Jesus promise: Recipients of eternal life will never perish!

[FreeGrace]

Bick here. Since "eternal" is a translation of the Greek word "aionion" (age-lasting), and we know we die and do not live "forever", what do you think "perish" means?

It's not a matter of my opinion about Greek words. We have lexicons for understanding what Greek words mean.

This is the definition of 'perish' from John 3:16 -
NT:622 apollumi (ap-ol'-loo-mee); from NT:575 and the base of NT:3639; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively:

KJV - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

So, in the context of John 3:16, to "die" or "perish" is contrasted with possessing eternal life. So it refers to spiritual death, or eternal separation from God. Which is why the Bible uses the "second death" for the lake of fire.

 

[FreeGrace]

The imperishable seed is the word of God.
The Word of God will not perish.
It's not talking about YOU.

This is what Peter said: For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Is the word "you" in that verse now obvious? And your claim is incorrect. The imperishable seed is NOT the word of God.

Because Peter said YOU have been born again, THROUGH the Word of God.

No one is born physically THROUGH seed (sperm). We are born physically BY seed.

The same is true spiritually.

How did Mary become pregnant with Jesus? Luke 1:35 tells us. The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

I see nothing here about the Word of God causing Mary's pregnancy. I do see the Holy Spirit (imperishable seed) causing Mary's pregnancy.

I hope this will help in re-thinking your views.

 

[GodsGrace]

This is what Peter said: For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Is the word "you" in that verse now obvious? And your claim is incorrect. The imperishable seed is NOT the word of God.

Because Peter said YOU have been born again, THROUGH the Word of God.

No one is born physically THROUGH seed (sperm). We are born physically BY seed.

The same is true spiritually.

How did Mary become pregnant with Jesus? Luke 1:35 tells us. The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

I see nothing here about the Word of God causing Mary's pregnancy. I do see the Holy Spirit (imperishable seed) causing Mary's pregnancy.

I hope this will help in re-thinking your views.




YOU will perish if you abandon your only source of LIFE... JESUS.

[/QUOTE]
The word of God DID cause Mary's pregnancy.

Do you think Gabriel was speaking to her on his own behalf?
Did not the word of God create the whole universe?

Back to the drawing board...

Its good to know theology. It helps us to understand everything better.

 

[FreeGrace]

So if someone WAS IN THE WORLD
Becomes SAVED
and then GOES BACK INTO THE WORLD...becoming once AGAIN entangled..

This shows nothing of abandoning God?

No, it shows EVERYTHING of abandoning God. But why make the assumption that doing so results in loss of salvaton.

A believer can walk away from God. But no believer can walk away from salvation. Because salvation is all of God, and NONE of us.

We can't save ourselves and we can't unsave ourselves, which seems to be your view.

All I can do is point one to the promises of Jesus, which are eternal security.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

The present tense for 'believes' means 'right now', or 'currently', or 'at the PRESENT time'. So, WHEN one believes, whenever that occurs, Jesus promises 3 things here:
1. possession of eternal life (has eternal life)
2. will NOT be judged (in the future)
3. HAS crossed over from death to life

The present tense does NOT MEAN to "currently believe" every single day. That becomes some weird kind of future tense.

Let's say a person placed their faith in Christ June 1 of this year. On THAT day, he was presently believing. And from THAT day, the promise of Jesus applies: possession of eternal life, WILL NOT be judged, and has passed from death to life.

These 3 things are NOT dynamic in some mystical way. That when one ceases to believe, the promise of Jesus is held in suspension and revoked. Only to be revived IF one resumes believing.

The point of John 5:24 is that 3 things are PROMISED as a result of believing on the FIRST DAY they believed. On THAT day, they were believing in the present tense, and all 3 things were promised.

Jesus promised eternal security in John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

The first phrase is what Jesus DOES for His sheep, being believers.
The secon phrase is the RESULT of what Jesus DOES for His sheep; they will never perish.

I've been accused (lol) of being stuck on these 2 verses.

But, this is what I'm stuck on; truth. When Jesus makes a promise, He means it and keeps it.

So, everyone who EVER received eternal life has been promised that they will never perish.

These 2 verses, the promises of Jesus, are UNCONDITIONAL promises.

