James 2 And OSAS

[Butch5]

If there being drawn away from Christ and cast of their faith is it not the faith in Christ that is being cast off?

As I said, everyone's "first faith" is toward sin. Not Christ. So it doesn't seem that's what Paul means here. All sin draws us away from Christ. Fornification is no different in that respect.

But I take no offense from the way you've made your point, nor do I mean any offense back to you. I see your point. I just don't share your belief that this text teaches what you're saying it does. That's all. but at least we both now know what and why each of us hold to our beliefs on this text.

Hi chessman,

I can't by that, first faith towards sin. First faith is in the context of waxing wanton against Christ.

 

[chessman]

I am very interested though how you see Paul teaching OSAS, please explain.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Romans 13:11 Besides this you know the time, that the hour has come for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed.

2 Corinthians 1:6 If we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation; and if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which you experience when you patiently endure the same sufferings that we suffer.

2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death.

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Ephesians 6:17 and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God,

Philippians 1:28 and not frightened in anything by your opponents. This is a clear sign to them of their destruction, but of your salvation, and that from God.

1 Thessalonians 5:8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

All Scriptures here are in the ESV

I believe all these passages (and more from Paul that I’ve not listed) are directly within the context of salvation discussion. And therefore, every other writing of Paul (like where he writes about widows falling back into sexual lusts) should first be understood based on his definition of salvation and its permanance from these.

 

[chessman]

I can't by that, first faith towards sin. First faith is in the context of waxing wanton against Christ.

9 Let a widow be enrolled if she is not less than sixty years of age, having been the wife of one husband, (….) For some have already strayed after Satan. [desired or had sex with another man] If any believing woman has relatives who are widows, let her care for them. Let the church not be burdened, so that it may care for those who are truly widows. (1 Timothy 5:9-16 ESV)
​

In my opinion, Paul can carry on a parenthetical phrase longer than anybody I’ve ever known.

But to me, “and so incur condemnation for having abandoned their former faith.” is quite clearly right in the middle of one very long parenthetical subject (how to treat young widows who have been faithful to their first husbands versus those that have not been faithful). And therefore, Paul clearly means by “former faith” or “first faith” their “first husband (or more directly their faithfulness to him).

But regardless. This text is simply not clear enough for the OSAS=no evidence to outweigh every other text that states Paul’s position on this issue (see post # 262).

But, I’m not even trying to convince you or anyone else. Just stating why (the Biblical evidence) for the position I hold.

 

[smaller]

Every last one of them except for 2, Joshua and Caleb, who were over the age of 20, the age considered to be sufficient for participation in battle, died in the desert and did not cross the JORDAN into the promised land WHY? Because of UNBELIEF. I find that to be rather entirely incredible, don't you?

Yes. But then again I thank God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) that we (post-ascension) Christians have been left with the Holy Spirit to convict us and comfort us, etc.

My POINT in that post was to show that (at least MOSES and more than likely everyone else) was in fact SAVED even though he (and all the others) died because of UNBELIEF.

Therefore the argument that a 'blinded' believer in 'unbelief' at the time of death does constitute an automatic eternal death sentence is FALSE and therefore that entire argument is specious.

I know there are examples of the Holy Spirit in the O.T., but not in the same way as we have today. So maybe, without the Holy Spirit, I’d be right there making a Golden Calf with them. I don’t know.

Again the math here would indicate that the only ones who DIDN'T out of all that came out of Egypt were Moses and Joshua as they were in the mount.

So ya, every last one of us would be calf dancing naked using a simple math and 'who's present' quotient.

Here’s another broadly based Scriptural and related defense of OSAS:

And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ (Matthew 7:23 ESV)
​

Can anybody guess what the Greek word here (οὐδέποτε) means? You guessed it, “never”.

Yes, that is a fan favorite of all the non-OSAS crowd.

Please allow me to pull back the scriptural components on this particular matter:

If we read Jesus speaking to PETER yet as a matter of FACT Jesus looked at Peter and spoke to WHOM in Peter? Uh, yeah. SATAN in PETER.

It is entirely absurd to see JUST PETER in that equation.

Could Jesus have looked PETER in the eye and told SATAN to 'depart from me, I never knew you?'

of COURSE!

