Jesus promise: Recipients of eternal life will never perish!

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"If v.27 is a condition for never perishing, then Jesus would have worded v.28 differently"

Have you known the mind of the Lord? Have you been His counselor?

No. No.

This is purely speculative to assume what He would have said if He meant to say something.

There is nothing to assume. In v.28 Jesus noted who the recipients of eternal life are: His "sheep", meaning believers. In the very next breath He promises that they will never perish. That can ONLY be true IF there are NO conditions the recipients must meet in order to never perish.

So, IF there WERE conditions, He would surely have made the point. Otherwise, if there are ANY conditions by which a recipient can perish, then His statement simply cannot be true. He said they WON'T. So they CAN'T.

More speculation. You cannot possibly believe you can speak for Him as to what He would have said. There it is. You are reading into His Word, and you are calling it a straight forward fact where everyone else's is opinion.

Are there recipients of eternal life who may perish?

It was not true. It was contradicting your speculation; not the Word of the Lord. Suggesting someone does not believe what Jesus said is pushing the envelope too far.

What Jesus said needs no interpretation. It is very clear and direct. Recipients of eternal life will never perish.

I highly suggest you slow your roll. You are on shaky ground with these statements.

Is there anywhere within the context of ch 10 where Jesus indicated exceptions to recipients who might perish?

 

[reba]

When a theology is far out side the realm of common Biblical sense as to say a Christian could convert to Islam and still be in Christ .. I will have no part of it.. Sounds like heresy to me

 

[Nathan]

The Bible says we have the righteousness of Christ through faith.


Yes. Because you are STILL marked in Him with a seal, the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit which guarantees our inheritance for the day of redemption, as God's possession. Eph 1:13,14

Since we are God's possession, we will never perish.

Union with Christ is permanent, and you've not shown from Scripture otherwise.

So I have no reason at all to accept such an idea.

First you say righteousness is through faith, then you say we can have it apart from faith? Did you mean to contradict yourself?

Can you show me where righteousness is given without faith?

Christ said He would never leave us, do you know where He said we could never leave Him? I've never seen that passage. Do you believe we can leave Christ, fall away?

 

[Nathan]

So, IF there WERE conditions, He would surely have made the point. Otherwise, if there are ANY conditions by which a recipient can perish, then His statement simply cannot be true. He said they WON'T. So they CAN'T.

In verse 27 He said His sheep hear Him and follow Him. So doesn't your same logic apply? He says they will so they will?

 

[MarkT]

I said this:
"So, where is any of that taught in Scripture? So far, all I've seen is opinions. No Scripture to support the opinions."

Not at all. There are no verses that say plainly that one can lose salvation, eternal life. That is a fact.

And Jesus promised that recipients of eternal life will never perish. So, how can anyone who has received eternal life (making them a recipient) ever perish. It is impossible.

So, IF there were any verses that did plainly say that salvation can be lost, then the Bible would be internally conflicted. I reject such a notion.


What I've been given does NOT support it. Supporters of that idea think those verses supports their view. But there are no verses that plainly say salvation can be lost. That's the whole point.


On the contrary, I've provided a verse that very plainly promises that recipients of eternal life will never perish.

So, those who think salvation can be lost are at odds with Jesus' promise.


Oh, a lot has been provided. But none of it plainly says anything about salvation being lost.

And I've provided the single most clear and plain verse about eternal security; John 10:28, where Jesus said He gives them eternal life (they are recipients) and they will never perish. Very straightforward, very clear.

But some continue to believe that some recipients of eternal life WILL perish. So, who's right? Jesus' promise or the claims of some here?


I have shown Scripture that refutes the verses given. Such as Jn 10:28.


I respectfully ask for your interpretation of what Jesus meant in John 10:28. He either guaranteed that recipients of eternal life will never perish or something else. If He wasn't guaranteeing recipients that they will never perish, what was He even saying? Thank you.


I never said that. I have ALWAYS provided Scripture that SAYS what I claim. Such as John 10:28.

So, if John 10:28 doesn't guarantee eternal security to recipients of eternal life, I have no idea what Jesus was promising or even saying.

So, please help me out here. I see a clear statement about eternal security in the phrase "will never perish". What else could it mean?

I don't know what else. And no one else has explained what else He meant.

Jesus said he gives his sheep eternal life. It's not an 'if then' proposition. ie. it's not If they receive eternal life, they will never perish.

So your statement, "And Jesus promised that recipients of eternal life will never perish. So, how can anyone who has received eternal life (making them a recipient) ever perish. It is impossible." is very much OSAS. Like OSAS, if saved always saved.

Re. the fallen, the question should be were they saved? Did God save them? I would say no. He let them fall. If they were his sheep, he would not have let them fall.