He gave NO CONDITIONS for never perishing.

The Bible puts it this way: Heb 12:2 - looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

He saves us and he keeps us. By His own promises. They are unconditional.

 

[GodsGrace]

That's WHEN he needed saving.


A number of things.

1. we are saved from the penalty of sin. past tense. justification
2. we are being saved from the power of sin. present tense. sanctification
3. we will be saved from the presence of sin. future tense. glorification.


That would be your issue. But I've tried to help out here. But it doesn't seem to have any effect.


Here is more help. What did Adam need saving from BEFORE he rebelled?


Innocent.


So, once again, what were they saved FROM?


These terms only apply to SINNERS. Before Adam sinned, he was NOT a sinner.


Jesus' unconditional promises in John 5:24 and 10:28 say otherwise.


This is correct, and you should be. There are no verses warning of losing salvation. Just the opposite, verses that unconditionally guarantee to never perish on the basis solely of what Jesus has done for us. That is grace.


Huh?? "never comment" on what I'm given?? Seriously??

I've been explaining the Garden to you in several posts and this is your conclusion?


Innocent. Unstained, unblotted.

They needed salvaton from the same thing we need salvation from:
The power of satan.
The power he has over us.

If satan had no power over them, they never would have sinned.
Innocent people are saved people, just like a 2 month old is innocent.
Is he not saved?

Enough FG.

 

[GodsGrace]

Please provide evidence from Scripture for this. I just showed HOW Mary became pregnant, and it wasn't the "Word of God".


No.


Yes.


Yes, please do.

Is the Holy Spirit ever called the Word of God? Please don't just give a single word answer. Provide evidence from Scripture.

The Word of God causes EVERYTHING to happen and to come to be.
There is no scripture necessary.
You could try Proverbs 4:19...
Job 38:4...
Proverbs 29:23 is interesting, but off topic, well, not really.

I've been providing scripture all along.

P.S. John 1:1-4 comes to mind also.

 

[Nathan]

Nathan, Staff member,

I think you are pressing the TOS to the precipice when you make a statement like this. You are knowingly forcing something into my words which I did not intend.

Is this what these forums have come to, to resort to this?

First off, I am only 'staff' for technical purposes - like emails, updates, name changes, etc. Please do not think of me as being a 'superior' over anyone. I am just a 'regular' guy like you who agreed to help out and with that came the 'title'.

Secondly, I was trying to be as clear as possible in my question without crossing any lines. I had asked you before, in a few different ways, what your thoughts were on Jesus stating the 'rocky soil' ones believed. Both times it really seemed that you believe that Jesus did not actually say they believed.

I asked - "So the ones that Jesus said received and believed the word of God did not actually believe?"
You responded - "Yes"

I asked - "Did Jesus bear witness that they believed?"
You responded - "no"

This is why I asked the more direct question. I really do apologize that it offended you - that was NOT my intention. I truly just wanted to 'boil down' the question to the point I could not be mistaken in what you believed.

You state that Jesus did not bear witness that they believed. I honestly was shocked that you stated this because it very specifically worded in Luke 8:13 that Jesus said(not someone else, but Himself) that they "believed for a while".

So if you do not believe that He bore witness to this - which simply means that He stated it as a fact - then there is only one other option that you seemed to indicate. Therefore, my next reply/question was trying to make sure that intended to say what you did.

Again, I did not mean to offend you - I apologize that it did. If you would like to re-state your position on this matter I am all ears. I honestly could not believe that you would think such a thing so I wanted to actually understand that it was not what you thought, I did not write that post in a way to criticize - but rather clarify.

 

[GodsGrace]

Please provide evidence from Scripture for this. I just showed HOW Mary became pregnant, and it wasn't the "Word of God".


No.


Yes.


Yes, please do.

Is the Holy Spirit ever called the Word of God? Please don't just give a single word answer. Provide evidence from Scripture.

I'd like to stop, but you keep asking these questions...

Jesus is called the Word of God.
The Holy Spirit is called the Paraclete.
The Father is called The Creator.

But the funny thing about the Trinity is that although each one has His very own attributes, they are still all one and the same.
The titles are for our benefit.
HOW do you separate ONE GOD?
He is NOT 3 Gods. He is ONE God. He cannot be separated.
All are everything and each one is all.

