Jesus promise: Recipients of eternal life will never perish!

[MarkT]

Never heard of such a thing.


We also have Greek lexicons and grammar texts so we can understand even better what the writers of Scripture were saying and meaning.


By bombs, for one.


By bullets, for another.


Sorry, but I'm not seeing the connection of this with the discussion.

Was Jesus' promise to recipients in John 10:28 unconditional or conditional?

If conditional, please list it or them. Thanks.

What about the root? Jesus said they have no root. The root is the persistent underground part of a plant that conveys water and nourishment to the rest of the plant via branches and veins. What happens to a plant if it gets no water? It withers and eventually it dies. Consider what Jesus said,
John 15:6
If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.John 15:6

So the man believes for a while, but because he has no root or depth of soil, eventually he dies. And as to the question of salvation, he is not saved, as Jesus said the branches are burned.

 

[FreeGrace]

BTW FreeGrace

One of my posts got deleted yesterday because I told you that you should study the story of Adam.
I was told that this was sarcastic and demeaning.

I'd like you to know that I did not mean it in that way.
I meant it SERIOUSLY and SINCERELY.

I accept your explanation. I have no ill will towards you or anyone else here. But that doesn't mean I cannot very strongly disagree with views that are in conflict with some very clear statements from Jesus, Paul, Peter.

You do not seem to know the story of Adam and Eve very well and without this fundamental understanding of man and sin, youi will always have problems understanding the New Testament.

It appears to me that I'm not the one who lacks understanding.

For instance:

1. You said that Adam did not need saving.
Do you know what the atonement is? Just asking.

This is a good example of who lacks understanding. When did Adam need atonement; before or after he sinned?

WHY did Jesus have to die for us?

Because all humans are under sin (Rom 3:9) and all have sinned (Rom 3:23).

Couldn't God just have forgiven our sins? He's God, He could do anything.

Please send this question to God. It's His plan. I'm not about to second guess His plans.

So WHAT WAS the atonement for?

Adam's SIN. Which didn't occur at his creation, but sometime later. Again, he needed NO ATONEMENT at creation.

I'm really surprised that anyone would think Adam needed saving when he was created. He was created IN FELLOWSHIP with God.

If you could come to understand this, you will also understand why Adam took a bite of the apple.

He took the bite because he made a decision to rebel against God's only restriction. He needed NO SALVATION before that bite.

And you've not proven otherwise.

2. You brought up 1 Timothy 2:14 about Eve having been the one deceived.

So? SHE was the one deceived by satan and then tempted Adam.
But WHO broke Covenant with God?
Do you know about the Edenic Covenant? Just asking.
With whom was it established? With Eve?
NO: It was made between God and Adam.
If you notice, sin came into the world after ADAM ate the forbidden fruit, NOT after Eve ate it.
Genesis 3:7b see also
Romans 5:12

It is also good to study this Covenant.

So, you see, I meant it sincerely.

You've shown a great deal of misunderstanding about Adam and Eve. While Eve was deceived, yes, Adam was held responsible because God put him in charge.

But it seems you're just missing the whole point.

But what is clear is that the REASON Christ had to die for our sins was because Adam sinned.

Adam did not need salvation before he sinned. I don't know why that isn't being understood.

 

[FreeGrace]

What about the root? Jesus said they have no root.

What about it? The point Jesus made was that the second soil believed. They were saved.

The root is the persistent underground part of a plant that conveys water and nourishment to the rest of the plant via branches and veins. What happens to a plant if it gets no water? It withers and eventually it dies.

Let's not take a parable so much farther than what Jesus intended. He wasn't speaking technically, but to make a simple point.

Consider what Jesus said,
John 15:6
If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.John 15:6

Jesus was speaking of fellowship in the word "abide".

So the man believes for a while, but because he has no root or depth of soil, eventually he dies.

That was never the point of Jesus. He said nothing of dying. His point was about FRUIT PRODUCTION.

And as to the question of salvation, he is not saved, as Jesus said the branches are burned.

Not in His parable of the soils. Mixing and matching verses out of context is a dangerous thing. It leads to much false doctrine.
The parable stands on its own. Jesus' point was about fruit production, or the lack thereof.