There is no evidence of the Holy Spirit in former believers. If they had the Spirit, they would believe. But they don't. It's more likely they did not believe the Spirit, so the Spirit could not find a home in them. Anyways, if they do not possess the Spirit, then they are not sealed - Because it is the Spirit that seals.

 

[Nathan]

Jesus said he gives his sheep eternal life. It's not an 'if then' proposition. ie. it's not If they receive eternal life, they will never perish.

So your statement, "And Jesus promised that recipients of eternal life will never perish. So, how can anyone who has received eternal life (making them a recipient) ever perish. It is impossible." is very much OSAS. Like OSAS, if saved always saved.

Re. the fallen, the question should be were they saved? Did God save them? I would say no. He let them fall. If they were his sheep, he would not have let them fall.

There is no evidence of the Holy Spirit in former believers. If they had the Spirit, they would believe. But they don't. It's more likely they did not believe the Spirit, so the Spirit could not find a home in them. Anyways, if they do not possess the Spirit, then they are not sealed - Because it is the Spirit that seals.

What about the ones who believe for a while, but in times of testing they fall away?

Are they not saved?

*edit - maybe the better question is, were they not ever saved?

 

[Gregg T]

No, still cannot agree. Maybe a different translation will help.

NASB
“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away."

I agree the seed is the word of God. However, when the seed is planted it transforms into a plant when it starts to grow. Its still the word of God, but its the word of God, combined with belief, in the person, that makes the 'plant'(faith). The roots went down, just not far enough to establish a firm grasp. "No root" simply means no depth of root, not that there was not one present.

The plant withered away, not the seed. There is a distinct difference between the seed, and the plant.

1Pe 1:22-23
Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart, since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;

Jesus is very distinct in that the plant 'grew'. That growth is the word of God in an individual, not outside of it. The word of God is never said to 'grow' or produce anything in a person who does not believe it.

1Co 15:36-37
You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain.

The seed, the word of God, 'dies' in a persons heart, bringing forth new life. When a seed is planted, it combines with its 'environment' to grow into the plant it is designed for. The seed is simply a 'housing' for the life that is waiting to emerge by uniting with where it is sown.

Rom 7:9-10
I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me.

This is the 'longer' way around dissecting the parable, but we have a much shorter one. Jesus, while He was teaching the Disciples what the parable meant, told them directly that the ones who were classified by rocky soil, both received and believed. That should be sufficient enough for us to know that they both received and believed.

Question is then, is there ever said a person can both receive and believe the Gospel - and yet not be saved?

Yes, the very parable we are discussing.

The rock only seemed to have the word of God in it. The Gospel / word of God was always on the surface, never having penetrated the hard heart, never having recieved moisture, That rock, that hard heart of stone, exhibited an opportunist faith, not a saving faith. But for temporary adornment, the rock never recieved anything. But for a place to wither, the rock never gave anything.

Luk 8:18 Then observe how you hear; for whoever may have, it will be given to him; and whoever may not have, even what he seems to have will be taken from him.

 

[Nathan]

Yes, the very parable we are discussing.

The rock only seemed to have the word of God in it. The Gospel / word of God was always on the surface, never having penetrated the hard heart, never having recieved moisture, That rock, that hard heart of stone, exhibited an opportunist faith, not a saving faith. But for temporary adornment, the rock never recieved anything. But for a place to wither, the rock never gave anything.

Luk 8:18 Then observe how you hear; for whoever may have, it will be given to him; and whoever may not have, even what he seems to have will be taken from him.

So, let me try to understand you. Are you saying that when Jesus said they received and believed - that doesn't mean they really received and believed?

Why would we not believe what Jesus says?

If He said they received the word of God, why would we not believe they received it?

If He says they believed the word of God, why would we not believe they believed it?

Do you honestly believe that they did not receive it and believe it?

Luke 8:13 (ESV) 13 And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.

Is there ever any time that Jesus said a person could believe the word of God, but not receive life?

 

[Nathan]

Yes, the very parable we are discussing.

The rock only seemed to have the word of God in it. The Gospel / word of God was always on the surface, never having penetrated the hard heart, never having recieved moisture, That rock, that hard heart of stone, exhibited an opportunist faith, not a saving faith. But for temporary adornment, the rock never recieved anything. But for a place to wither, the rock never gave anything.

Luk 8:18 Then observe how you hear; for whoever may have, it will be given to him; and whoever may not have, even what he seems to have will be taken from him.

Ah, I just caught this. You believe Jesus said that those who received and believed were not saved?

I must have missed that part. Could you post the translation you use that says they were not saved? Maybe underline it so I can not mistake it.

 

[MarkT]

What about the ones who believe for a while, but in times of testing they fall away?

Are they not saved?

*edit - maybe the better question is, were they not ever saved?

No. Obviously they fell away.

Jesus said, "And then many will fall away, and betray one another, and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12 And because wickedness is multiplied, most men’s love will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end will be saved. Mt:24:10-13

 

[Nathan]

No. Obviously they fell away.

