Jesus promise: Recipients of eternal life will never perish!

[chessman]

"is only temporary" NASB

You said Jesus said the JOY was temporary.

Jesus said the JOY was TEMPORARY.

Jesus said:

Matthew 13:20-21 The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.​

____?____ is only temporary?
A. The Joy
B. The seed
C. The man on whom seed was sown on the rocky places
D. The man's salvation
E. The plant

 

[GodsGrace]

There is one word of God, which is a double edged sword.

I have and am basing my comments on Lk 8:6 and Lk 8:13. There is superficial imagined faith which never unites with the word of God by taking it in to the heart, which never recipricates moisture, which never internally understood or knew the word of God, who withdraws from the word of God. This is what Scripture proves to me.

You could base your comments on Luke or on Mathew. Jesus is saying the same thing. He never changed His mind and came to teach us the truth.

You say there's a superficial, imagined faith which NEVER unites with the word of God by taking it to the heart. Which never INTERNALLY understood or knew the world of God.

Interesting. So my being saved has to do with how much I UNDERSTAND the word of God? NOT on my trusting in Jesus for my salvation...
John 3:16 For whosoever understandeth the Word of God...
NO! I think it says For whosoever BELIEVETH IN HIM.

Thank you for siting Mat 13:21, "but has no root in himself, but is temporary, and tribulation, or persecution occurring because of the Word, he is at once offended." as it states that nothing from the seed was in himself. What he heard remained superficial. The word of God never became internal to him, never entering into his hard heart; much less suggesting that Christ was ever in Him. The word was near him but not in his heart.

Ooops. Here you go again.
JESUS said the person believed. For a while. Or else WHAT DID THE PERSON DO FOR A WHILE???
I trust Jesus and what He says. If Hes says the person received the word with joy and this was only for a while

Do you not believe Jesus??
Jesus said the person FALLS AWAY.

Isa 55:10-13 "For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and do not return there without watering the earth and making it bear and sprout, and furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater; so will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, without accomplishing what I desire, and without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it. For you will go out with joy and be led forth with peace; The mountains and the hills will break forth into shouts of joy before you, and all the trees of the field will clap their hands. Instead of the thorn bush the cypress will come up, and instead of the nettle the myrtle will come up, and it will be a memorial to the LORD, for an everlasting sign which will not be cut off."

Yes. God is the Almighty Sovereign and even when we sin, I dare say He allows it and is responsible for the movement.

 

[GodsGrace]

You said Jesus said the JOY was temporary.


Jesus said:

Matthew 13:20-21 The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.​

____?____ is only temporary?
A. The Joy
B. The seed
C. The man on whom seed was sown on the rocky places
D. The man's salvation
E. The plant

Oh my chessman.
I'm back in elementary school.

Let's see, based on what you know about me,
what would YOU say?

Want to go down the list?
Do you know any UNBELIEVERS who accept God's word with JOY?
I don't.

Also, you're smart. What does HEAR mean in the Greek?
The person HEARS the word with joy.
Does it mean auricle hearing?
NO. You and I both know it means hearing with our mind and heart. Hearing --- to absorb into our being. If one "hears" in Greek, it means he has also understood it and accepted it.
No Greek lexicon needed.

Anyway, the answers are A and D and E

B will last forever.
C eventually will come to an end, when God so wills it.

 

[Gregg T]

There is a distinct contrast between the one who shrinks back, and the one who retain faith - both are from the "righteous one" pool.

As someone has responded before, there are those (God knows who) that only appeared to be saved, and that were never of us, never having believed into Christ,

1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

If a professing believer renounces Christ, later becomes an atheist, swears up and down 'God does not exist; I was deceived', then it is likely he only had a superficial faith and was never saved (God would know). But, if they were saved and said and did those things, then they would still have eternal life and never perish. If they were born from above, the Lord could not say, "I never knew you, depart from Me." Why, because He doesn't lie, and He knew then and stills knows them now, and He has said those to whom He gives eternal life will never perish.

On this issue, I rest firmly on Jn 3:16 and Jn 10:29. And . . . the content of those verses have yet to be approached here by your side, much less refuted.

Your side of the argument would be credible if you could somehow rufute Jn 3:16 and Jn 10:29.