Do you agree that when a believer ceases to believe, he ceases to produce fruit?

That was Jesus' point.

What was Jesus' point about His choosing of His 11 disciples, and by extension, us who believe?

John 11 -
7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

v.7 is about being in fellowship, in order for our prayers to be answered.

16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.

So, Jesus' point in the parable of the soils is to 'go and bear fruit'. Not become discouraged (lack of faith) by testing/temptations, or distractions (3rd soil), which leads to failure to produce fruit.

 

[Nathan]

Mat 24:11-13
And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Luk 8:13
And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.

Heb 10:35-39
Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised.
For,
“Yet a little while,
and the coming one will come and will not delay;
but my righteous one shall live by faith,
and if he shrinks back,
my soul has no pleasure in him.”
But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.

2Th 2:9-12
The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2Pe 2:1-3
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

2Pe 3:17
You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.
But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

 

[MarkT]

What about it? The point Jesus made was that the second soil believed. They were saved.


Let's not take a parable so much farther than what Jesus intended. He wasn't speaking technically, but to make a simple point.


Jesus was speaking of fellowship in the word "abide".


That was never the point of Jesus. He said nothing of dying. His point was about FRUIT PRODUCTION.


Not in His parable of the soils. Mixing and matching verses out of context is a dangerous thing. It leads to much false doctrine.
The parable stands on its own. Jesus' point was about fruit production, or the lack thereof.

Do you agree that when a believer ceases to believe, he ceases to produce fruit?

That was Jesus' point.

What was Jesus' point about His choosing of His 11 disciples, and by extension, us who believe?

John 11 -
7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

v.7 is about being in fellowship, in order for our prayers to be answered.

16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.

So, Jesus' point in the parable of the soils is to 'go and bear fruit'. Not become discouraged (lack of faith) by testing/temptations, or distractions (3rd soil), which leads to failure to produce fruit.

What would a plant do if it had no root? The root extracts the nutrients necessary for life, and these nutrients are carried by water to the branches and the leaves. Of course a plant dies if it doesn't receive water. What would a plant do without water? Of course a dead plant does not produce fruit. Consider what Jesus said, "Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Mt. 3:10

So the point is not that the man believed for a while as you say. The point is he believes for a while but he has no root, so when he is tested he falls away, and eventually he dies.

Jesus said, "every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."

 

[FreeGrace]

What would a plant do if it had no root?

Jesus wasn't teaching horticulture when He gave the parable of the soils. His point was about fruit production, not salvation. So it doesn't matter what any plants "does". They are to bear fruit. And Jesus gave several reasons why some don't.

So the point is not that the man believed for a while as you say.

Yes, that was one of His points.

The point is he believes for a while but he has no root, so when he is tested he falls away, and eventually he dies.

This takes the parable much farther than Jesus did. It's always dangerous to take any parable beyond it point.

None of the parable is about dying. It's all about why some soils don't produce fruit.

Jesus said, "every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."

So? Not in the parable of the soil, He didn't say that. No trees in the parable of the SOILS.

Let's keep Jesus' parables and other things He said in their proper context, ok?

This is an example of fish-mash theology. Finding verses with same or similar words and assuming they are talking about the same thing or related things.

 

[WIP]

Consider what Jesus said, "Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Mt. 3:10

You mean, they are killed?

 

[GodsGrace]

I accept your explanation. I have no ill will towards you or anyone else here. But that doesn't mean I cannot very strongly disagree with views that are in conflict with some very clear statements from Jesus, Paul, Peter.


It appears to me that I'm not the one who lacks understanding.


This is a good example of who lacks understanding. When did Adam need atonement; before or after he sinned?


Because all humans are under sin (Rom 3:9) and all have sinned (Rom 3:23).


Please send this question to God. It's His plan. I'm not about to second guess His plans.


Adam's SIN. Which didn't occur at his creation, but sometime later. Again, he needed NO ATONEMENT at creation.

I'm really surprised that anyone would think Adam needed saving when he was created. He was created IN FELLOWSHIP with God.


He took the bite because he made a decision to rebel against God's only restriction. He needed NO SALVATION before that bite.

