Jesus' humanity

[gordon777]

Lucifer was good until he fell. An example of freewill from before the fall of mankind.
.

Lucifer( the serpent) was created to be more subtle than all the creatures God had made.

That subtilty is being the enemy of all unrighteousness, which the children of the devil are, who pervert the right ways of the Lord ( as the serpent did)

The serpent beguiles through that subtilty, which is corruption from the simplicity that is in Christ. ( which we saw that simplicity in the instruction of God to Adam and Eve.)





Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Acts 13:10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.



Adam and Eve were not the godly, ( they had sin nature) as God knows how to deliver the godly out of temptation ( of the serpent) but those who walk after the flesh ( all in Adam are in the flesh) walk to lust( Adam and Eve lusted after the tree of knowledge of good and evil) and despised the government( of God) as they showed self will..



2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.



The serpent( and then his children) was not afraid to speak evil of dignities( of God) and spoke evil against God, and the serpent and his children of the flesh all perish in that corruption( corrupted fro the simplicity that is in Christ by the serpent)

The serpents children of the flesh sport themselves with their on deceivings, and they cant cease from sin, s they are beguiling( as the serpent) unstable cursed souls..




2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

 

[D-D-W]

Well, maybe so, but if they were already Cursed, God referring to them as "Good" seems to be a serious mistake.

God never makes mistakes. Did they have a sin nature BEFORE eating the fruit? Scripture never directly says, but it would seem to be a "no," since God declared the 2 of them to be "VERY good."

 

[D-D-W]

She saw that the tree was good -- a serious misjudgment. She saw that it was a delight to her eyes -- another serious misjudgment. She thought that the tree would make her wise -- another serious misjudgment, the opposite of faith. And Adam , who heard directly from God, ate some of the fruit anyway. He disobeyed God's command. So they both sinned. Why? Because it was in their nature to sin. Why else would they have sinned???

Mrs Adam (she was not called Eve until later) sinned because she was deceived; she was told a lie and believed it:

1 Timothy 2:14
And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

The definition of deception is to believe a lie to be the truth. And there is a theory out there (again, not clear in scripture) that Adam CHOSE to disobey to remain with his wife; knowing that she would die for her disobedience and leave him alone again.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Mrs Adam (she was not called Eve until later) sinned because she was deceived; she was told a lie and believed it:

And if I might add (thoughts that are debatable) . . . who was leading and guiding Adam and Eve? The Holy Spirit? Did they possess the Divine Nature as an Effectual Guide who would prevent them from sinning? Were they filled with the Laws of the Spirit of Life, who would Effectually protect their minds against making such a decision? The Scriptures don't offer the facts behind this idea conclusively, but it is reasonable to believe that they had no Indwelling prompting from the Lord. It seems clear that they were not being led by the Holy Spirit, lest they would know the Truth of the Nature of the Serpent.

There are three Core Natures within the Bible and Adam and Eve possessed only one of them, the Human Nature (which serves and does what it is told). Without the guiding Holy Spirit, Adam and Eve served, doing what they were told to do. Once they sinned and the Curse of the Sinful Nature had been applied to their lives, their serving Human Nature was combined with the newly added Sinful Nature, which the Human Nature immediately began to serve, proven by their newly discovered emotions of fear, shame, and guilt.

When a person turns to Christ and receives His Spiritual Circumcision, the removal of the Sinful Nature, it is then replaced with the Divine Nature. It is at this time that the Human Nature begins to serve its new Spiritual Father, God the Father, instead of Satan . . . the old Spiritual Father.

So, Adam and Eve were created with one Nature. Once they sinned, all people would subsequently exist with two Natures, and never all three, for no one can serve two Masters. This means it is impossible to possess both the Sinful and Divine Natures. The Human Nature will co-exist with either the Sinful Nature or the Divine Nature and serve it diligently.

To accomplish this feat . . . this is the Purpose of Christ. Jesus executes His Purpose through His Holy Work and it is Holy Work that produces His Holy Effect.

Adam and Eve are two extremely rare people in the Bible, as their Human Nature was uninfluenced at a Spiritual level. However, the Human Nature was and always will be, designed to serve, to say, "Yes" to whatever Fathers it.

