Jesus promise: Recipients of eternal life will never perish!

[MarkT]

Romans 10:17 (ESV)
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

The seed is the word of God, the soil is the persons heart. Combined they produce faith. Faith is the "plant" that comes up - and then withers away because the human heart does not have much depth for truth to accumulate.

The point is, they had the word of God, they had received it, they had faith - they had life. They simply could not endure because there was not enough depth of heart to bear the truth.

Romans 15:4 (ESV)
For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

It's impossible to know a parable apart from being given the ability. Once the ability is given, you can know.

Luke 8:10 (ESV)
he said, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that 'seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.'

It's the person who hears the word, and it's the person who receives the word. It's also the person who falls away. So metaphorically speaking, we are his seed and his plants. Our soul thirsts for God as for water

Psalm 63:1
O God, thou art my God, I seek thee, my soul thirsts for thee; my flesh faints for thee, as in a dry and weary land where no water is.

Consider the purpose of the parable. Jesus said take heed how you hear.
"Take heed then how you hear; for to him who has will more be given, and from him who has not, even what he thinks that he has will be taken away.” Luke 8:18
ie. this is what happens. So if a man's heart is rocky ground, he believes for a while, but he has no root and no depth of understanding, and in time of temptation, he falls away.

I believe the man has life, but then his life is taken away. ie. he withers. As Isaiah said, "Scarcely are they planted, scarcely sown, scarcely has their stem taken root in the earth, when he blows upon them, and they wither, and the tempest carries them off like stubble." Isa. 40:24

 

[MarkT]

That is why we DON'T take His metaphors literally.

What does that mean? We are supposed to understand his teachings even if he did use figures. There is no reason to wave his teachings off as agricultural, horticultural, or farming or fruit production.

 

[Nathan]

It's the person who hears the word, and it's the person who receives the word. It's also the person who falls away. So metaphorically speaking, we are his seed and his plants. Our soul thirsts for God as for water

Psalm 63:1
O God, thou art my God, I seek thee, my soul thirsts for thee; my flesh faints for thee, as in a dry and weary land where no water is.

Consider the purpose of the parable. Jesus said take heed how you hear.
"Take heed then how you hear; for to him who has will more be given, and from him who has not, even what he thinks that he has will be taken away.” Luke 8:18 More is given to those who have in terms of wisdom, knowledge and understanding.
ie. this is what happens. So if a man's heart is rocky ground, he believes for a while, but he has no root and no depth of understanding, and in time of temptation, he falls away.

I believe the man has life, but then his life is taken away. ie. he withers. As Isaiah said, "Scarcely are they planted, scarcely sown, scarcely has their stem taken root in the earth, when he blows upon them, and they wither, and the tempest carries them off like stubble." Isa. 40:24

I agree with your last paragraph, except the life is not taken away - it dies. The faith in a person dies - separated from the truth. Faith can only come from the word of God, separate the truth of God from that faith and it dies.

2 Thessalonians 1
3 We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers, as is right, because your faith is growing abundantly, and the love of every one of you for one another is increasing.
4 Therefore we ourselves boast about you in the churches of God for your steadfastness and faith in all your persecutions and in the afflictions that you are enduring.

Luke 8:18 is directed toward the disciples, not toward the 'people' of the parable. It relates to understanding what God gives to those who love Him, not pertaining to the word of God(the seed) being planted by God in a persons heart.

We can't change the simple and direct explanation that Jesus gives - Himself stating - of what the parable meant. There are many other parables we can view one way or another, the one of the sower is set - and any change to it is changing the truth.

 

[eddif]

Romans 10:17 (ESV)
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

The seed is the word of God, the soil is the persons heart. Combined they produce faith. Faith is the "plant" that comes up - and then withers away because the human heart does not have much depth for truth to accumulate.

The point is, they had the word of God, they had received it, they had faith - they had life. They simply could not endure because there was not enough depth of heart to bear the truth.

Romans 15:4 (ESV)
For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

It's impossible to know a parable apart from being given the ability. Once the ability is given, you can know.

Luke 8:10 (ESV)
he said, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that 'seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.'

Be encouraged. Hang in there.

The word came in various ways
The word became flesh (Jesus)
The second Adam became a quickening spirit.
That which is in us is unique.

Redneck
eddif

 

[Nathan]

Be encouraged. Hang in there.

The word came in various ways
The word became flesh (Jesus)
The second Adam became a quickening spirit.
That which is in us is unique.

Redneck
eddif

 

[eddif]

I said this:
"That is why we DON'T take His metaphors literally."

Where is the word metaphor used in the Bible?

There is a physical literal: a type, shadow, allegory, parable using the physical.

There is a spiritual / physical reality (Jesus) who casts the shadows.