Now, tell me if that could also happen with ANY BELIEVER? Uh, hello!

yes, we 'all' have sin and sin is of the devil.

To see 'ourselves' as 'just ourselves' is not a requirement of good christian theology.

I have hammered this point many times, but the fact of the resistance to the fact because of the fact is always palpable.

And there is no other optional or secondary meaning for this word. So “I never knew you” cannot mean “once knew you, then you left me” or “I forgot that I once knew you”. It plainly means, “I never knew you”.

Therefore, Once “I knew you”, always “I knew you” is plainly taught by Jesus.
Does “I knew you” then for all intensive purposes equal “saved” so that we could say Matt 7:23 teaches: “once saved always saved”? I personally feel that is exactly what Jesus meant. And how does this relate to Jude?

Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. (Jude 1:5 ESV)
​

So any idea that “although you once fully knew it” means you “once fully believed” or was “once fully saved” is anti-Jesus’ teaching in Matt 7:23.

Just a thought.

Please add my factual observations above to your 'excluded' possibilities.

No offense to you intended. It really is much more interesting than what 'believers' appear to be able to see.

s

 

[smaller]

I'm not sure how this makes your point. Who is saying anyone can be saved who disbelieves? Why didn't they enter the promised land?

Nearly every non-OSAS adherent tries vainly to make that case that believers who once believed and then died in unbelief are not saved, when we have direct specific written evidence to the contrary.

s

 

[Butch5]

I'm not sure how this makes your point. Who is saying anyone can be saved who disbelieves? Why didn't they enter the promised land?

Nearly every non-OSAS adherent tries vainly to make that case that believers who once believed and then died in unbelief are not saved, when we have direct specific written evidence to the contrary.

s

Where would we find that evidence?

 

[smaller]

I have a question for those who hold OSAS. Doesn't it concern you that there is not a single passage of Scripture that states one cannot lose salvation?

I'd suggest you have spent exactly zero time reading the proof sets (which are frequently posted at this site.)

If any of you non-OSAS people are saying flatout that there are ZERO scriptural proofs I can only consider that opinion both unlearned and without study or merit.

s

 

[smaller]

Where would we find that evidence?

A starting place to 'attempt' to perceive and respond is my post #241 in this thread which appears to be the one you are trying to respond to.

s

 

[farouk]

Since I'm on a roll today I'd like to share a view of the complete and utter failure of 'continuing belief' as a STANDARD for a believer being saved.

For this example I'm going to use (scripture of course) ALL the people of Israel who came out of Egypt, saw ALL the mighty works of God in Christ up front, close and personal.

If any persons, such as ALL OF THEM could be believers, they had nearly continually open active proof that God was REAL and ACTIVE in their behalves.

Who couldn't believe after all of that?

Yet what did REALITY show us?

Every last one of them except for 2, Joshua and Caleb, who were over the age of 20, the age considered to be sufficient for participation in battle, died in the desert and did not cross the JORDAN into the promised land WHY?

Because of UNBELIEF.

I find that to be rather entirely incredible, don't you?

???

Jude 1:5
I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Hebrews 4:6
Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

Hebrews 4:11
Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

In the aforementioned bunch of UNBELIEVERS we also have AARON, THE HIGH PRIEST and MOSES.

Is any serious believer going to say that Moses is not saved or in heaven?

Now, the math here would indicate that there may have been as many as 5 or 600 thousand people up to as many as 2 MILLION people who came out of Egypt in the Exodus.

And exactly 'how many' of them made it into the promised land?

Uh, yeah, 2.

Even after all they saw.

And your chances are what? What?

yeah

do the math.

s

We need to built especially on faith as seen in the New Testament before we try to built theories on why former 'believers' are supposed lost 'again'.

Romans 8 is a great antidote.

 

[Deborah13]

Psalm 23 - "Surely goodness and love and kindness shall follow me all the days of my life. Ans I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever and ever and ever". Sounds like OSAS to me.

Yes, and this from Ps 23

"He restoreth my soul."

"He leads me in the paths of righteousness, for His name sake."

Sin is the shadow of death...

"Yay, though, I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I will fear no evil, thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me."