 

[jaybo]

Before they ate the fruit, they did not have any knowledge of Good and Evil. Satan lied to the girl and she fell for it because she didn't know what a lie was yet.

So God told them about the knowledge of good and evil, but they had no idea what He was talking about? That makes no sense.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

So God told them about the knowledge of good and evil, but they had no idea what He was talking about? That makes no sense.

Sure it does. Their eyes were not yet "open" to the understanding of anything not of God. When their eyes were "opened," they were also, and in turn, closed shut to God, for they became afraid of God, they were ashamed of themselves, and they were definitely guilty.

But, prior to this "opening" it doesn't seem reasonable that she would be aware of evil deception, for deception is not of God, but of the Devil. And . . . sin had not yet entered the world.

Romans 5:12 NLT - "When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned."

It seems conclusive from the Romans 5:12 passage above that there was no corruption in Adam and Eve until the "fall." And how long were they in the Garden, anyway? Do most of you believe as I once did that they were likely in the Garden for a matter of days and perhaps weeks at the most?

The beautiful Book of Jubiliees claims that Adam was in the Garden for exactly SEVEN years before they fell to Satan and his lie.

Jubil 03:17-18 - "And after the completion of the seven years, which he had completed there, seven years exactly, [8 A.M.] and in the second month, on the seventeenth day (of the month), the serpent came and approached the woman, and the serpent said to the woman, 'Hath God commanded you, saying, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?"

That's a long time to be alive without any sense of corruption whatsoever. This is something worthy to consider (IMO).

 

[jaybo]

And if I might add (thoughts that are debatable) . . . who was leading and guiding Adam and Eve? The Holy Spirit? Did they possess the Divine Nature as an Effectual Guide who would prevent them from sinning? Were they filled with the Laws of the Spirit of Life, who would Effectually protect their minds against making such a decision? The Scriptures don't offer the facts behind this idea conclusively, but it is reasonable to believe that they had no Indwelling prompting from the Lord. It seems clear that they were not being led by the Holy Spirit, lest they would know the Truth of the Nature of the Serpent.

There are three Core Natures within the Bible and Adam and Eve possessed only one of them, the Human Nature (which serves and does what it is told). Without the guiding Holy Spirit, Adam and Eve served, doing what they were told to do. Once they sinned and the Curse of the Sinful Nature had been applied to their lives, their serving Human Nature was combined with the newly added Sinful Nature, which the Human Nature immediately began to serve, proven by their newly discovered emotions of fear, shame, and guilt.

When a person turns to Christ and receives His Spiritual Circumcision, the removal of the Sinful Nature, it is then replaced with the Divine Nature. It is at this time that the Human Nature begins to serve its new Spiritual Father, God the Father, instead of Satan . . . the old Spiritual Father.

So, Adam and Eve were created with one Nature. Once they sinned, all people would subsequently exist with two Natures, and never all three, for no one can serve two Masters. This means it is impossible to possess both the Sinful and Divine Natures. The Human Nature will co-exist with either the Sinful Nature or the Divine Nature and serve it diligently.

To accomplish this feat . . . this is the Purpose of Christ. Jesus executes His Purpose through His Holy Work and it is Holy Work that produces His Holy Effect.

Adam and Eve are two extremely rare people in the Bible, as their Human Nature was uninfluenced at a Spiritual level. However, the Human Nature was and always will be, designed to serve, to say, "Yes" to whatever Fathers it.

Very interesting! Well thought-out!

 

[jaybo]

Sure it does. Their eyes were not yet "open" to the understanding of anything not of God. When their eyes were "opened," they were also, and in turn, closed shut to God, for they became afraid of God, they were ashamed of themselves, and they were definitely guilty.

But, prior to this "opening" it doesn't seem reasonable that she would be aware of evil deception, for deception is not of God, but of the Devil. And . . . sin had not yet entered the world.

Romans 5:12 NLT - "When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned."

It seems conclusive from the Romans 5:12 passage above that there was no corruption in Adam and Eve until the "fall." And how long were they in the Garden, anyway? Do most of you believe as I once did that they were likely in the Garden for a matter of days and perhaps weeks at the most?

The beautiful Book of Jubiliees claims that Adam was in the Garden for exactly SEVEN years before they fell to Satan and his lie.

