Jesus promise: Recipients of eternal life will never perish!

[Nathan]

Actually, Jesus said His sheep will never perish. The ones who hear Him and follow Him. In fact, He specifically said the ones who do not listen and hear are not His sheep.

John 10:25 (ESV) 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me,

John 10:26 (ESV) 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep.

His sheep believe. The ones who do not believe are not His sheep.

 

[MarkT]

It is EXACTLY about fellowship. And the next sentence in your post shows as much.

6 If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you. John 15:6

I don't see the word fellowship. Do you see the words 'wither' and 'thrown into the fire and burned'? What does wither mean?

Self evident. If one is out of fellowship with the Lord, will He give us what we ask? What we'll get is His discipline, which Heb 12:11 says is painful, not pleasant.

Do you see, "If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you.? What does 'if my words abide in you' mean? You know the word is sown in the heart. So that's where the word abides.

And Jesus said, 'you are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you.' The word made them clean. So a man is made clean by the word, therefore he can ask God, and God will do it for him.

I'm surprised you don't say it's about fruit production the same way you dismiss his other teachings.

And, just as good fathers wouldn't even think to kill their rebellious children, neither does God think that way. Heb 12 explains all that.

Paul says, "It is for discipline that you have to endure." So it's for our own good that God says we have to endure suffering and temptation, hardship, trials etc. That's the Lord's discipline.

This isn'st about benefitting the soil. It's about fruit production, or the lack of it. And the reasons for the lack of it.

There ya go again. It's about fruit production.

That's what Jesus was talking about. Exactly like John 15:1-6.


The word "fire" doesn't demand the idea of hell. Or 1 Cor 3:15 would make no sense whatsoever.

Fire is used throughout Scripture for God's anger and punishment.

And, yes, those believers who fail to produce fruit will face God's anger and punishment. But not eternal death. They have been given eternal life, and Jesus promised recipients of eternal life they would never perish. Jn 10:28

Just because they believed for a while does not make them his sheep. Jesus gives his sheep eternal life. Saying recipients of eternal life will never perish is leaving out information. The shepherd knows his sheep. His sheep hear his voice and they follow him.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; 28 and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.

Who are the recipients? His sheep. Those who follow him. I think it's pretty obvious an unbeliever can not be an unbeliever and a follower at the same time.

How about the fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah?
Genesis 19:24
Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomor′rah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven;

 

[eddif]

What allows an individual person to enter all these promises?

Romans 11:29 KJV
For the gifts and calling of God arewithout repentance.

Does this mean everyone will be saved? No.

The concept of promises not being suddenly yanked away is the secure part.

Exodus 32:10 KJV
Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.
11 And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?
12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.
13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

God came pretty close to taking away eternal security. Through intercession the promises stayed intact.

How much more is the fact Jesus seated on the right hand of God ever making intercession for us; effective.

The big broad picture of security is in the hand of the Godhead. To take an individual human person and develop eternal security around them is a slippery creek bank.

Moses was a type, shadow of the coming intercession of Jesus.

The receipt of eternal security depends on God not throwing up his hands and saying forget this bunch of rebels. If we lift up Jesus we get benefits. We preach Jesus and not ourselves.

Right in the middle of destroying Jerusalem 400 years before Jesus, the promise of putting word in hearts and minds happens.

The gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Rednecks confess their sins.
eddif

 

[FreeGrace]

Actually, Jesus said His sheep will never perish. The ones who hear Him and follow Him. In fact, He specifically said the ones who do not listen and hear are not His sheep.

OK.

Does everyone who receives the gift of eternal life avoid perishing? Or, wil some recipients of eternal life perish?

John 10:25 (ESV) 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me,

John 10:26 (ESV) 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep.

His sheep believe. The ones who do not believe are not His sheep.

These verses don't support your claim that "He specifically said the ones who do not listen and hear are not His sheep".

They do support the fact that only believers are His sheep.

 

[FreeGrace]

6 If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you. John 15:6

I don't see the word fellowship. Do you see the words 'wither' and 'thrown into the fire and burned'? What does wither mean?

The literal or metaphor meaning?

One doesn't have to see the word "fellowship" to see the concept. The Bible uses a variety of words that are about fellowship:
abiding, remain in Me, partnership (konomia), come in and sup with you (Rev 3:20).

Do you see, "If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you.?

Sure. I even pointed it out in my explanation of the verse being about fellowship, not salvation.

What does 'if my words abide in you' mean?

It means to obey. Pay attention to. Follow.

You know the word is sown in the heart. So that's where the word abides.

When a believer sins, is the Word "abiding" in their heart? It's there, all right. But is it abiding? No.

And Jesus said, 'you are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you.' The word made them clean. So a man is made clean by the word, therefore he can ask God, and God will do it for him.

Will God answer our requests when we are out of fellowship?
Isa 59:2 - But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear.

Ps 66:18 - If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:

I'm surprised you don't say it's about fruit production the same way you dismiss his other teachings.