I know I can trust my Lord to correct me with His rod of authority and keep me from running off cliffs, etc. with His Good Shepard's staff."

Oh and if I fall into a pit, He will rescue me.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

So, the question comes back, "Can a person be saved and willfully walk away from God and never come back"?
Absolutely not!
If he is really saved, it will never come to that point!

 

[jeff77]

Is there someone's life in the Bible that we could look at that is a good example of someone that had faith and obeyed but then changed? David comes to my mind. How could David go from having so much faith to then committing adultry and having his best friend killed? What happened to David in the end? Was he still saved?

 

[Butch5]

Is there someone's life in the Bible that we could look at that is a good example of someone that had faith and obeyed but then changed? David comes to my mind. How could David go from having so much faith to then committing adultry and having his best friend killed? What happened to David in the end? Was he still saved?

Jeff,

David never turned from the Lord. Solomon, however, did. We are not told what the final outcome is.

 

[Butch5]

I have a question for those who hold OSAS. Doesn't it concern you that there is not a single passage of Scripture that states one cannot lose salvation?

I'd suggest you have spent exactly zero time reading the proof sets (which are frequently posted at this site.)

If any of you non-OSAS people are saying flatout that there are ZERO scriptural proofs I can only consider that opinion both unlearned and without study or merit.

s

Then please show me one and prove me wrong.

 

[jasoncran]

And as a note, jason, I think Ezekiel, who came after David as you point out, was actually making a reference to the law of Moses if I remember correctly. I'll check it out.

the inference may be to the book that moses said to YHWH blot me out of thy book instead, when God was going to judge isreal for her sins. if that isn't possible then How could moses have asked that? surely it was orally passed to him. just because things are mentioned in the torah at first doesn't mean they didn't know.ie job isn't part of the torah and yet job mentions sheol. and whom by tradition penned job? moses.

 

[Butch5]

Where would we find that evidence?

A starting place to 'attempt' to perceive and respond is my post #241 in this thread which appears to be the one you are trying to respond to.

s

I've already addressed post 241. I said I don't see how that supports your case. There's nothing there that proves OSAS.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

1 Kings 2;

Davids' charge to Solomon shows that he was worshiping God right to the end.

 

[jasoncran]

Psalm 23 - "Surely goodness and love and kindness shall follow me all the days of my life. Ans I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever and ever and ever". Sounds like OSAS to me.

Yes, and this from Ps 23

"He restoreth my soul."

"He leads me in the paths of righteousness, for His name sake."

Sin is the shadow of death...

"Yay, though, I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I will fear no evil, thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me."

I know I can trust my Lord to correct me with His rod of authority and keep me from running off cliffs, etc. with His Good Shepard's staff."

Oh and if I fall into a pit, He will rescue me.

david just describe el-shaddai. interesting thing about Him but that is another topic.if you are going to use the psalms for doctrine then tell me why Ezekiel contradicts that? after when the tanach was around surely ole zeke would have been schooled on it. well of course the psalms wasn't compiled fully in his day. imho.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

david just describe el-shaddai. interesting thing about Him but that is another topic.if you are going to use the psalms for doctrine then tell me why Ezekiel contradicts that? after when the tanach was around surely ole zeke would have been schooled on it. well of course the psalms wasn't compiled fully in his day. imho.

Ezekiel 33:13;

"If I tell a righteous man that he will surely live, but then he trust in his righteousness and does evil, none of the righteous things he has done will be remembered; he will die for the evil he has done".

As you can see, this talks of self-righteousness.

Romans 4:5;

"However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness".

Again we see, it is not what we do that saves us, but it is faith.

 

[chessman]

Is there someone's life in the Bible that we could look at that is a good example of someone that had faith and obeyed but then changed? David comes to my mind. How could David go from having so much faith to then committing adultry and having his best friend killed? What happened to David in the end? Was he still saved?

Matt 1:1 The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

I realize this does not say, David is/was saved. But it sure does imply that he was.

And there's
20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

And

Mat 21:9

And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.


Rom 1:3
Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;


But it's a good question. Then there's Adam in which sinned, yet God covered his sin with animal skin.

God's sovereign knowledge of Adam's faith and David's is the key to this whole topic.