Sorry. No scripture for this. That's why it's important to study theology, as I've said before.

 

[chessman]

Let's see, based on what you know about me, what would YOU say?

I assumed you would answer pretty much as you did.

Do you know any UNBELIEVERS who accept God's word with JOY?
I don't.

No. But while we continue to discuss things not in this Text, do you know any unbelievers who experience the joyous outcome of their re-birth without first acknowledging their sins and their desperate need of salvation? I don't. I didn't feel any joy without first acknowledging my guilt (cut to the quick, so-to-speak). I assume others also must first acknowledge their guilt and repent of their sins prior to actually feeling forgiveness and it's joy. But maybe I'm wrong and there are rocks (men) out there that skip right past acknowledging their sins and immediately get forgiveness, IDK. Knid of doubt it.

Is it not necessary to know how to walk until you can learn to run?

What does HEAR mean in the Greek?
The person HEARS the word with joy.
Does it mean auricle hearing?
NO. You and I both know it means hearing with our mind and heart. Hearing --- to absorb into.

Actually, yes it means acoustics.

Well now this is Theology (study) of what Jesus actually said in the Text. I love it. Although I must say, the Text prohibits your answer to my question from being correct.

"He fell away" and "He does not have a root in himself" are Jesus' use of personal pronouns. In my list of possible answers, you picked three items (joy, salvation, plant; two of which are not even mentioned in the Text) that are NOT "he" (the man, the rock) and avoided picking the only one that does match the Text.

But as for the Greek word Jesus did use (HEARS), does it mean absorbed/received into the mind/heart??? It can, sometimes. How about here???

Matthew 13:20-21 And what was sown on the rocky ground—this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy. But he does not have a root in himself, but lasts only a little while, and when affliction or persecution happens because of the word, immediately he falls away.​

Transliteration: akouó
Phonetic Spelling: (ak-oo'-o)
Short Definition: I hear, listen
Definition: I hear, listen, comprehend by hearing; pass: is heard, reported.

It's where we get our English word acoustic from.

I submit (and have Biblically defended already) this subject you bring up is precisely the point of the parable. Bravo!

But Why? Jesus says it's about them "hearing" but not "understanding"! The disciples ask Him the purpose of His use of parables precisely concerning this parable of the sower. What does He say???

Matthew 13:14 and with reference to them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says, “You will listen carefully and will never understand, and you will look closely and will never perceive.​

There is one man (and only one) mentioned in this parable by Jesus that hears the word and understood it! I notice my defense;

Matthew 13:23 But what was sown on the good soil—this is the one who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces, this one a hundred times as much, and this one sixty, and this one thirty.”​

Lots of people hear the word of God but never comprehend/understand it. Take the Jewish High Priest of Jesus' day, for example. Some of their hearts were rock hard and they had no (zero) chance of accepting the seeds' root into them.

If one "hears" in Greek, it means he has also understood it and accepted it.

No it doesn't. Hearing can lead to acceptance if what's heard is understood. But they are three different words for a reason. Notice, if what you just said were true, it would directly contradict Jesus statement in Matt 13:14.

Some people can hear God's word and hear it again and hear it again and never understand it much less accept it. A shame really but, true.

Take John 10:28, for example;

John 10:29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can seize them from the Father’s hand.​

I know people that "hear" Jesus' words that the Father is "greater than all and no one can seize them" yet turn right around and claim Jesus said 'no one else can seize them'. Odd, really.

Almost as odd (to me anyway) as claiming Jesus said that a 'plant' lost 'salvation' and joy when hearing Jesus say that the man (the rock) was temporary and "he fell away".

 

[FreeGrace]

The Word of God causes EVERYTHING to happen and to come to be.

No, not at all. That would mean God directly causes evil. Is that your claim?

There is no scripture necessary.

Of course it is necessary. Otherwise, people could get away with saying ANYTHING at all.

But, as they say, the proof is in the pudding. If one's claims are true, meaning biblical, there WILL BE verses that say what the claimer is claiming.

 

[WIP]

Okay, I'm closing this thread for cleanup.