Jubil 03:17-18 - "And after the completion of the seven years, which he had completed there, seven years exactly, [8 A.M.] and in the second month, on the seventeenth day (of the month), the serpent came and approached the woman, and the serpent said to the woman, 'Hath God commanded you, saying, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?"

That's a long time to be alive without any sense of corruption whatsoever. This is something worthy to consider (IMO).

It's not a good idea to base anything Biblical on the New Living Translation. "The New Living Translation is a thought-for-thought Bible translation. This is because it was translated with a dynamic equivalence approach. The original meanings of the text are translated with a greater priority than the word-for-word, literal translations." Other translations have this verse as... "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, in this way death spread to all men, because all sinned." HCSB; "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" KJV; "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all mankind, because all sinned" NASB; "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned" NIV; "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned" NRSVue. Clearly the NLT having the verse as "When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned" is at variance with the other translations. They don't have the principle of causation: sin entered because Adam sinned.

God gave Adam instructions, so he had a choice to make: know good and evil or "have life". Genesis 2:9, "Out of the ground the Lord God made to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food, the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." Since Adam was obviously living, "life" must mean faith, i.e. trust in God. Adam made the wrong choice, relying on himself to be the one who determines good and evil, not God. Why did he make the wrong choice? Because he already had a sin nature.

There was only one person in all of history who did not have a sin nature: Jesus Christ. Nobody else, including Adam, was created sinless.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Very interesting! Well thought-out!

Thank you so much . . . that is very encouraging.

I have read the Bible in a timeline, chronological order several times now, trying to answer the question, "What is the True Gospel." Each time that I finish a reading, I begin reading the Bible again but with a different translation. I believe it is a horrible idea to become stuck with only one set of words to discuss the Bible . . . the words and phrases found in your one, exclusively used translation. I actively use about 15 or 16. I love each of them and find that they are all conveying the same basic messages, with only a couple of notable exceptions.

My studies have led me to believe the things that I wrote above to be likely true. I am so thankful that so many translations are available, as the many help to explain the one expression likely to be true.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

It's not a good idea to base anything Biblical on the New Living Translation.

I laughed out loud and began to reply . . . right now. Actually, it would be useless to speak anything negative about this remarkable translation. If it were not for this translation (the NLT), I would not have likely been able to figure out the core message of the Bible.

Adam made the wrong choice, relying on himself to be the one who determines good and evil, not God. Why did he make the wrong choice? Because he already had a sin nature.

It's actually because God had an Eternal Plan and that Plan cannot and will not be thwarted, not even by those who believe they have the "free will" to control "things."

Ephesians 3:9-11 NLT - "I was chosen to explain to everyone this mysterious plan that God, the Creator of all things, had kept secret from the beginning. 10 God's purpose in all this was to use the church to display his wisdom in its rich variety to all the unseen rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. 11 This was his eternal plan, which he carried out through Christ Jesus our Lord."

I highly encourage all people to make sure, with certainty, that they know precisely what this Mysterious Plan is and why Paul asked others to pray for him, that God would grant him the wisdom to express it wisely to his soon-to-be listeners.

Ephesians 6:19 NLT - "And pray for me, too. Ask God to give me the right words so I can boldly explain God's mysterious plan that the Good News is for Jews and Gentiles alike."

Paul's hope is that all people would confidently be aware of the Lord's Mysterious Plan, and so should "you."

Colossians 2:2 NLT - "I want them to be encouraged and knit together by strong ties of love. I want them to have complete confidence that they understand God's mysterious plan, which is Christ himself."

 

[Edward]

So God told them about the knowledge of good and evil, but they had no idea what He was talking about? That makes no sense.

Sure it does. They should have trusted their Creator. Let's start here with what He said.

Genesis 2:17
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.../

Adam & Eve are in the Garden and God is telling them, this is your Garden but that one tree, the tree of knowledge of good and evil, do not partake of that tree because it will do you no good, trust me I am the Lord.

So it's reasonable to say that before Adam & Eve ate from that tree, they did not have any knowledge of good and evil. No one had ever lied to them before. What is a lie?
A lie is saying something which is not truth.
Whats truth? What's bad? What does consequences mean? What does it mean good?