Jesus said, "And then many will fall away, and betray one another, and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12 And because wickedness is multiplied, most men’s love will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end will be saved. Mt:24:10-13

Ah, so do you believe that a person is not saved till the end? So what are they until then if they are not saved?

 

[MarkT]

Ah, so do you believe that a person is not saved till the end? So what are they until then if they are not saved?

What are they? They are like fish who are drawn to the light and are caught in the net of the kingdom.

47 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net which was thrown into the sea and gathered fish of every kind; 48 when it was full, men drew it ashore and sat down and sorted the good into vessels but threw away the bad. 49 So it will be at the close of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous Mt. 13:47-49 RSV

Both the good and the bad are captured.

So until they are sorted, everyone is a believer.

 

[Gregg T]

So, let me try to understand you. Are you saying that when Jesus said they received and believed - that doesn't mean they really received and believed?

Why would we not believe what Jesus says?

If He said they received the word of God, why would we not believe they received it?

If He says they believed the word of God, why would we not believe they believed it?

Do you honestly believe that they did not receive it and believe it?

Luke 8:13 (ESV) 13 And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.

Is there ever any time that Jesus said a person could believe the word of God, but not receive life?

Ah, I just caught this. You believe Jesus said that those who received and believed were not saved?

I must have missed that part. Could you post the translation you use that says they were not saved? Maybe underline it so I can not mistake it.

I could ask you to post the translation that says they were saved. But I am trying to have a respectable conversation.

Lk 8:13 does say they recieved the word, but demonstrates that the reception of it was not internal, or reciprocal. They believed in what temporarily - in the word temporarily. But did they believe into Christ so as to be saved?

Lk 8:18 indicates that he imagined, supposed, or appeared to have something. I do not think that indicates he had eternal life. Even the word he had near to him, having never penetrated his rock-hard heart, was taken away. It dried up after a time of opportunity. The result was that his heart withdrew from the word of God that he heard.

Yes people can recieve the word through their physical ears and bellieve its true, but never hear in their heart, never placing their faith in Christ.

Lk 8:13 is at best a weak argument for losing salvation.

However, one having "eternal life" who "will never perish" is a very strong argument for my position (Jn 3:16, Jn 6:39-40, Jn 10:28).

 

[GodsGrace]

1.

2.

3.

If 1. is true, 'He will never leave us',

Then, will the Lord accompany those supposedly 3. 'taking the broad path to hell'?

- - -

A believer can not sell Christ's birthright. A believer shares in Christ's birthright, as He is the firstborn among many brethren, and we are set firmly in Him, having believed into Him. We believers are not our own; as we have been bought with a price, brought into His captivity, transferred into the kingdom of Light, whose citizenship is in heaven, created in Christ, of incorrupable seed, joined to Christ, married to the Lord, beloved, placed into His hand, sealed by His Spirit; atoned for, forgiven, covered by His blood, justified in Christ, reconciled to God, sanctified, not foresaken; having a Savior, an Intersessor, a Mediator, a Counselor, our Peace with God, access to a throne of grace, knowing the Father and known by Him; released from death and sin and the world. We are His workmanship, His possession, His inheritance . . . given a type of new life in Him that is eternal so as to never perish in any case.

One did not find his own way into heaven, into Christ, into these things; how could he possibly find his own way out of this.

Hi GreggT

Difficult to reply to you since I agree with everything you've said in your last paragraph.

Except the very last sentence.
What do you mean that I did not find my own way into heaven or into Christ?
I was handed a choice:
I could believe in Him or I could not.
Deuteronomy 30:19
Acts 2:37-38

I choose to believe in Christ and to follow Him.
Do you not believe in free will?
Did God force me to follow Him?

The same way I went in, I go out --- by free choice.
Otherwise I am again a slave as I was to satan...

 

[GodsGrace]

OK, why is there nothing in Scripture that refutes the guarantee in Eph 1:13,14 about being marked IN HIM with a seal, the Holy Spirit??

If one can lose salvation, then they MUST also lose the Holy Spirit. Where does the NT teach that anywhere? It doesn't.

Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would be with us forever (Jn 14:16). Can a believer lose the Holy Spirit?

We are marked IN HIM with a seal. OUT OF HIM, and the seal becomes undone.
I've explained many times how Kings used to seal their decrees and many times change their mind. You could look this up for yourself since it wold behoove you to do so.

Your second sentence is the opposite:
One loses the Holy Spirit, and THEN he looses salvation.
Where does the N.T. teach this?
Let's try Acts 2:41-44

Those who had received his word (Peter) were:
baptized
they were continually devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching
and fellowship
to communion
to prayer

If one stops doing the above and decides he'd rather live without God, then he certainly loses the Holy Spirit.

