James 2 And OSAS

[jasoncran]

trust his in righteousness? and turns evil? Abraham believe then was circumcised. the children of isreal believe then were under the torah.

that is what meant by that.

Im quoting zeke 18, where it says god declares the man right. not that guy whom thinks he is right. there is a difference. even the jews then know that. they also knew of grace. if they didn't how could they have understand it when jesus spoke of it. and Noah found grace in eyes of god.

Ezekiel 18

King James Version (KJV)

18 The word of the Lord came unto me again, saying,
2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
3 As I live, saith the Lord God, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,
6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,
7 And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment;
8 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,
9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord God.
10 If he beget a son that is a robber, a shedder of blood, and that doeth the like to any one of these things,
11 And that doeth not any of those duties, but even hath eaten upon the mountains, and defiled his neighbour's wife,
12 Hath oppressed the poor and needy, hath spoiled by violence, hath not restored the pledge, and hath lifted up his eyes to the idols, hath committed abomination,
13 Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him.
14 Now, lo, if he beget a son, that seeth all his father's sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like,
15 That hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbour's wife,
16 Neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, but hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment,
17 That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live.
18 As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.
19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him

how is a man just in the eyes of God?

and in the tanach and in habbabuk it is said the just shall live by faith. the idea of faith isn't foreign to the ot saints but paul says they operated by faith in the book of Hebrews. how is that possible them if doesn't show they worked their righteousness but lived by faith?

 

[jasoncran]

When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

oh btw that is referring to when the righteous,turns and sins and says to the Lord at their judgement but my sins were worse then what I did right. God calls them righteous, how can these be sinners then if they are just first?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Young Earth Creationism Men Science jasoncran's Avatar Join Date May 2009 Posts 31,396 Christian Yes Gender Male Re: James 2 And OSAS trust his in righteousness? and turns evil? Abraham believe then was circumcised. the children of isreal believe then were under the torah. that is what meant by that.

You don't make sense.
Spell it out.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Im quoting zeke 18, where it says god declares the man right. not that guy whom thinks he is right. there is a difference. even the jews then know that. they also knew of grace. if they didn't how could they have understand it when jesus spoke of it. and Noah found grace in eyes of god.

From reading Ezekiel 18, it seems that he is speaking of this life and not eternal life.
It doesn't make sense any other way.

 

[francisdesales]

Any believer who says that obviously has spent either no time whatsoever with the huge amounts of scriptures for both determinism and OSAS or they have a 'sect' agenda that they either don't want to get over or can't get over for whatever reasons.

I see. Broad generalizations to begin... More comments on sectarianism, while avoiding the shortcomings of your own sect...

Determinism is not OSAS, first of all. Determinism is pagan fate, something that your sect is quite willing to put forward. Secondly, OSAS speaks of bypassing judgment. The Scriptures do not speak of bypassing or avoiding judgment. Even the Jews, who strongly believed in the concept of election, did NOT believe that they, as a group or individually, would avoid judgment - the wicked will be punished. Paul HIMSELF said he had not achieved it yet, and would still be judged by God Himself - but not men.

But this novel heresy unheard of for well over a thousand years is "foundational"???

Do you really want me to do your homework for you? Seriously?

You must be joking. My homework? I am supposed to show the ABSENCE of Church Father accounts of OSAS?

Sure, for my next trick, I'll prove the non-existence of unicorns...

Brainiac, you are the person who made the claim about the "foundation laid thousand year ago". Now, prove it. Where is this "foundation". Show me a Church Father that speaks about OSAS, eternal life guaranteed to a person no matter what they do in life. You think that after a thousand years, SOMEONE would "stumble" upon this foundation??? A Christian SOMEWHERE would note this after memorizing the Bible???

Please... Do your own homework or else admit your error. Then we'll talk.

 

[Deborah13]

david just describe el-shaddai. interesting thing about Him but that is another topic.if you are going to use the psalms for doctrine then tell me why Ezekiel contradicts that?

Do you suppose David wrote this Psalm before he committed pre-meditated adultery and murder? Of coarse I don't know. What I do know is the David was not put to death for these sins.
I think though that David would have felt very much "the shadow of death" as his baby son was dying and he knew that is was because of his sin. He cried out
asking God not to take His Spirit from him, if I remember correctly.
I see here that even though the Law called for him to die, he found grace with God because of his faith. God said David was a man after his own heart. So I see David as a believer who sinned willfully and badly but he did not reject God and God did not reject him. God loved David and knew that the creature that is man is weak and prone to sin but He saw David's heart.

Surely if God gave such grace under the time of the Law of Moses, He is faithful to us, even when we mess up and are not faithful to him. He's a good father and does not give up on us.