I'm surprised at this totally FALSE claim that I dismiss ANY of Jesus' teachings.

If you're going to make such outrageous claims, please prove them with evidence.

Paul says, "It is for discipline that you have to endure." So it's for our own good that God says we have to endure suffering and temptation, hardship, trials etc. That's the Lord's discipline.

It's WAY more than just that. I'm glad you quoted Paul. This is what he had to say about God's discipline for Corinthian believers who abused the Lord's Table:
1 Cor 11:30-31 - That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep (euphemism for physical death).

See the progression? weakness, sickness, and finally physical death. And Heb 12:11 informs us of what to expect with God's discipline: it's PAINFUL, not pleasant. No mere slap on the hand.

Just because they believed for a while does not make them his sheep. Jesus gives his sheep eternal life.

This is an interesting comment. I was unaware of any probationary time period BEFORE Jesus gives eternal life. Which text teaches this?

In fact, in John 5:24, Jesus was clear as to WHEN one HAS (possesses) eternal life; those who believe. They HAVE it right now.

Saying recipients of eternal life will never perish is leaving out information.

I see. So Jesus left out information then. Hm. That doesn't make sense.

Here, you're claiming that Jn 10:28 doesn't give the whole picture, yet you've charged me with dismissing His other teachings.

Isn't this exactly what you're doing? Dismissing a very clear and straightforward statement from Jesus about the RESULT of giving His sheep eternal life; they will NEVER PERISH.

So, what did He leave out?

The shepherd knows his sheep. His sheep hear his voice and they follow him.

He still gives His sheep eternal life (and we know from His teaching in Jn 5:24 that it is WHEN they believe) and they will never perish.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; 28 and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.

There's not an English teacher in the land who would allow v.27 to be a requirement for never perishing.

Who are the recipients? His sheep.

Believers. And given eternal life WHEN they first believed. Jn 5:24

Those who follow him. I think it's pretty obvious an unbeliever can not be an unbeliever and a follower at the same time.

Since Jesus was clear in His parable of the soils that one of them 'believed for a while'. So it should be obvious that some of His sheep may not believe to the end of their lives. Yet, we know He gives the gift of eternal life WHEN they FIRST believed. And having received eternal life, they WILL NEVER PERISH. Jn 10:28

It's also obvious that "following Him" requires a lifetime activity, since there is no time frames attached to it. And it begs the questions of:
1. follow Him for how long?
2. follow Him how much? 100%, 80%, 60%, 50%, etc.

Since none of these criteria are listed in Scripture, if "following Him" is a requirement for receiving eternal life, that can only be determined AFTER one dies, at the end of their life.

But that CONTRADICTS John 5:24 as to WHEN one possesses eternal life.

So your view has lots of problems and unanswered questions.

How about the fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah?
Genesis 19:24
Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomor′rah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven;

OK, what about it? How about the "fire" in 1 Cor 3:15? Care to discuss it?

 

[Nathan]

OK.

Does everyone who receives the gift of eternal life avoid perishing? Or, wil some recipients of eternal life perish?


These verses don't support your claim that "He specifically said the ones who do not listen and hear are not His sheep".

They do support the fact that only believers are His sheep.

The ones with eternal life will not perish. Simple, straight forward.

The verses I quoted actually state that those who are not His sheep do not believe.

 

[FreeGrace]

The ones with eternal life will not perish. Simple, straight forward.

From the momemt they have been given it.

So why should anyone think that salvation can be lost?

 

[Nathan]

From the momemt they have been given it.

So why should anyone think that salvation can be lost?

The ones with eternal life will not perish, not the ones who turn from that life in unbelief.

Hebrews 10
32 But recall the former days when, after you were enlightened, you endured a hard struggle with sufferings,
33 sometimes being publicly exposed to reproach and affliction, and sometimes being partners with those so treated.
34 For you had compassion on those in prison, and you joyfully accepted the plundering of your property, since you knew that you yourselves had a better possession and an abiding one.
35 Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised.
37 For, "Yet a little while, and the coming one will come and will not delay;
38 but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him."
39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.

 

[eddif]

The literal or metaphor meaning?

Allegory of the Bible:
Has a literal physical component
Has a literal spiritual component

The literal physical and the literal spiritual are tied together.

eddif

 

[MarkT]

The literal or metaphor meaning?

One doesn't have to see the word "fellowship" to see the concept. The Bible uses a variety of words that are about fellowship:
abiding, remain in Me, partnership (konomia), come in and sup with you (Rev 3:20).

So you think abiding in Christ means fellowship. I would agree with that. If we abide in him, we are his friends. You can say being in Christ means eternal life. You can say it means the salvation of our soul. It also means we keep his commandments, and we abide in his love.

But I asked about the words 'wither' and 'thrown into the fire and burned.' What do these words mean? Do they mean eternal life? Or do they mean eternal fire and burning?

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"From the momemt they have been given it.

So why should anyone think that salvation can be lost?"

The ones with eternal life will not perish, not the ones who turn from that life in unbelief.