 

[WIP]

Because I can't think of a better way to put this, let's discuss this topic in fair play. There's too much grand-standing with the intention of gaining the upper hand against the opposition. This isn't a contest to see who is the better debater and it is certainly not about bringing glory to ourselves by winning the argument.

 

[Nathan]

I assumed you would answer pretty much as you did.


No. But while we continue to discuss things not in this Text, do you know any unbelievers who experience the joyous outcome of their re-birth without first acknowledging their sins and their desperate need of salvation? I don't. I didn't feel any joy without first acknowledging my guilt (cut to the quick, so-to-speak). I assume others also must first acknowledge their guilt and repent of their sins prior to actually feeling forgiveness and it's joy. But maybe I'm wrong and there are rocks (men) out there that skip right past acknowledging their sins and immediately get forgiveness, IDK. Knid of doubt it.

Is it not necessary to know how to walk until you can learn to run?


Actually, yes it means acoustics.

Well now this is Theology (study) of what Jesus actually said in the Text. I love it. Although I must say, the Text prohibits your answer to my question from being correct.

"He fell away" and "He does not have a root in himself" are Jesus' use of personal pronouns. In my list of possible answers, you picked three items (joy, salvation, plant; two of which are not even mentioned in the Text) that are NOT "he" (the man, the rock) and avoided picking the only one that does match the Text.

But as for the Greek word Jesus did use (HEARS), does it mean absorbed/received into the mind/heart??? It can, sometimes. How about here???

Matthew 13:20-21 And what was sown on the rocky ground—this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy. But he does not have a root in himself, but lasts only a little while, and when affliction or persecution happens because of the word, immediately he falls away.

Transliteration: akouó
Phonetic Spelling: (ak-oo'-o)
Short Definition: I hear, listen
Definition: I hear, listen, comprehend by hearing; pass: is heard, reported.

It's where we get our English word acoustic from.

I submit (and have Biblically defended already) this subject you bring up is precisely the point of the parable. Bravo!

But Why? Jesus says it's about them "hearing" but not "understanding"! The disciples ask Him the purpose of His use of parables precisely concerning this parable of the sower. What does He say???

Matthew 13:14 and with reference to them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says, “You will listen carefully and will never understand, and you will look closely and will never perceive.

There is one man (and only one) mentioned in this parable by Jesus that hears the word and understood it! I notice my defense;

Matthew 13:23 But what was sown on the good soil—this is the one who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces, this one a hundred times as much, and this one sixty, and this one thirty.”

Lots of people hear the word of God but never comprehend/understand it. Take the Jewish High Priest of Jesus' day, for example. Some of their hearts were rock hard and they had no (zero) chance of accepting the seeds' root into them.


No it doesn't. Hearing can lead to acceptance if what's heard is understood. But they are three different words for a reason. Notice, if what you just said were true, it would directly contradict Jesus statement in Matt 13:14.

Some people can hear God's word and hear it again and hear it again and never understand it much less accept it. A shame really but, true.

Take John 10:28, for example;

John 10:29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can seize them from the Father’s hand.

I know people that "hear" Jesus' words that the Father is "greater than all and no one can seize them" yet turn right around and claim Jesus said 'no one else can seize them'. Odd, really.

Almost as odd (to me anyway) as claiming Jesus said that a 'plant' lost 'salvation' and joy when hearing Jesus say that the man (the rock) was temporary and "he fell away".

One major issue is, no where in the NT(or even OT), is understanding a basis for salvation. Grace through faith is how salvation is brought to us. We do not have to understand it, although understanding it keeps us from falling, but that understanding comes from God.

To require a person to understand salvation before it is given is putting the ability of righteousness on the human - not God. With God its the opposite, its believing Him - without understanding. The understanding comes later.

Mat 18:1-4
At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

I highly doubt the child that Jesus called to himself had a lick of understanding about the Gospel.

First faith, then understanding.

Luk 10:21-22
In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”

 

[chessman]

One major issue is, no where in the NT(or even OT), is understanding a basis for salvation

Sure it is.
1) I already showed you where the famous John 3:16 (which you claimed neglected understanding) is a part of Jesus' answer to Nicodemus precisely about his understanding (or lack thereof) of how to be born again.

2) The parable of the sower is about understanding (or lack thereof), as I showed.

