Jesus promise: Recipients of eternal life will never perish!

[FreeGrace]

Jesus said he gives his sheep eternal life. It's not an 'if then' proposition. ie. it's not If they receive eternal life, they will never perish.

Yes, correct. He also said they will never perish. Once eternal life is received, the recipient will never perish.

So your statement, "And Jesus promised that recipients of eternal life will never perish. So, how can anyone who has received eternal life (making them a recipient) ever perish. It is impossible." is very much OSAS. Like OSAS, if saved always saved.

Exactly!

Re. the fallen, the question should be were they saved? Did God save them? I would say no. He let them fall. If they were his sheep, he would not have let them fall.

There are various views on this subject. My view is that believers can rebel and fall away. But that doesn't mean they lose salvation, based on many passages that teach eternal security.

I found Isa 1:18-20 to be instructive re: this subject:
18 “Come now, let us settle the matter,” says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.
19 If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the good things of the land;
20 but if you resist and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword.” For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.

NASB says "reason together" in v.18. v.19and 20 are two diametrically opposed actions; with consequences for each.

I don't see this passage as being necessarily directed to unbelievers because it makes no sense to include blessing and reward for obedience of lifestyle. That would suggest one is saved by works, which they aren't. So this passage is directed to believers. They have 2 choices or paths to take.

I'm aware of the Calvinistic doctrine of "perseverance of the saints", which I understand to be that true believers cannot fall away from the faith. But I haven't seen that idea in Scripture. In fact, I see the opposite.

So, even though a believer can rebel, just like the prodigal did, they remain a son of God, just like the prodigal remained a son of his father.

There is no evidence of the Holy Spirit in former believers.

Exactly. Paul explains it this way:
Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
1 Thess 5:19 - Do not quench the Spirit.

The only way for evidence of the Holy Spirit is explained this way:
Eph 5:18 - Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit,
Gal 5:16 - So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

Former believers, and believers who are grieving and quenching the Spirit WILL "gratify the desires of the flesh". They will look EXACTLY like unbelievers.

If they had the Spirit, they would believe.

The Spirit does not force any action or thought on those He indwells. One must be filled with the Spirit and walk by means of the Spirit in order to produce the fruit of the Spirit, per Gal 5.

A believer, through any kind of self centeredness and carnality, grieves/quenches the Spirit, is out of fellowship with God.

But they don't. It's more likely they did not believe the Spirit, so the Spirit could not find a home in them.

Eph 1:13,14 indicates the Spirit indwells the believer from the moment they "have believed". So He's not looking for a home. He indwells every believer from the moment they believe. And this is a guarantee of our inheritance for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14

Anyways, if they do not possess the Spirit, then they are not sealed - Because it is the Spirit that seals.

Yes, absolutely. But we must remember Paul's commands:
stop grieving and stop quenching the Spirit.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But Jesus taught in John 5:24 that eternal life is possessed WHEN one believes.

Stop abusing the present tense in John 5:24 NASB.

"24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." (John 5:24 NASB)

You're making a statement about who has eternal life (believers, not ex-believers) into a statement about when a person gets eternal life. You can't do these kinds of things to scripture. That's why your doctrine is being rejected in this forum.

 

[FreeGrace]

We are marked IN HIM with a seal. OUT OF HIM, and the seal becomes undone.

That's exactly what I've been asked about. Where does the Bible teach anything about being UN-done, UN-sealed, or UN-marked?

Given the clear and specific wording of Eph 1:13,14, it would follow that if any of this could be undone, the Bible would directly address this.

I've explained many times how Kings used to seal their decrees and many times change their mind. You could look this up for yourself since it wold behoove you to do so.

I don't think it necessary to look this up since the seal you're describing is a physical object, whereas Eph 1:13 speaks of the Holy Spirit Himself being the seal, which marked the one having believed IN HIM. I see no relevance between your seal and Eph 1:13.

Your second sentence is the opposite:
One loses the Holy Spirit, and THEN he looses salvation.
Where does the N.T. teach this?
Let's try Acts 2:41-44

OK, let's do:
41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
42 They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.
43Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles.
44 All the believers were together and had everything in common.

I'm not seeing anything here relevant to your comment. Is this the passage you were thinking about?

Those who had received his word (Peter) were:
baptized
they were continually devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching
and fellowship
to communion
to prayer

If one stops doing the above and decides he'd rather live without God, then he certainly loses the Holy Spirit.