And you've not proven otherwise.


You've shown a great deal of misunderstanding about Adam and Eve. While Eve was deceived, yes, Adam was held responsible because God put him in charge.

But it seems you're just missing the whole point.

But what is clear is that the REASON Christ had to die for our sins was because Adam sinned.

Adam did not need salvation before he sinned. I don't know why that isn't being understood.

The atonement at the fall has to do with the state of Adam's soul

HE WAS SAVED.
HE BECAME LOST.

YOU insist that one can NOT become lost after being saved.
YOU asked for a sample.

THIS IS A PERFECT SAMPLE.

 

[GodsGrace]

I accept your explanation. I have no ill will towards you or anyone else here. But that doesn't mean I cannot very strongly disagree with views that are in conflict with some very clear statements from Jesus, Paul, Peter.


It appears to me that I'm not the one who lacks understanding.


This is a good example of who lacks understanding. When did Adam need atonement; before or after he sinned?


Because all humans are under sin (Rom 3:9) and all have sinned (Rom 3:23).


Please send this question to God. It's His plan. I'm not about to second guess His plans.


Adam's SIN. Which didn't occur at his creation, but sometime later. Again, he needed NO ATONEMENT at creation.

I'm really surprised that anyone would think Adam needed saving when he was created. He was created IN FELLOWSHIP with God.


He took the bite because he made a decision to rebel against God's only restriction. He needed NO SALVATION before that bite.

And you've not proven otherwise.


You've shown a great deal of misunderstanding about Adam and Eve. While Eve was deceived, yes, Adam was held responsible because God put him in charge.

But it seems you're just missing the whole point.

But what is clear is that the REASON Christ had to die for our sins was because Adam sinned.

Adam did not need salvation before he sinned. I don't know why that isn't being understood.

God put Adam in charge?
That's it?

You didn't address the covenant.

 

[FreeGrace]

The atonement at the fall has to do with the state of Adam's soul

HE WAS SAVED.
HE BECAME LOST.

Only the 2nd sentence is correct. Adam was NOT saved before he fell. He didn't need it. I asked a lot of questions about this that weren't answered.

YOU insist that one can NOT become lost after being saved.

I never insisted any such silly thing. But since your charge seems sincere, please find this so-called insistence of mine and prove that I said such a thing.

 

[FreeGrace]

God put Adam in charge?
That's it?

Of the Garden, yes.

You didn't address the covenant.

I spoke of the atonement. Which was needed after Adam sinned and his sin needed to be atoned for.

Which of the 7 covenants in the Bible are you referring to?

 

[GodsGrace]

Of the Garden, yes.


I spoke of the atonement. Which was needed after Adam sinned and his sin needed to be atoned for.

Which of the 7 covenants in the Bible are you referring to?

I stated the covenant.
Do you even read what I write??
There are more than 7 covenants.
I taught the 7 major covenants to adults.
I cannot remember anymore why you ask.

It's not important at this point.

P.S. If you're familiar with the covenants, you should know which one was made between God and Adam. (NOT Eve).

 

[MarkT]

You mean, they are killed?

They are cut down and burned. The axe is laid to the root of the trees so they will never see life again.

 

[Nathan]

They are cut down and burned. The axe is laid to the root of the trees so they will never see life again.

So do you believe they did have life before being cut down?

 

[MarkT]

Jesus wasn't teaching horticulture when He gave the parable of the soils. His point was about fruit production, not salvation. So it doesn't matter what any plants "does". They are to bear fruit. And Jesus gave several reasons why some don't.


Yes, that was one of His points.


This takes the parable much farther than Jesus did. It's always dangerous to take any parable beyond it point.

None of the parable is about dying. It's all about why some soils don't produce fruit.


So? Not in the parable of the soil, He didn't say that. No trees in the parable of the SOILS.

Let's keep Jesus' parables and other things He said in their proper context, ok?

This is an example of fish-mash theology. Finding verses with same or similar words and assuming they are talking about the same thing or related things.