3) 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, in order that we may know the one who is true, and we are in the one who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This one is the true God and eternal life.

Etc.

To require a person to understand salvation before it is given is putting the ability of righteousness on the human

No it's not. Asked and answered already. It is God that gives us (some that is) understanding.

With God its the opposite, its believing Him -

The opposite of understanding is misunderstanding. The opposite of belief is unbelief. People believe A yet misunderstand A all the time.

Take a statement like;
"no where in the NT(or even OT), is understanding a basis for salvation"; I understand your statement, but I do not believe it.

I highly doubt the child that Jesus called to himself had a lick of understanding about the Gospel.

Have you had any kids? Did they understand who you were (their father) versus their mother or a stranger???

No need to answer.

John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. ​

Vs

Now this is eternal life: that they know believe you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

I see very little difference. But, a difference none the less.

BTW, I am on travel for 3+ weeks without internet service. This will be my last post for a while.

 

[Nathan]

Sure it is.
1) I already showed you where the famous John 3:16 (which you claimed neglected understanding) is a part of Jesus' answer to Nicodemus precisely about his understanding (or lack thereof) of how to be born again.

2) The parable of the sower is about understanding (or lack thereof), as I showed.

3) 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, in order that we may know the one who is true, and we are in the one who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This one is the true God and eternal life.

Etc.


No it's not. Asked and answered already. It is God that gives us (some that is) understanding.


The opposite of understanding is misunderstanding. The opposite of belief is unbelief. People believe A yet misunderstand A all the time.

Take a statement like;
"no where in the NT(or even OT), is understanding a basis for salvation"; I understand your statement, but I do not believe it.


Have you had any kids? Did they understand who you were (their father) versus their mother or a stranger???

No need to answer.

John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. ​

Vs

Now this is eternal life: that they know believe you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

I see very little difference. But, a difference none the less.

BTW, I am on travel for 3+ weeks without internet service. This will be my last post for a while.

Actually, there are many children who look to whoever shows them love as a parent. I would say that it is not till they reach the age of puberty that they start to understand why we are their parents. Children who are adopted never question that the one adopting them are their parents, they just are glad to know someone loves them that much.

You actually did not prove someone has to understand in order to be saved. That still remains a works based salvation. The examples you gave are way out of context for saying someone has to believe and understand in order to be saved.

Understanding does come. But to be first united with Christ it is not needed. No one has to understand to enter the kingdom.

This is why those who have understood(known) the way of righteousness, who later depart, are said to have been better off not knowing.

2 Peter 2
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."

They would have been better off never coming to know Christ than to have known Him and leave.

 

[MarkT]

What does the Bible say about having salvation?
Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31 - They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.


I certainly believe what Jesus said about it:
Luke 8:12 - Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. iow, if they did believe, they would be saved.
Luke 8:13 - Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

So, Jesus taught that those who believe ARE SAVED. So, yes, I believe the rocky soil was saved. Jesus said as much.

For those who think the second soil was not saved, why not? What text would lead that one to that conclusion?

He said they have no root. No root meaning they can not receive his teachings: The living water. How are they going to drink the living water if they have no root? Sure they might believe Jesus was the Christ, but they can not receive his teachings. They believe for a while, but when they are tested, they fall away. They hear but they do not understand; they have no depth of understanding. It follows from the first soil that are not saved. They only believe for a while. They are not saved.

Like Jesus said, "If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned." John 15:6

 

[MarkT]

It's not a matter of my opinion about Greek words. We have lexicons for understanding what Greek words mean.

This is the definition of 'perish' from John 3:16 -
NT:622 apollumi (ap-ol'-loo-mee); from NT:575 and the base of NT:3639; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively:

KJV - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

So, in the context of John 3:16, to "die" or "perish" is contrasted with possessing eternal life. So it refers to spiritual death, or eternal separation from God. Which is why the Bible uses the "second death" for the lake of fire.

Are you using a OSAS dictionary?

We have the Bible translated into English for us so we can read the Bible and understand and know the truth.

Structures are destroyed. Living things die. So Isaiah 1:28 says they shall be destroyed and consumed, not just die. As Jesus said,
Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Luke 8:12 - Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. iow, if they did believe, they would be saved.
Luke 8:13 - Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

So, Jesus taught that those who believe ARE SAVED. So, yes, I believe the rocky soil was saved. Jesus said as much."