Where does your conclusion come from? There is no mention of the Holy Spirit, much less about losing the indwelling of the Spirit.

Romans 15:4
What was written in previous times is for our instruction that through PERSEVERANCE we might have hope.

Yes. Biblical "hope" really means "confident expectation", not how it's used today, as in wishful thinking.

God helps us, throught the Holy Spirit, to achieve this perseverance. If we LEAVE GOD, He can no longer help us.

While it is true that God no longer helps us if we leave Him, we are still sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit. We are marked by the Spirit as God's possession. Eph 1:13:14.

Why would so much be written about perseverance unless it were possible NOT TO PERSEVERE??

I certainly agree that it is possible to not persevere. But that's not about persevering in salvation. It is God who holds us in His hand, and "no one" which means "no person" can remove us from His hand.

When the Bible speaks of being severed/etc from Christ, it does not refer to being taken out of His hand, because Jesus closed that door idea in John 10:28,29.

Just as a child can rebel against their parent and still be the child of the parent, so can a believer rebel against God (grieve/quench the Spirit) yet still be God's child. Just out of fellowship and facing God's discipline, which is PAINFUL, per Heb 12:11.

Those believers who grieve or quench the Spirit are in for a rough ride. Even if we can't see it. So we can't judge.

 

[FreeGrace]

Stop abusing the present tense in John 5:24 NASB.

"24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." (John 5:24 NASB)

You're making a statement about who has eternal life (believers, not ex-believers) into a statement about when a person gets eternal life.

Please explain how the present tense means one must believe 'presently' every day in order to have eternal life. That seem to be the view you've expressed.

You can't do these kinds of things to scripture. That's why your doctrine is being rejected in this forum.

No, I'm just swimming among Arminians.

Abuse of the present tense is to claim that it means that one must continually believe 'presently'. That warps that tense into some kind of future tense.

The present tense simply means "currently", or "right now", or even "today", as an example. There is no sense of the future.

But, some have claimed that the present tense means that every day one must be believing.

One can believe today, or currently, or even right now, but doesn't mean that one will continue to believe in the future.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

When a theology is far out side the realm of common Biblical sense as to say a Christian could convert to Islam and still be in Christ .. I will have no part of it.. Sounds like heresy to me

That's right. It's so absurd I can't believe the church has to even contend with this nonsense.

Someday, somewhere, when a Muslim is getting ready to cut his Christian co-worker's head off and the Christian remembers that Freegrace doctrine taught him that he can deny Christ and get out of this predicament and go home to his family tonight, and he will still be saved, and he does that, well, Jesus tells us it's not going to go very well with the person who leads a little one who believes in him to stumble so as to go the eternal hell (Matthew 18:6-9 NASB).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Please explain how the present tense means one must believe 'presently' every day in order to have eternal life. That seem to be the view you've expressed.

If you do not believe today are you still presently believing? Of course not!
Good grief, FreeGrace, wake up!

 

[FreeGrace]

That's right. It's so absurd I can't believe the church has to even contend with this nonsense.

Someday, somewhere, when a Muslim is getting ready to cut his Christian co-worker's head off and the Christian remembers that Freegrace doctrine taught him that he can deny Christ and get out of this predicament and go home to his family tonight, and he will still be saved, and he does that, well, Jesus tells us it's not going to go very well with the person who leads a little one who believes in him to stumble so as to go the eternal hell (Matthew 18:6-9 NASB).

Jesus promised that those He gives eternal life to will never perish. John 10:28

 

[FreeGrace]

If you do not believe today are you still presently believing?

Thanks for another example of how to abuse the present tense. You've taken the idea of "today" and keep applying it daily out into the future.

Today means just that; right now. Not "right now" daily for the rest of your life, as your claims insinuate.

Of course not!
Good grief, FreeGrace, wake up!

I've had 2 cups of coffee already. I'm wide awake. But, please stop warping the present tense.

From John 5:24 Jesus taught that one who believes TODAY WILL NOT come into condemnation. That's future. Today is presently.

So, by believing TODAY, one will never perish. That's the present tense. That's all it means. Not that one must believe every day in order to never perish.

 

[GodsGrace]

Give up Jethro.

This is biblical.
Shake the dust from your sandals.

 

[Nathan]

I didn't. It seems you're not understanding my points.

The righteousness we are credited with comes through faith, per Gal 3:6. iow, it is Christ's righteousness that is credited to us. This is part of being in union with Christ (Eph 1:13).