Romans 1:20 KJV
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

It appears to a Mississippi redneck that God showed hiself in creation. Hidden qualities revealed by his physical creation.

If anyone has a spiritual question, then God has an answer hidden in creation.

Redneck
eddif

 

[eddif]

Revelation 3:5 KJV
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Eternal as long as the book containes the name?

eddif

 

[FreeGrace]

Where is the word metaphor used in the Bible?

Obviously it isn't, but that didn't prevent our Lord from using them.

There is a physical literal: a type, shadow, allegory, parable using the physical.

There is a spiritual / physical reality (Jesus) who casts the shadows.

Which is why our Lord used metaphors.

Romans 1:20 KJV
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

It appears to a Mississippi redneck that God showed hiself in creation. Hidden qualities revealed by his physical creation.

If anyone has a spiritual question, then God has an answer hidden in creation.

Rom 1:0 doesn't say that.

 

[FreeGrace]

Revelation 3:5 KJV
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Eternal as long as the book containes the name?

eddif

No, eternal as in what Jesus promised recipients of His gift of eternal life: they will NEVER perish. That kind of eternal.

While "metaphor" the word isn't found in the Bible, it is used quite often. As well, while the word "litotes" isn't found in the Bible, it is also used quite often.

Here is a definition with an example: ironical understatement in which an affirmative is expressed by the negative of its contrary (e.g., you won't be sorry, meaning you'll be glad).

So, Rev 3:5 doesn't mean that some will be blotted out of the book of life.

While saying "you won't be sorry" normally doesn't include the real meaning of "you'll be glad", John does include the real meaning by adding "I will confess his name before My father and before His angels".

Notice the subject is a person's NAME. And John gives us the contrast between blotting IT out of the book of life vs confessing IT before the Father.

John wasn't teaching loss of salvation.

Recall that John recorded Jesus' promise to recipients, that they will never perish.

So, once given eternal life, never to perish. That's eternal security.

 

[Nathan]

2 Timothy 2
1 But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty.
2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy,
3 heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good,
4 treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
5 having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.
6 For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions,
7 always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth.
8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the faith.
9 But they will not get very far, for their folly will be plain to all, as was that of those two men.
10 You, however, have followed my teaching, my conduct, my aim in life, my faith, my patience, my love, my steadfastness,
11 my persecutions and sufferings that happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, and at Lystra-which persecutions I endured; yet from them all the Lord rescued me.
12 Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,
13 while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.
14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it
15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Whats ironic is we know that some can, have, and will be blotted from the book.

Exodus 32
30 The next day Moses said to the people, "You have sinned a great sin. And now I will go up to the LORD; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin."
31 So Moses returned to the LORD and said, "Alas, this people has sinned a great sin. They have made for themselves gods of gold.
32 But now, if you will forgive their sin-but if not, please blot me out of your book that you have written."
33 But the LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against me, I will blot out of my book.

Yet presumptuously some will deny the words of the very book they seek to make life out of.

Hebrews 10
26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.

 

[FreeGrace]

Whats ironic is we know that some can, have, and will be blotted from the book.

Exodus 32
30 The next day Moses said to the people, "You have sinned a great sin. And now I will go up to the LORD; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin."
31 So Moses returned to the LORD and said, "Alas, this people has sinned a great sin. They have made for themselves gods of gold.
32 But now, if you will forgive their sin-but if not, please blot me out of your book that you have written."
33 But the LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against me, I will blot out of my book.

Yet presumptuously some will deny the words of the very book they seek to make life out of.

Rather, this is an example of misunderstanding what Moses said and building a false doctrine from it.

Moses was asking to not be blotted out of the book. Does that prove that he could be? No. Any more than the prodigal, who was prepared to ask for demotion from son to hired hand, could be demoted from sonship.

What is undeniable is that a child REMAINS FOREVER the child of their parents. That relationship cannot be reversed or undone.

Same in the spiritual sense. Once a child of God, always a child of God.

 

[MarkT]

I agree with your last paragraph, except the life is not taken away - it dies. The faith in a person dies - separated from the truth. Faith can only come from the word of God, separate the truth of God from that faith and it dies.

2 Thessalonians 1
3 We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers, as is right, because your faith is growing abundantly, and the love of every one of you for one another is increasing.
4 Therefore we ourselves boast about you in the churches of God for your steadfastness and faith in all your persecutions and in the afflictions that you are enduring.

Luke 8:18 is directed toward the disciples, not toward the 'people' of the parable. It relates to understanding what God gives to those who love Him, not pertaining to the word of God(the seed) being planted by God in a persons heart.

We can't change the simple and direct explanation that Jesus gives - Himself stating - of what the parable meant. There are many other parables we can view one way or another, the one of the sower is set - and any change to it is changing the truth.