Romans 15:4
What was written in previous times is for our instruction that through PERSEVERANCE we might have hope.
God helps us, throught the Holy Spirit, to achieve this perseverance. If we LEAVE GOD, He can no longer help us.

Why would so much be written about perseverance unless it were possible NOT TO PERSEVERE??

 

[Nathan]

What are they? They are like fish who are drawn to the light and are caught in the net of the kingdom.

47 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net which was thrown into the sea and gathered fish of every kind; 48 when it was full, men drew it ashore and sat down and sorted the good into vessels but threw away the bad. 49 So it will be at the close of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous Mt. 13:47-49 RSV

Both the good and the bad are captured.

So until they are sorted, everyone is a believer.

Can a person not be sure of their salvation?

 

[FreeGrace]

When a theology is far out side the realm of common Biblical sense as to say a Christian could convert to Islam and still be in Christ .. I will have no part of it.. Sounds like heresy to me

Where does the Bible teach that having believed and marked in Him with the Holy Spirit, which is a guarantee of our inheritance for the day of redemption, a person can be removed from being in Him?

In the parable of th soils, Jesus noted the second soil believed for a while, and then fell away because of trials/temptations. Isn't that a form of heresy? To turn away from the Savior?

Yet, Jesus gave no exceptions to those He gives eternal life. He said they will never perish.

 

[FreeGrace]

First you say righteousness is through faith, then you say we can have it apart from faith? Did you mean to contradict yourself?

I didn't. It seems you're not understanding my points.

The righteousness we are credited with comes through faith, per Gal 3:6. iow, it is Christ's righteousness that is credited to us. This is part of being in union with Christ (Eph 1:13).

Being credited with that righteousness doesn't prevent one from rebelling.

Your question implies that it is our own continuing action of believing that maintains this credited righteousness. Which the Bible doesn't teach.

Can you show me where righteousness is given without faith?

Just as the sealing with the Holy Spirit is a one time event, so is the crediting of Christ's righteousness to us. It is given ONLY through faith. But once given, it is permanent. Just as the sealing is permanent. Otherwise the Bible would have said so.

Christ said He would never leave us, do you know where He said we could never leave Him?

The fact of His promise is eternal security. We are securely His even when we take a trip to "a far country".

I've never seen that passage. Do you believe we can leave Christ, fall away?

The Bible says so, so I believe it. But the Bible doesn't teach that turning one's back on Christ means or leads to loss of salvation.

I find that impossible because of what Jesus said about those He gives eternal life; they will never perish.

A promise of eternal security.

 

[Nathan]

I could ask you to post the translation that says they were saved. But I am trying to have a respectable conversation.

Lk 8:13 does say they recieved the word, but demonstrates that the reception of it was not internal, or reciprocal. They believed in what temporarily - in the word temporarily. But did they believe into Christ so as to be saved?

Lk 8:18 indicates that he imagined, supposed, or appeared to have something. I do not think that indicates he had eternal life. Even the word he had near to him, having never penetrated his rock-hard heart, was taken away. It dried up after a time of opportunity. The result was that his heart withdrew from the word of God that he heard.

Yes people can recieve the word through their physical ears and bellieve its true, but never hear in their heart, never placing their faith in Christ.

Lk 8:13 is at best a weak argument for losing salvation.

However, one having "eternal life" who "will never perish" is a very strong argument for my position (Jn 3:16, Jn 6:39-40, Jn 10:28).

Jesus contrasts them with ones who are not saved. Is there anywhere, other than this one passage, where Jesus says a person believes but is not saved?

We find so many passages that Jesus is speaking, saying that "whoever" believes is saved. Yet this one passage says the person believed, but it's supposed to be understood that it wasn't real? Would Jesus say something that wasn't real?

We can't inturprete the passage to say the root was never untited. Think about it. I'm sure you have some rocky soil there in Tulsa, go out and grab a plant from it and see if it's attached. The root won't be very deep, but I'm sure you will pull up some soil with it.

Matthew 13
5 Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil,
6 but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away.

You seem to neglect that the word of God produced life. No matter how little it was, it still produced life in the soil.

Why do you assign Luke 8:18 to the parable? Jesus was speaking about those who were listening to the parable, not the people in the parable.

 

[FreeGrace]

In verse 27 He said His sheep hear Him and follow Him. So doesn't your same logic apply? He says they will so they will?

v.27 is a description of the behavior of His sheep, obviously. v.28 is a promise to His sheep, not based on anything beyond receiving eternal life.

To follow Him involves lifestyle. Over time. But Jesus taught in John 5:24 that eternal life is possessed WHEN one believes. That means lifestyle is NOT a requirement for receiving eternal life. There is nothing about lifestyle, obedience, etc in John 5:24. It's about hearing and believing. And on that basis alone, one has eternal life, will NOT come into condemnation, and has passed from death to life.