They did not know. After they ate from the wrong tree, suddenly Adam & Eve were very street smart and it was if their eyes were open. Eve understood the definition of the word scheme. But the only problem was, God didn't want to hang out with them any more and made sure they couldn't still get to the tree of life and booted them out.
Consequences.

Adam & Eve understood very well (after they ate the fruit) the danger of it. Yes I thik they were somewhat clueless to the danger before they ate the fruit, other than God had said, don't eat it or you wll die. So with a somewhat clueless woman (and man) it was easy to trick them with it's a fruit which will make one wise.

I always try to sleep on it before I make decisions, lol.

 

[jaybo]

I laughed out loud and began to reply . . . right now. Actually, it would be useless to speak anything negative about this remarkable translation. If it were not for this translation (the NLT), I would not have likely been able to figure out the core message of the Bible.



It's actually because God had an Eternal Plan and that Plan cannot and will not be thwarted, not even by those who believe they have the "free will" to control "things."

Ephesians 3:9-11 NLT - "I was chosen to explain to everyone this mysterious plan that God, the Creator of all things, had kept secret from the beginning. 10 God's purpose in all this was to use the church to display his wisdom in its rich variety to all the unseen rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. 11 This was his eternal plan, which he carried out through Christ Jesus our Lord."

I highly encourage all people to make sure, with certainty, that they know precisely what this Mysterious Plan is and why Paul asked others to pray for him, that God would grant him the wisdom to express it wisely to his soon-to-be listeners.

Ephesians 6:19 NLT - "And pray for me, too. Ask God to give me the right words so I can boldly explain God's mysterious plan that the Good News is for Jews and Gentiles alike."

Paul's hope is that all people would confidently be aware of the Lord's Mysterious Plan, and so should "you."

Colossians 2:2 NLT - "I want them to be encouraged and knit together by strong ties of love. I want them to have complete confidence that they understand God's mysterious plan, which is Christ himself."

Judging by your posts I doubt that you would not have likely been able to figure out the core message of the Bible. You seem to be quite lucid in your thinking and able to express your thoughts clearly.

My point is that it is wrong to base doctrine on a what a single translation says, regardless of which translation. Bible translation is both an art and a science. Additionally, there is no direct parallel between the ancient languages and English. Vocabulary, verb tenses, idioms, etc. vary, so decisions must be made by committees of scholars about how to best do the translation according to their translation philosophy. The two extremes are word-for-word (literal) translations and meaning-for-meaning translations. Neither one are "correct". It just depends on the translators' goals.

The goal of the NLT is clearly meaning-for-meaning. Personally, I favor this goal over a word-for-word translation but, as I said earlier, when deciding upon doctrine, I believe it is best to examine a variety of translations. That is why I cannot accept the NLT's version of the story of Adam, since so many other translations have different wording.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

That is why I cannot accept the NLT's version of the story of Adam, since so many other translations have different wording.

Wow, that just blew my mind. I've never noticed any discrepancies between translations and the story of Adam and Eve. I actually keep track of things like that in an Excel spreadsheet. So, if you can easily think of the passages in question, I'd be all ears for them.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

I believe it is best to examine a variety of translations.

That is one of the best parts of a Bible study . . . to read between five and ten translations to hopefully really bring things together. I am so thankful for the Blue Letter Bible website! It's amazing.

 

[jaybo]

Wow, that just blew my mind. I've never noticed any discrepancies between translations and the story of Adam and Eve. I actually keep track of things like that in an Excel spreadsheet. So, if you can easily think of the passages in question, I'd be all ears for them.

This was part of one of my earlier posts...

Other translations have this verse (Romans 5:12) as... "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, in this way death spread to all men, because all sinned." HCSB; "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" KJV; "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all mankind, because all sinned" NASB; "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned" NIV; "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned" NRSVue.

The NLT translates this verse as "When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned", which changes the meaning in my opinion. It implies that there was no sin in the world prior to Adam's action.

 

[jaybo]

That is one of the best parts of a Bible study . . . to read between five and ten translations to hopefully really bring things together. I am so thankful for the Blue Letter Bible website! It's amazing.

I posted this on another forum but thought that it might resonate with you...

I was reading the Bible this morning and thinking about just why I read it more than any other writings -- by far. I read Scripture every day because it fills me spiritually. Then I came up with this comparison: it is like watering a garden.