I think some who include works (obedience) for their salvation they are seeing sinning as rejecting God. So did David reject God when he sinned. Most will say no and they will say of coarse David was saved because he didn't reject God. Do you see how silly that sounds. It's like they are saying David could get away with that but you/I can't. But then we see the woman caught in adultery, Jesus didn't allow her to be stoned either and she didn't even know Him. So how does that answer to Ezekiel? I don't know. Do you? I suspect it's called grace and faith. Oh, but the woman didn't have faith did she? Did she learn faith in Jesus through His grace to her?

I think Psalm 23 was written by a mature David who had been through the wringer and realized that God was everything he needed to live.

Thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. It took me a long while to understand this.

 

[francisdesales]

Im quoting zeke 18, where it says god declares the man right. not that guy whom thinks he is right. there is a difference. even the jews then know that. they also knew of grace. if they didn't how could they have understand it when jesus spoke of it. and Noah found grace in eyes of god.

From reading Ezekiel 18, it seems that he is speaking of this life and not eternal life.
It doesn't make sense any other way.

And how does THAT distinction make a difference???

God will punish someone who is wicked ONLY in this life, and then open the gates to heaven upon that person's death and grant them eternal rest???

Only the clean of heart shall enter into heaven. NO WICKED SHALL INHERIT THE KINGDOM, Paul makes that clear like 5 times in the NT...

 

[Deborah13]

Only the clean of heart shall enter into heaven. NO WICKED SHALL INHERIT THE KINGDOM, Paul makes that clear like 5 times in the NT...

You are correct, no unclean thing will inherit the kingdom so....that means me, you, and joe shmo ain't goin'. So how's that suit ya'. Because there is not one living soul that is without sin and our righteousness is as filthy, bloody rags.
So what is the solution? Faith in our Lord that His righteousness is sufficient. Have your robes been washed in the blood of the Lamb? Where does the Word say there is any other way to wash your robe spotless. I think that is the criteria, robe must be spotless?

Or do you know some other solutions?

It's all about JESUS and what HE DID, it's not about US and what we do. What we do amounts to piddly compared to HIM.

 

[farouk]

david just describe el-shaddai. interesting thing about Him but that is another topic.if you are going to use the psalms for doctrine then tell me why Ezekiel contradicts that?

Do you suppose David wrote this Psalm before he committed pre-meditated adultery and murder? Of coarse I don't know. What I do know is the David was not put to death for these sins.
I think though that David would have felt very much "the shadow of death" as his baby son was dying and he knew that is was because of his sin. He cried out
asking God not to take His Spirit from him, if I remember correctly.
I see here that even though the Law called for him to die, he found grace with God because of his faith. God said David was a man after his own heart. So I see David as a believer who sinned willfully and badly but he did not reject God and God did not reject him. God loved David and knew that the creature that is man is weak and prone to sin but He saw David's heart.

Surely if God gave such grace under the time of the Law of Moses, He is faithful to us, even when we mess up and are not faithful to him. He's a good father and does not give up on us.

I think some who include works (obedience) for their salvation they are seeing sinning as rejecting God. So did David reject God when he sinned. Most will say no and they will say of coarse David was saved because he didn't reject God. Do you see how silly that sounds. It's like they are saying David could get away with that but you/I can't. But then we see the woman caught in adultery, Jesus didn't allow her to be stoned either and she didn't even know Him. So how does that answer to Ezekiel? I don't know. Do you? I suspect it's called grace and faith. Oh, but the woman didn't have faith did she? Did she learn faith in Jesus through His grace to her?

I think Psalm 23 was written by a mature David who had been through the wringer and realized that God was everything he needed to live.

Thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. It took me a long while to understand this.

Deborah13:

We are under grace! Ephesians 2.8-9, etc.

Blessings.

 

[Deborah13]

David never turned from the Lord

I agree and I'm glad you can see that.
Would you say the same thing about a brother in Christ who had done this very same thing?

 

[Butch5]

David never turned from the Lord

I agree and I'm glad you can see that.
Would you say the same thing about a brother in Christ who had done this very same thing?

It depends on the person. People mess up and that doesn't necessarily mean they are rejecting Christ. However, some people simply choose to reject Christ.

 

[smaller]

We need to built especially on faith as seen in the New Testament before we try to built theories on why former 'believers' are supposed lost 'again'.

Romans 8 is a great antidote.

Your remarks have zero to do with what was shown in my post.

sorry.

s

 

[farouk]

We need to built especially on faith as seen in the New Testament before we try to built theories on why former 'believers' are supposed lost 'again'.

Romans 8 is a great antidote.