Being credited with that righteousness doesn't prevent one from rebelling.

Your question implies that it is our own continuing action of believing that maintains this credited righteousness. Which the Bible doesn't teach.


Just as the sealing with the Holy Spirit is a one time event, so is the crediting of Christ's righteousness to us. It is given ONLY through faith. But once given, it is permanent. Just as the sealing is permanent. Otherwise the Bible would have said so.


The fact of His promise is eternal security. We are securely His even when we take a trip to "a far country".


The Bible says so, so I believe it. But the Bible doesn't teach that turning one's back on Christ means or leads to loss of salvation.

I find that impossible because of what Jesus said about those He gives eternal life; they will never perish.

A promise of eternal security.

Actually, it's our being in Him that brings continual righteousness - not our continual act of believing.

If we are not in Christ then His righteousness cannot be applied.

Do you believe that you have righteousness apart from Christ?

 

[Nathan]

Give up Jethro.

This is biblical.
Shake the dust from your sandals.

Jude - if it's concerning the faith directly we should contend.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jude - if it's concerning the faith directly we should contend.

Nice!

 

[Nathan]

Nice!

2 Timothy 4
1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom:
2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching.
3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,
4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.
5 As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come.
7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing.

Not everyone has this responsibility, but those who are called for it do.

I sometimes get sad when I hear preachers trying to make everyone who believes feel like they have to fulfill the work of something they were never called for.

The only thing all of us should always speak out against - even if it's not elaborate - is teaching that goes against the faith. It can be a simple "that's not right, where does it say such". We are to hold each other accountable.

 

[GodsGrace]

2 Timothy 4
1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom:
2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching.
3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,
4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.
5 As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come.
7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing.

Not everyone has this responsibility, but those who are called for it do.

I sometimes get sad when I hear preachers trying to make everyone who believes feel like they have to fulfill the work of something they were never called for.

The only thing all of us should always speak out against - even if it's not elaborate - is teaching that goes against the faith. It can be a simple "that's not right, where does it say such". We are to hold each other accountable.

I agree Nathan
That's why I post regarding what I feel is important.
But someone here is Stuck on John 5:24 and 10:28.

 

[Nathan]

I agree Nathan
That's why I post regarding what I feel is important.
But someone here is Stuck on John 5:24 and 10:28.

Yea, I hear you.

The way I see it, sometimes the field we have to plow is 2 acres, sometimes it's 200 acres.

 

[Gregg T]

Hi GreggT

Difficult to reply to you since I agree with everything you've said in your last paragraph.

Except the very last sentence.
What do you mean that I did not find my own way into heaven or into Christ?
I was handed a choice:
I could believe in Him or I could not.
Deuteronomy 30:19
Acts 2:37-38

I choose to believe in Christ and to follow Him.
Do you not believe in free will?
Did God force me to follow Him?

The same way I went in, I go out --- by free choice.
Otherwise I am again a slave as I was to satan...

Hi Wondering,

I was thinking about the many times people have said in these forums that 'we can leave Christ,' and wondered if that were possible given our position in Him, and who took the actions putting us in Him A couple of verses came to mind before I wrote that last sentence:

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down),
Rom 10:7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)."
Rom 10:8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

We did not travel to heaven or the abyss to find God. He came to us. He sent his word to us. I began thinking about our position in Christ, regarding the differences before and after believing. But for our believing, God did all the actions. He brought us to the narrow gate, circumcised us, set us in Christ, united us with His Spirit. He transferred us from the domain of darkness to the kingdom of His Son.

If one could leave Christ, then God would necessarily be required to take certain actions, one being to sever the union with His Spirit, a union that He made.

How can a man undo what God has done? God would have to take these actions for a believer to lose salvation:
- sever the union with His Spirit
- set us somewhere outside of Christ, expell him from His Body
- transfer him out of His kingdom

If a person is saved, and could somehow lose salvation, then:
- never perish really means might never perish
- eternal really does not mean forever
- God is not the Perfecter / Finisher of our salvation
- no one can take a person from God's hand, but someone can
- God is our co-Savior
- Christ conditionally mediates for us
- the gifts are without regret / irrevocable but actually revocable
- Christ is the door, a revolving door
- Our Shepherd does not retrieve wandering sheep
- believers are conditional pillars in God's temple and they might go out of it
- God's unconditional covenants are really conditional

The list could go on.

- - -

One who believes in God from his heart is saved, forever, never to be lost again. One who believes superficially, not from the heart, may appear or imagine for a time to have salvation.