That's right. He was not teaching horticulture. He was not teaching farming or agriculture either. You have a fine way of rejecting the truth. Jesus said the man has no root, and you say so what? I say if a man has no root, he can not receive life. John 4:14 He believes for a while, but when he is tested he falls away. The good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. So those who believe for a while and then fall away are not good. They fall away because they can not accept/understand the word. They die because they get no water because they have no root.

 

[MarkT]

So do you believe they did have life before being cut down?

Of course. God made them, and he gave them life.

 

[Nathan]

That's right. He was not teaching horticulture. He was not teaching farming or agriculture either. You have a fine way of rejecting the truth. Jesus said the man has no root, and you say so what? I say if a man has no root, he can not receive life. John 4:14 He believes for a while, but when he is tested he falls away. The good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. So those who believe for a while and then fall away are not good. They fall away because they can not accept/understand the word. They die because they get no water because they have no root.

Jesus said they did accept the word, and they fell away because they were not able to endure - the word they accepted, and believed, did not go very deep in them.

During times of testing, there was not much root in them - enough to provide life - but not enough to withstand trials. The seed produced life - just never grew long enough to produce fruit.

This is important to know. There are so many believers who have accepted and believed the word with joy. Yet they think that is all and withstand the work of God in their lives - they have semi hard hearts.

We should help them see that the word of God needs to go deeper in their hearts for those times of testing. Jesus never said a heart could not change.

 

[MarkT]

Jesus said they did accept the word, and they fell away because they were not able to endure - the word they accepted, and believed, did not go very deep in them.

During times of testing, there was not much root in them - enough to provide life - but not enough to withstand trials. The seed produced life - just never grew long enough to produce fruit.

This is important to know. There are so many believers who have accepted and believed the word with joy. Yet they think that is all and withstand the work of God in their lives - they have semi hard hearts.

We should help them see that the word of God needs to go deeper in their hearts for those times of testing. Jesus never said a heart could not change.

He said when they hear the word, they receive it with joy; but these have no root.

The root can't go any deeper because it's not good soil. There is no depth of soil. So when they spring up, they have no root. So when the sun comes up they wither because they can't get moisture/ water.

Here's the same teaching in Luke. "And some fell on the rock; and as it grew up, it withered away, because it had no moisture. Luke 8:6 Then he goes on to explain the teaching, "And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy; but these have no root, they believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

And the same teaching in Matthew - Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they had not much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil, 6 but when the sun rose they were scorched; and since they had no root they withered away. Mt. 13:5-6

Matthew 13:23
As for what was sown on good soil, this is he who hears the word and understands it;

It's all about understanding the word of God. The ones who fall away have no depth of understanding. They fall away because hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. Mt. 13:13

 

[Nathan]

He said when they hear the word, they receive it with joy; but these have no root.

The root can't go any deeper because it's not good soil. There is no depth of soil. So when they spring up, they have no root. So when the sun comes up they wither because they can't get moisture/ water.

Here's the same teaching in Luke. "And some fell on the rock; and as it grew up, it withered away, because it had no moisture. Luke 8:6 Then he goes on to explain the teaching, "And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy; but these have no root, they believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

And the same teaching in Matthew - Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they had not much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil, 6 but when the sun rose they were scorched; and since they had no root they withered away. Mt. 13:5-6

Matthew 13:23
As for what was sown on good soil, this is he who hears the word and understands it;

It's all about understanding the word of God. The ones who fall away have no depth of understanding. They fall away because hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. Mt. 13:13

Romans 10:17 (ESV)
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

The seed is the word of God, the soil is the persons heart. Combined they produce faith. Faith is the "plant" that comes up - and then withers away because the human heart does not have much depth for truth to accumulate.

The point is, they had the word of God, they had received it, they had faith - they had life. They simply could not endure because there was not enough depth of heart to bear the truth.

Romans 15:4 (ESV)
For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

It's impossible to know a parable apart from being given the ability. Once the ability is given, you can know.

Luke 8:10 (ESV)
he said, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that 'seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.'

 

[Nathan]

Matthew 7
15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit.
18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Everyone has fruit. Fruit of one with eternal life is life giving. Fruit of one who is dead will be rotten.

Some can say good fruit can be made if a person is not apart of the tree/vine. Maybe bad fruit.....