Your remarks have zero to do with what was shown in my post.

sorry.

s

I was, and am, talking about the idea that a believer can be lost, and Romans 8 indeed shows otherwise. We need to look at things in the light of the New Testament believer's perspective: that of born again believers indwelt by the Spirit of God.

 

[smaller]

Then please show me one and prove me wrong.

If you bothered to have even read the texts you wouldn't have made the statements you did.

I don't do people's homework for them.

Keep an uninformed opinion. Matters not to me if you haven't bothered to study it.

s

 

[smaller]

I was, and am, talking about the idea that a believer can be lost, and Romans 8 indeed shows otherwise. We need to look at things in the light of the New Testament believer's perspective: that of born again believers indwelt by the Spirit of God.

The Spirit of Christ was in Moses. Would you think that was 'less so' than in any of us?

When was the last time you spoke Gods Direct Words?

And I cited largely from the N.T. in the post as well.

lol

s

 

[Butch5]

Then please show me one and prove me wrong.

If you bothered to have even read the texts you wouldn't have made the statements you did.

I don't do people's homework for them.

Keep an uninformed opinion. Matters not to me if you haven't bothered to study it.

s

In other words they don't support your position and you can 't supply any that do?

 

[farouk]

I was, and am, talking about the idea that a believer can be lost, and Romans 8 indeed shows otherwise. We need to look at things in the light of the New Testament believer's perspective: that of born again believers indwelt by the Spirit of God.

The Spirit of Christ was in Moses. Would you think that was 'less so' than in any of us?

When was the last time you spoke Gods Direct Words?

And I cited largely from the N.T. in the post as well.

lol

s

The balance of the teaching needs to come from the New Testament, if we are trying to figure from Scripture whether a New Testament believer can be lost.

But you may have highlighted something accurately: we do have difficulty communicating about the same subject, because our outlooks are different.

 

[reba]

There is one Holy Spirit... Unless i read the Scriptures wrong the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit the same Spirit as in the OT . Yes today we have Him in the 'form' of the Comforter .... Tis the same Spirit

 

[smaller]

I see. Broad generalizations to begin... More comments on sectarianism, while avoiding the shortcomings of your own sect...

And I see you ran right by the specific observations made. go figure.

You understand that your own sect has determined exactly ZERO believers to be lost.

Can't get much closer to OSAS than that can you?

LOL

Determinism is not OSAS, first of all.

sez u.

Determinism is pagan fate,

Talk about generalizations. Even you are a determinist and you don't even have a clue that you are so.

again, go figure.

something that your sect is quite willing to put forward.

I don't hold to any denominationalism branding. It's against my faith.

Secondly, OSAS speaks of bypassing judgment.

Only in your false spin of same. I've given you directly several opportunities in this thread to view these matters with an accurate perspective and you have shot by and bypassed 'intentionally' every one of them.

So what else is new today? Let a few posts go by and don't respond means you win?

LOL to your 'style.'

Only entertainment for me.

The Scriptures do not speak of bypassing or avoiding judgment.

Never said they do.

Want a specific case AGAIN (or how many ever times it takes to see if you can pick up on it?)

Here is Paul:

2 Corinthians 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Is it remotely conceivable to you that the messenger of Satan is eternally judged and condemned and PAUL WAS OSAS?

Is 'judgment' missing in that equation for you? It certainly shouldn't be!

Is it remotely possible that even YOU have 'determined, even PRE-destined' Satan and all devils to THE LAKE OF FIRE?

Again, try to at least have some accuracy in these engagements please.

Even the Jews, who strongly believed in the concept of election, did NOT believe that they, as a group or individually, would avoid judgment -

Again, never said they did. Why you think that has any bearing whatsoever on the subject matter is unannounced by you.

I have already shown in this thread and therefore also to you that 'enemies of the Gospel' as it pertains to Israel are in fact SAVED in Romans 11:25-30. Perhaps you'd care to take a swipe at that fact sometime?

the wicked will be punished.

And every last one of us is a factual sinner.

Again your point is what?

Paul HIMSELF said he had not achieved it yet, and would still be judged by God Himself - but not men.

You think Paul went forward on 'iffy' salvation? I might say he looked to be resurrected while he was yet alive. But Paul's not being 'resurrected' while yet alive in a mortal body has no bearing on OSAS whatsoever.

But this novel heresy unheard of for well over a thousand years is "foundational"???

Oh please stop boring me with the ignorant history story. The New Testament writers held the position. Is that early enough for 'church fathers' for you? What is in writing, in scripture?

s

 

[smaller]

There is one Holy Spirit... Unless i read the Scriptures wrong the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit the same Spirit as in the OT . Yes today we have Him in the 'form' of the Comforter .... Tis the same Spirit

Well BRAVO. Somebody get's it.

s