 

[Nathan]

Hi Wondering,

I was thinking about the many times people have said in these forums that 'we can leave Christ,' and wondered if that were possible given our position in Him, and who took the actions putting us in Him A couple of verses came to mind before I wrote that last sentence:

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down),
Rom 10:7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)."
Rom 10:8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

We did not travel to heaven or the abyss to find God. He came to us. He sent his word to us. I began thinking about our position in Christ, regarding the differences before and after believing. But for our believing, God did all the actions. He brought us to the narrow gate, circumcised us, set us in Christ, united us with His Spirit. He transferred us from the domain of darkness to the kingdom of His Son.

If one could leave Christ, then God would necessarily be required to take certain actions, one being to sever the union with His Spirit, a union that He made.

How can a man undo what God has done? God would have to take these actions for a believer to lose salvation:
- sever the union with His Spirit
- set us somewhere outside of Christ, expell him from His Body
- transfer him out of His kingdom

If a person is saved, and could somehow lose salvation, then:
- never perish really means might never perish
- eternal really does not mean forever
- God is not the Perfecter / Finisher of our salvation
- no one can take a person from God's hand, but someone can
- God is our co-Savior
- Christ conditionally mediates for us
- the gifts are without regret / irrevocable but actually revocable
- Christ is the door, a revolving door
- Our Shepherd does not retrieve wandering sheep
- believers are conditional pillars in God's temple and they might go out of it
- God's unconditional covenants are really conditional

The list could go on.

- - -

One who believes in God from his heart is saved, forever, never to be lost again. One who believes superficially, not from the heart, may appear or imagine for a time to have salvation.

How does a person know if they have believed from the heart or superficially? Is salvation based on their ability to believe enough?

 

[Gregg T]

Jesus contrasts them with ones who are not saved. Is there anywhere, other than this one passage, where Jesus says a person believes but is not saved?

We find so many passages that Jesus is speaking, saying that "whoever" believes is saved. Yet this one passage says the person believed, but it's supposed to be understood that it wasn't real? Would Jesus say something that wasn't real?

We can't inturprete the passage to say the root was never untited. Think about it. I'm sure you have some rocky soil there in Tulsa, go out and grab a plant from it and see if it's attached. The root won't be very deep, but I'm sure you will pull up some soil with it.

Matthew 13
5 Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil,
6 but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away.

You seem to neglect that the word of God produced life. No matter how little it was, it still produced life in the soil.

Why do you assign Luke 8:18 to the parable? Jesus was speaking about those who were listening to the parable, not the people in the parable.

The root won't be any deep in a rock, not to any depth within the rock, only on its surface. The word of God never entered into the heart of that one.

There is a difference between believing superficially and believing from within the heart.

You are still conflating the plant with the rock. Its the plant that withered, not the rock (which withdrew).

You seem to neglect that the seed (word of God) became a plant (word of God).

 

[Nathan]

The root won't be any deep in a rock, not to any depth within the rock, only on its surface. The word of God never entered into the heart of that one.

There is a difference between believing superficially and believing from within the heart.

You are still conflating the plant with the rock. Its the plant that withered, not the rock (which withdrew).

I'm not confusing it at all. I've never stated they were the same.

The plant only withered because the rock was unable to retain water during a time of great heat. We know there was 'some' soil.

Mark 4:5 (ESV)
Other seed fell on rocky ground, where it did not have much soil, and immediately it sprang up, since it had no depth of soil.

There is no reason to believe the plant had not any root in the soil. I have never seen a plant that grew without a root. The root comes first, then the plant. We know that it is just the soil was not very deep, unable to keep much water - but enough to sprout the seed and for the plant to grow. There is no denying the plant grew. There was life in the soil.

Where do we find the distinction of beliefs? That puts the responsibility of salvation on us. Is there another instance where belief is designated as 'enough'?

How can we say that a person has to believe a certain way, or a certain amount, before God accepts them?

 

[Gregg T]

Close but no cigar.

Actually, it's our being in Him that brings continual righteousness - not our continual act of believing

IMO "continual" is an unnecessary embellishment and a false dichotomy, although your predisposition necessitated using it. Rather, He is the righteous One, and He is our righteousness. On the other hand "eternal" is a necessary adjective to describe the type of life that God gives, unless God has a secret meaning for the word eternal.

Can a person hear the Lord saying publically "never perish" while He was thinking to Himself 'well . . . might never perish?'