians.' Most denominationalists see other believers as fallen.

s

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"20...you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again." (Romans 11:20-23 NIV)


"...Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory." (Hebrews 3:6 NIV)


"12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end." (Hebrews 3:12-14 NIV)



"22...he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel." (Colossians 1:22-23 NIV)


"1 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NIV)


Why be careful to not lose a faith you can not lose? Simple question.