I would say knowledge, not faith. This is knowledge that you store up. Pr. 2:1-6 So we have the parable and the teaching. Jesus explained the parable to his disciples saying to them, "to you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom." Luke 8:10

He was not speaking figuratively. However he was speaking to the spirit, for it is the spirit in a man that makes him understand.
Job 32:8
But it is the spirit in a man, the breath of the Almighty, that makes him understand.

So we are the tree. Or perhaps the tree is within us. I'm kind of leaning towards the spirit being the tree. Nevertheless, we are the ones who bear fruit, therefore we are God's planting.

The crowd heard moisture. But I say the moisture is the word of God. That is my understanding. So the ones on the rock are those who when they hear the word, they receive it with joy; but these have no root which means when the sun comes out they perish because they have no water; they have no knowledge or depth of understanding the word; they have nothing to hold on to. So they believe for a while, but when they are tested they fall away.

Luke 8:18 says take care how you hear, which means understand. Take care how you understand. To him who has, more will be given. I take it to mean more knowledge and understanding will be given to those who have knowledge and understanding. As the true proverb says,
Proverbs 2:6
For the Lord gives wisdom; from his mouth come knowledge and understanding;

 

[Nathan]

Rather, this is an example of misunderstanding what Moses said and building a false doctrine from it.

Moses was asking to not be blotted out of the book. Does that prove that he could be? No. Any more than the prodigal, who was prepared to ask for demotion from son to hired hand, could be demoted from sonship.

What is undeniable is that a child REMAINS FOREVER the child of their parents. That relationship cannot be reversed or undone.

Same in the spiritual sense. Once a child of God, always a child of God.

Read verse 33 again, very carefully.

 

[eddif]

Job 32:8 has been mentioned as a source of understanding.

Elihu is accepted by many as a very good source.
Can anyone show me where God accepts or recgonizes Elihu in a positive manner?

Keep in mind Elihu condemns Job as self righteous when God has spoken that Job has spoken truth, and the friends have not. Elihu is in agreement with the friends in some matters.

No one seems to recognize Elihu.

eddif

 

[gr8grace3]

No, eternal as in what Jesus promised recipients of His gift of eternal life: they will NEVER perish. That kind of eternal.

While "metaphor" the word isn't found in the Bible, it is used quite often. As well, while the word "litotes" isn't found in the Bible, it is also used quite often.

Here is a definition with an example: ironical understatement in which an affirmative is expressed by the negative of its contrary (e.g., you won't be sorry, meaning you'll be glad).

So, Rev 3:5 doesn't mean that some will be blotted out of the book of life.

While saying "you won't be sorry" normally doesn't include the real meaning of "you'll be glad", John does include the real meaning by adding "I will confess his name before My father and before His angels".

Notice the subject is a person's NAME. And John gives us the contrast between blotting IT out of the book of life vs confessing IT before the Father.

John wasn't teaching loss of salvation.

Recall that John recorded Jesus' promise to recipients, that they will never perish.

So, once given eternal life, never to perish. That's eternal security.

Excellent! Lots of things in this post that dig a bit deeper................in His truth.

If we WANT the truth.......He WILL give it to us.

 

[Nathan]

I said this:
"Rather, this is an example of misunderstanding what Moses said and building a false doctrine from it.

Moses was asking to not be blotted out of the book. Does that prove that he could be? No. Any more than the prodigal, who was prepared to ask for demotion from son to hired hand, could be demoted from sonship.

What is undeniable is that a child REMAINS FOREVER the child of their parents. That relationship cannot be reversed or undone.

Same in the spiritual sense. Once a child of God, always a child of God."

What chapter, what book? Please be a bit more clear when commanding others.

Couldn't help but notice that my entire post was not dealt with.

Oh, and along with clarifying your order, is there a point you're trying to make about this v.33?

If I don't know what your point is, what's the point of reading any verse?

Go back, to the original post you replied to, and read Exodus 32:33.

I did not 'deal' with your entire post because you replied to mine without reading the whole thing. Your speaking of Moses, I'm speaking of the ones who sinned against God - after He saved them.

 

[FreeGrace]

Go back, to the original post you replied to.....

This is what contributes to failed communication. If there is a specific post #, then just note it. If it's not remembered, then just forget it.

I have no idea what "original post" I "replied to".

 

[Nathan]

This is what contributes to failed communication. If there is a specific post #, then just note it. If it's not remembered, then just forget it.

I have no idea what "original post" I "replied to".

It's only failed because you are not interested in the conversation. This says a lot. I remember exactly what has been said and why. I even gave you the passage that your last post was in question about, yet you do not want to see.