 

[Gregg T]

I did not post the second quote in wondering's post#242.. Could you ask a moderator to change your post?

 

[Gregg T]

Let me understand this correctly. Are you saying that Jesus was not speaking the truth when He said they believed?

Luke 8:13 (ESV)
And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.

Nathan, Staff member,

I think you are pressing the TOS to the precipice when you make a statement like this. You are knowingly forcing something into my words which I did not intend.

Is this what these forums have come to, to resort to this?

 

[FreeGrace]

Do I what?

Do you have an answer to the baffling question?

Jesus did and said plenty of things that are not written down.

How is this relevant?

That's what it means.

What "what" means?

Are you trusting in the bible to save you or in Jesus?

Only Jesus, of course. Kind of a strange question, imo. What led to this type of question?

Jesus laid down a lot of LAW. Much to the chagrin of many.

And He lived during the Age of Law. So, naturally...

He said HE is the resurrection.

Because He IS.

In the gospel of John.

Correct. John 11:25-27

Look it up.

No need to. I memorized it.

You'll see other scripture as you try to find it.

How many times do you read through the NT per year?

It's after John 10, but don't let that stop you.

Why the hostile snarkiness? Is it really necessary?

So if HE'S the resurrection, and YOU ARE NOT IN HIM, you do not have the promise of the resurrection.

That's correct. No one does, who hasn't been marked IN HIM with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit. Who is a deposit that GUARANTEES our inheritance for the day of redemption as God's own possession. Eph 1:13,14

Any idea what "guarantees our inheritance for th day redemption" is referring to?

Try reading the entire N.T. and not piece by piece.
Give it a go.

Just more snarkiness. I read through the NT once a month. Have been doing so for at least 15 years.

1 Timothy 4:10
2 Timothy 3:16

Love them all.

Any reason to pick out those 2, specifically?

 

[FreeGrace]

Unless you no longer sin, I assure you that you want Christs righteousness and not your own.

Of course I do. And it has already been credited to me, so that I will never perish.

 

[FreeGrace]

If a person believes in the word of God, are they saved?

What does the Bible say about having salvation?
Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31 - They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Do you believe the ones on rocky soil were saved?

I certainly believe what Jesus said about it:
Luke 8:12 - Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. iow, if they did believe, they would be saved.
Luke 8:13 - Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

So, Jesus taught that those who believe ARE SAVED. So, yes, I believe the rocky soil was saved. Jesus said as much.

For those who think the second soil was not saved, why not? What text would lead that one to that conclusion?

 

[FreeGrace]

I am persuaded FreeGrace is stuck in Christ.

:yes

 

[FreeGrace]

Unless we decide to leave Him.
Abandon Him.
Forsake Him.
Go our own way.
For whatever reason.

What text would say that any of these things result in our union with Christ, per Eph 1:13 would be severed?

2 Peter 2:20-21

20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

All I see here about becoming "entangled again in the corruption of the world" is being "worse off at thend than they were at th beginning."

So, first, there is nothing about:
abandoning Him
forsaking Him

going your own way (not the Fleetwood Mac song) could be getting entangled in the corruption of the world.
for whatever reason is kinda vague, so doesn't really mean anything.

So out of the list of 4 things, only 1 could be found in the cited passage provided.

Even so, nothing in either verse speaks of being taken out of union with Christ. Only that things will be worse at the end than at the beginning. Is that referring to birth and eternity? Please prove it.

More likely (way more likely) it refers to one's life on earth, since that is the specific context anyway. So, iow, God's discipline, which is PAINFUL (Heb 12:11), results in life on this earth MUCH WORSE than before the idiot believer gets entangled again in the corruption of the world. This is called divine discipline.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"And, which text quotes Jesus as giving conditions regarding one's behavior as receiving eternal life?"

I'll just answer the last question:

Please read the entire gospel of Mathew.
You'll find plenty there...
Mathew 3:10 - The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
Mathew 5:3-10 -
3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.
10Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mathew 5:17 - “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
Mathew 5:48 - Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Mathew 7:19 - Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Sorry, but NONE of these verses/passages mentions behavior as resulting in eternal life.