He said they have no root. No root meaning they can not receive his teachings: The living water. How are they going to drink the living water if they have no root?

This seems to be a mix and match argument. There was no mention of "living water" in the parable. So there's no way to presume that's what Jesus had in mind.

His point was that some will "believe for a while", which shows that the second soil DID "receive His teachings", certainly enough to believe His promises. However, because of trials/temptations, they ceased to believe. Yet, Jesus was clear in v.12 about the fact that those who believe ARE SAVED. Therefore, the second soil WAS SAVED. They believed, albeit "for a while".

Sure they might believe Jesus was the Christ, but they can not receive his teachings.

It seems that's a problem among evangelicals to this day. Just look at all the various views, many of them polar opposites to each other.

They believe for a while, but when they are tested, they fall away. They hear but they do not understand; they have no depth of understanding. It follows from the first soil that are not saved.

No, because Jesus said they believed, they ARE SAVED.

They only believe for a while. They are not saved.

What text says that believing for a while results in not being saved?

Like Jesus said, "If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned." John 15:6

Well, this isn't one of them. This farming metaphor is about service or usefulness. And "abiding" cannot in any sense be understood as leaving salvation.

Why not? Because Paul taught that those "having believed" (in a point in time) ARE MARKED IN HIM WITH A SEAL, which is the Holy Spirit. He went on to say the Spirit is a deposit GUARANTEEING OUR INHERITANCE FOR THE DAY OF REDEMPTION.

I am compelled to capitalize these words because it seems they are not being considered in this discussion.

What Paul taught in Eph 1:13,14 is eternal security. We're marked IN HIM with the Holy Spirit Himself, who Jesus promised "will be with us FOREVER". Does eternity come to mind from this? It sure does for me.

Jesus' promise in John 10:28 is UNCONDITIONAL for recipients of eternal life.

IOW, once eternal life is received, the guaranteed result is NEVER PERISHING.

So, the only discussion (argument) left is WHEN one receives eternal life. i recall one poster who claimed the gift of eternal life is only given at the end of one's life. But if that were true, then Jesus' promise would be rather meaningless.

but it takes on GREAT MEANING if the gift is given at the beginning of one's saved state. It guarantees eternal security.

 

[FreeGrace]

Are you using a OSAS dictionary?

Never heard of such a thing.

We have the Bible translated into English for us so we can read the Bible and understand and know the truth.

We also have Greek lexicons and grammar texts so we can understand even better what the writers of Scripture were saying and meaning.

Structures are destroyed.

By bombs, for one.

Living things die.

By bullets, for another.

So Isaiah 1:28 says they shall be destroyed and consumed, not just die. As Jesus said,
Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Sorry, but I'm not seeing the connection of this with the discussion.

Was Jesus' promise to recipients in John 10:28 unconditional or conditional?

If conditional, please list it or them. Thanks.

 

[GodsGrace]

BTW FreeGrace

One of my posts got deleted yesterday because I told you that you should study the story of Adam.
I was told that this was sarcastic and demeaning.

I'd like you to know that I did not mean it in that way.
I meant it SERIOUSLY and SINCERELY.

You do not seem to know the story of Adam and Eve very well and without this fundamental understanding of man and sin, youi will always have problems understanding the New Testament.

For instance:

1. You said that Adam did not need saving.
Do you know what the atonement is? Just asking.
WHY did Jesus have to die for us? Couldn't God just have forgiven our sins? He's God, He could do anything.
So WHAT WAS the atonement for?

If you could come to understand this, you will also understand why Adam took a bite of the apple.

2. You brought up 1 Timothy 2:14 about Eve having been the one deceived.

So? SHE was the one deceived by satan and then tempted Adam.
But WHO broke Covenant with God?
Do you know about the Edenic Covenant? Just asking.
With whom was it established? With Eve?
NO: It was made between God and Adam.
If you notice, sin came into the world after ADAM ate the forbidden fruit, NOT after Eve ate it.
Genesis 3:7b see also
Romans 5:12

It is also good to study this Covenant.

So, you see, I meant it sincerely.