2 Timothy 2
1 But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty.
2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy,
3 heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good,
4 treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
5 having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.
6 For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions,
7 always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth.
8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the faith.
9 But they will not get very far, for their folly will be plain to all, as was that of those two men.
10 You, however, have followed my teaching, my conduct, my aim in life, my faith, my patience, my love, my steadfastness,
11 my persecutions and sufferings that happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, and at Lystra-which persecutions I endured; yet from them all the Lord rescued me.
12 Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,
13 while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.
14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it
15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Whats ironic is we know that some can, have, and will be blotted from the book.

Exodus 32
30 The next day Moses said to the people, "You have sinned a great sin. And now I will go up to the LORD; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin."
31 So Moses returned to the LORD and said, "Alas, this people has sinned a great sin. They have made for themselves gods of gold.
32 But now, if you will forgive their sin-but if not, please blot me out of your book that you have written."
33 But the LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against me, I will blot out of my book.

Yet presumptuously some will deny the words of the very book they seek to make life out of.

Hebrews 10
26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.

Rather, this is an example of misunderstanding what Moses said and building a false doctrine from it.

Moses was asking to not be blotted out of the book. Does that prove that he could be? No. Any more than the prodigal, who was prepared to ask for demotion from son to hired hand, could be demoted from sonship.

What is undeniable is that a child REMAINS FOREVER the child of their parents. That relationship cannot be reversed or undone.

Same in the spiritual sense. Once a child of God, always a child of God.

You focus on what you want to see, and neglect to see what is needed. Verse 33 of Exodus 32 is one that needs to be known if a person is going to lead people away from Christ, saying that worship of false gods will not effect salvation.

 

[MarkT]

Amos 8:11
“Behold, the days are coming,” says the Lord God, “when I will send a famine on the land; not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord.

I said this:
"That is why we DON'T take His metaphors literally."

Exactly what I said.


But not take it literally when He was making spiritual points.


I didn't do that. One of the posters tried to make more of the literal meaning of the metaphor than what Jesus was emphasizing.

Jesus made no mention of any of the plants dying. He did emphasize which of the plants produced fruit and which didn't.

What does wither mean? What does "If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. John `15:6 mean?

What about it? The point Jesus made was that the second soil believed. They were saved.


Let's not take a parable so much farther than what Jesus intended. He wasn't speaking technically, but to make a simple point.


Jesus was speaking of fellowship in the word "abide".


That was never the point of Jesus. He said nothing of dying. His point was about FRUIT PRODUCTION.


Not in His parable of the soils. Mixing and matching verses out of context is a dangerous thing. It leads to much false doctrine.
The parable stands on its own. Jesus' point was about fruit production, or the lack thereof.

Do you agree that when a believer ceases to believe, he ceases to produce fruit?

That was Jesus' point.

What was Jesus' point about His choosing of His 11 disciples, and by extension, us who believe?

John 11 -
7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

v.7 is about being in fellowship, in order for our prayers to be answered.

16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.

So, Jesus' point in the parable of the soils is to 'go and bear fruit'. Not become discouraged (lack of faith) by testing/temptations, or distractions (3rd soil), which leads to failure to produce fruit.

John 11 is not about fellowship. It says if you abide in me and my words abide in you, ask whatever you will and it shall be done for you. So as long as his word abides in us, we abide in him, and we can ask God for whatever we will and it shall be done for us.

But returning to the parable of the sower, it says, "
Luke 8:13
And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy; but these have no root, they believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

So what they heard did not benefit them. In this case they had no depth of soil so they only believed for a while, and then they fell into unbelief.

If you want to say it's about fruit production, fine.
Matthew 7:19
Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

 

[FreeGrace]

John 11 is not about fellowship.

It is EXACTLY about fellowship. And the next sentence in your post shows as much.

It says if you abide in me and my words abide in you, ask whatever you will and it shall be done for you.

Self evident. If one is out of fellowship with the Lord, will He give us what we ask? What we'll get is His discipline, which Heb 12:11 says is painful, not pleasant.

And, just as good fathers wouldn't even think to kill their rebellious children, neither does God think that way. Heb 12 explains all that.

But returning to the parable of the sower, it says, "
Luke 8:13
And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy; but these have no root, they believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

So what they heard did not benefit them. In this case they had no depth of soil so they only believed for a while, and then they fell into unbelief.

This isn'st about benefitting the soil. It's about fruit production, or the lack of it. And the reasons for the lack of it.

If you want to say it's about fruit production, fine.

That's what Jesus was talking about. Exactly like John 15:1-6.

Matthew 7:19
Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

The word "fire" doesn't demand the idea of hell. Or 1 Cor 3:15 would make no sense whatsoever.

Fire is used throughout Scripture for God's anger and punishment.

And, yes, those believers who fail to produce fruit will face God's anger and punishment. But not eternal death. They have been given eternal life, and Jesus promised recipients of eternal life they would never perish. Jn 10:28