Jesus specifically said that He gives eternal life to His sheep, which He defined as those who "enter through Me" as the gate to the sheepfold. John 10:9

Oh. just remembered that I've already given you this list...
To no avail, I see.

I'm glad that you see that your list is to no avail, because they don't support your claim.

 

[FreeGrace]

Jesus said the JOY was TEMPORARY.
THIS is what's important.

So "joy" is equivalent to "salvation" somehow???

I know many unsaved people who experience joy. Does that mean they're saved?

Just recall that Jesus said that recipients of eternal life will never perish. Not "most recipients", or "many recipients" or especially even "only those recipients who keep their noses clean".

 

[FreeGrace]

What Scripture addresses retaining righteousness?
What Scripture identifies a born from above believer that will perish, that will lose salvation?

Great questions!

Peter said this in 1 Pet 1:23 - For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

That's why a born again (from above) person cannot perish. Peter understand exactly what Jesus promised in John 10:28.

 

[MarkT]

Yes, correct. He also said they will never perish. Once eternal life is received, the recipient will never perish.


Exactly!


There are various views on this subject. My view is that believers can rebel and fall away. But that doesn't mean they lose salvation, based on many passages that teach eternal security.

I found Isa 1:18-20 to be instructive re: this subject:
18 “Come now, let us settle the matter,” says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.
19 If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the good things of the land;
20 but if you resist and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword.” For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.

NASB says "reason together" in v.18. v.19and 20 are two diametrically opposed actions; with consequences for each.

I don't see this passage as being necessarily directed to unbelievers because it makes no sense to include blessing and reward for obedience of lifestyle. That would suggest one is saved by works, which they aren't. So this passage is directed to believers. They have 2 choices or paths to take.

I'm aware of the Calvinistic doctrine of "perseverance of the saints", which I understand to be that true believers cannot fall away from the faith. But I haven't seen that idea in Scripture. In fact, I see the opposite.

So, even though a believer can rebel, just like the prodigal did, they remain a son of God, just like the prodigal remained a son of his father.


Exactly. Paul explains it this way:
Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
1 Thess 5:19 - Do not quench the Spirit.

The only way for evidence of the Holy Spirit is explained this way:
Eph 5:18 - Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit,
Gal 5:16 - So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

Former believers, and believers who are grieving and quenching the Spirit WILL "gratify the desires of the flesh". They will look EXACTLY like unbelievers.


The Spirit does not force any action or thought on those He indwells. One must be filled with the Spirit and walk by means of the Spirit in order to produce the fruit of the Spirit, per Gal 5.

A believer, through any kind of self centeredness and carnality, grieves/quenches the Spirit, is out of fellowship with God.


Eph 1:13,14 indicates the Spirit indwells the believer from the moment they "have believed". So He's not looking for a home. He indwells every believer from the moment they believe. And this is a guarantee of our inheritance for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14


Yes, absolutely. But we must remember Paul's commands:
stop grieving and stop quenching the Spirit.

Jesus told us you have to be born again.

The evidence of the Spirit is truth, what is in a man's heart, what comes out of a man's mouth. Mt. 12:34-37 If they fall away from the truth of Jesus Christ, the truth is not in them. If they deny Jesus, Jesus will deny them. Mt.10:33
Matthew 10:33
but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.

You quoted Isaiah for what purpose? You say rebels are saved. Isaiah says they are destroyed and consumed by fire. Isa. 1:28

Hebrews 12:29
for our God is a consuming fire.

 

[Bick]

I said this:
"If v.27 is a condition for never perishing, then Jesus would have worded v.28 differently"

No. No.


There is nothing to assume. In v.28 Jesus noted who the recipients of eternal life are: His "sheep", meaning believers. In the very next breath He promises that they will never perish. That can ONLY be true IF there are NO conditions the recipients must meet in order to never perish.

So, IF there WERE conditions, He would surely have made the point. Otherwise, if there are ANY conditions by which a recipient can perish, then His statement simply cannot be true. He said they WON'T. So they CAN'T.


Are there recipients of eternal life who may perish?


What Jesus said needs no interpretation. It is very clear and direct. Recipients of eternal life will never perish.


Is there anywhere within the context of ch 10 where Jesus indicated exceptions to recipients who might perish?