Every time I read God's word it nourishes me spiritually, just as plants are nourished by water. Ephesians 5:25-27 is the verse that comes to mind: "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her in order to make her holy by cleansing her with the washing of water by the word, so as to present the church to himself in splendor, without a spot or wrinkle or anything of the kind, so that she may be holy and without blemish."

Something definitely happens to me when I read the Bible. The experience is unlike anything else. It is as though my spirit gets nourished by God.

What are your thoughts? Do you experience something similar?

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

This was part of one of my earlier posts...

Other translations have this verse (Romans 5:12) as... "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, in this way death spread to all men, because all sinned." HCSB; "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" KJV; "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all mankind, because all sinned" NASB; "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned" NIV; "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned" NRSVue.

The NLT translates this verse as "When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned", which changes the meaning in my opinion. It implies that there was no sin in the world prior to Adam's action.

Interesting ideas. Thank you.

As for sin in the world before Adam and Eve fell . . . another reason for why I would disagree is that neither of them knew that they were naked. It takes a bit of a Bible study, but there is a link between Adam's shame of his uncircumcised flesh and the shame discussed throughout the Scriptures . . . we're taught to be careful not to look up the skirts of others, for example. It wasn't until their "fall" that they realized their shame over their bodies.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

I posted this on another forum but thought that it might resonate with you...

I was reading the Bible this morning and thinking about just why I read it more than any other writings -- by far. I read Scripture every day because it fills me spiritually. Then I came up with this comparison: it is like watering a garden.

Every time I read God's word it nourishes me spiritually, just as plants are nourished by water. Ephesians 5:25-27 is the verse that comes to mind: "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her in order to make her holy by cleansing her with the washing of water by the word, so as to present the church to himself in splendor, without a spot or wrinkle or anything of the kind, so that she may be holy and without blemish."

Something definitely happens to me when I read the Bible. The experience is unlike anything else. It is as though my spirit gets nourished by God.

What are your thoughts? Do you experience something similar?

Well . . . maybe sortof?

I have had an extremely Powerful experience with the Spirit of God. It was so incredible that it nearly killed me, which would have been wonderful. I couldn't imagine a better way of dying . . . in the Spiritual Arms of God.

When I read the Bible, I read it knowing that the incredible story after story . . . they are True. Because I have felt the Raw, Almighty Power of God, any passage that deals with this Power, and in any form, I am just amazed by them all . . . and there are tons! So, the first thing that should stand out to all Christians is that God is Powerful and we are not. If we can grasp the importance of this attitude, it will serve us well.

From there, I was able to gather that the single most important doctrines to study and know back and forth is the Spiritual Circumcision of Christ. When that doctrine is understood, we will have recognized that the Bible revolves around this concept.

 

[hawkman]

Mrs Adam (she was not called Eve until later) sinned because she was deceived; she was told a lie and believed it:

1 Timothy 2:14
And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

The definition of deception is to believe a lie to be the truth. And there is a theory out there (again, not clear in scripture) that Adam CHOSE to disobey to remain with his wife; knowing that she would die for her disobedience and leave him alone again.

I do not see how Adam could not have known what was going on when Eve offered the forbidden fruit to him . I wonder if she could even look him in the eye , was she all a tremble , did she look like a deer in the headlights ? I think Adam had to know Eve was gone . But the question is would Adam go with her ? How long did Adam think on this and what were his thoughts before partaking of the fruit ? Was it his love for Eve that helped him decide to take the trip with her , could be .

 

[Edward]

Well . . . maybe sortof?

I have had an extremely Powerful experience with the Spirit of God. It was so incredible that it nearly killed me, which would have been wonderful. I couldn't imagine a better way of dying . . . in the Spiritual Arms of God.

When I read the Bible, I read it knowing that the incredible story after story . . . they are True. Because I have felt the Raw, Almighty Power of God, any passage that deals with this Power, and in any form, I am just amazed by them all . . . and there are tons! So, the first thing that should stand out to all Christians is that God is Powerful and we are not. If we can grasp the importance of this attitude, it will serve us well.

From there, I was able to gather that the single most important doctrines to study and know back and forth is the Spiritual Circumcision of Christ. When that doctrine is understood, we will have recognized that the Bible revolves around this concept.

Does this take place as part of our sanctification process?