Bick here. Since "eternal" is a translation of the Greek word "aionion" (age-lasting), and we know we die and do not live "forever", what do you think "perish" means?

 

[GodsGrace]

I said this:
"And, which text quotes Jesus as giving conditions regarding one's behavior as receiving eternal life?"

Sorry, but NONE of these verses/passages mentions behavior as resulting in eternal life.

Jesus specifically said that He gives eternal life to His sheep, which He defined as those who "enter through Me" as the gate to the sheepfold. John 10:9


I'm glad that you see that your list is to no avail, because they don't support your claim.

Yes. FreeGrace.
What these scriptures show is that THESE persons CANNOT go to heaven.
If someone denies God and returns to a life of habitual sin, THEY ARE NO LONGER SAVED.

I wish you'd demonstrate some intellectual honesty.
You twist everything around to suit yourself.

You want some scripture showing how a person lost their salvation??

Try this:

Genesis 1:27 God made man in HIS image.
Genesis 1:28 God blessed the man and woman
Genesis 1:31 God said it was good.
Genesis 2:17 God gives a command.
Genesis 2:25 Man was innocent.
Genesis 3:6 Man sinned.
Genesis 3:7 They were no longer innocent.
Genesis 3:24 Man was banished from the Garden.

Adam and Eve were not only saved, they had preternatural gifts.
THEY BECAME LOST and were banished from the garden.

God cannot co-exist with sin.
If we do NOT HAVE CHRIST, we do NOT have LIFE.
Be it temporary or ever.lasting.
No Christ
No zoe Life.

 

[GodsGrace]

Great questions!

Peter said this in 1 Pet 1:23 - For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

That's why a born again (from above) person cannot perish. Peter understand exactly what Jesus promised in John 10:28.

The imperishable seed is the word of God.
The Word of God will not perish.
It's not talking about YOU.
YOU will perish if you abandon your only source of LIFE... JESUS.

 

[GodsGrace]

What text would say that any of these things result in our union with Christ, per Eph 1:13 would be severed?


20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

All I see here about becoming "entangled again in the corruption of the world" is being "worse off at thend than they were at th beginning."

So, first, there is nothing about:
abandoning Him
forsaking Him

going your own way (not the Fleetwood Mac song) could be getting entangled in the corruption of the world.
for whatever reason is kinda vague, so doesn't really mean anything.

So out of the list of 4 things, only 1 could be found in the cited passage provided.

Even so, nothing in either verse speaks of being taken out of union with Christ. Only that things will be worse at the end than at the beginning. Is that referring to birth and eternity? Please prove it.

More likely (way more likely) it refers to one's life on earth, since that is the specific context anyway. So, iow, God's discipline, which is PAINFUL (Heb 12:11), results in life on this earth MUCH WORSE than before the idiot believer gets entangled again in the corruption of the world. This is called divine discipline.

So if someone WAS IN THE WORLD
Becomes SAVED
and then GOES BACK INTO THE WORLD...becoming once AGAIN entangled..

This shows nothing of abandoning God?

Maybe YOU don't understand this, but hopefully those reading along do.

 

[FreeGrace]

Jesus told us you have to be born again.

Yes. And we are born again of imperishable seed. Just as being born physically is of corruptible seed, and we physically die as a result, being born again of imperishable seed means we will never perish. Exactly what Jesus promised in John 5:24 and 10A:28.

The evidence of the Spirit is truth, what is in a man's heart, what comes out of a man's mouth.

Why did Paul command in 2 of his epistles to "stop grieving the Spirit" in Eph 4:30 and "stop quenching the Spirit" in 1 Thess 5:19?

Is there evience of truth when a believer is grieving or quenching the Holy Spirit? Surely not.

Mt. 12:34-37 If they fall away from the truth of Jesus Christ, the truth is not in them. If they deny Jesus, Jesus will deny them. Mt.10:33
Matthew 10:33
but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.

This refers to a loss of blessing or reward in heaven. They will not be acknowledged before His Father. It does not say they will be denied entrance into heaven. That would be an assumption.

You quoted Isaiah for what purpose? You say rebels are saved. Isaiah says they are destroyed and consumed by fire. Isa. 1:28

The word "destroyed" is used throughout Scripture for physical death. iow, divine discipline for rebelling.