That is NOT what Jesus promised. He said nothing about "turning" or doing anything else.

From the moment of receiving eternal life, that recipient will never perish.

 

[FreeGrace]

So you think abiding in Christ means fellowship. I would agree with that. If we abide in him, we are his friends.

I think that becausd we are commanded to abide in Him. If that referred to salvation, it would mean we participate in our own salvation.

You can say being in Christ means eternal life.

Being "in Christ" is by means of being sealed with the Holy Spirit. Of course, one cannot be sealed in Him and not have eternal life. They certainly go together.

You can say it means the salvation of our soul. It also means we keep his commandments, and we abide in his love.

It also means we ARE to keep His commandments. It's a command for His disciples. Not a command to get saved.

But I asked about the words 'wither' and 'thrown into the fire and burned.' What do these words mean? Do they mean eternal life? Or do they mean eternal fire and burning?

In this context, they refer to God's discipline and punishment for misbehavior.

 

[FreeGrace]

The ones with eternal life will not perish. Simple, straight forward.

The verses I quoted actually state that those who are not His sheep do not believe.

Correct. So all who have believed in Him ARE His sheep, and regardless of anything they do subsequent to their belief in Him, Jesus promises sthat they will never perish.

Or, find the actual condition that Jesus added in v.28 to fulfill the part of never perishing.

 

[Nathan]

Correct. So all who have believed in Him ARE His sheep, and regardless of anything they do subsequent to their belief in Him, Jesus promises sthat they will never perish.

Or, find the actual condition that Jesus added in v.28 to fulfill the part of never perishing.

Your "actual condition" is called the word of God. You add words that are not in that passage. The rest of what Jesus talked about should not be left out.

Jeremiah 14:17-18
"You shall say to them this word: 'Let my eyes run down with tears night and day, and let them not cease, for the virgin daughter of my people is shattered with a great wound, with a very grievous blow.
If I go out into the field, behold, those pierced by the sword! And if I enter the city, behold, the diseases of famine! For both prophet and priest ply their trade through the land and have no knowledge.'"

1 John 2:22
Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.

Problem is, most deny He is the Christ because they willfully deny Who the Christ was to be in favor of the 'savior' they want.

 

[Christ_empowered]

Not to sound critical, but sometimes I think there's a tendency for Christians to focus so much on their interpretation of Scripture that they/we lose sight of...well, Jesus.

That's one reason I'm not real gung ho about OSAS, the TULIP of Calvinism, etc. I do enjoy reading about Christian doctrine and such from time to time, but I try to avoid dedicating myself to any "camp" of interpretation. The way I see it, well-educated Christians have been battling it out for centuries. There's no end in sight. Non-expert Christians, like me, should certainly keep up with doctrine and all, but I think the focus should be (to quote my cousin...) on "Christ and Him crucified."

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"So all who have believed in Him ARE His sheep, and regardless of anything they do subsequent to their belief in Him, Jesus promises sthat they will never perish.

Or, find the actual condition that Jesus added in v.28 to fulfill the part of never perishing."

Your "actual condition" is called the word of God.

There are NO conditions for never perishing for recipients of the gift of eternal life.

You add words that are not in that passage.

Like what, for instance???

The rest of what Jesus talked about should not be left out.

They were NOT part of the promise for never perishing.

Jeremiah 14:17-18
"You shall say to them this word: 'Let my eyes run down with tears night and day, and let them not cease, for the virgin daughter of my people is shattered with a great wound, with a very grievous blow.
If I go out into the field, behold, those pierced by the sword! And if I enter the city, behold, the diseases of famine! For both prophet and priest ply their trade through the land and have no knowledge.'"

Quoting a passage without comment does not help. I have no idea why this is shared. How does it form context for what Jesus promised in John 5:24 and 10:28?

1 John 2:22
Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.

Your point?

One needs to come to grips with the clear promise that Jesus made about recipients of eternal life in John 10:28.

Becoming a recipient of eternal life means never perishing. That is exactly what Jesus' words conclude.

 

[FreeGrace]

Not to sound critical, but sometimes I think there's a tendency for Christians to focus so much on their interpretation of Scripture that they/we lose sight of...well, Jesus.

That's one reason I'm not real gung ho about OSAS, the TULIP of Calvinism, etc. I do enjoy reading about Christian doctrine and such from time to time, but I try to avoid dedicating myself to any "camp" of interpretation. The way I see it, well-educated Christians have been battling it out for centuries. There's no end in sight. Non-expert Christians, like me, should certainly keep up with doctrine and all, but I think the focus should be (to quote my cousin...) on "Christ and Him crucified."

Is all this to say that the Bible isn't clear about the issue of salvation?

When Jesus said, "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one is able to snatch them out of My hand." in John 10:28, can it be possible for any one of the recipients of eternal life to perish?? If so, please explain.

He gave no conditions between receiving the gift of eternal life and never perishing, so one cannot conclude that there are ANY conditions to meet in order to never perish.

 

[Nathan]

I said this:
"So all who have believed in Him ARE His sheep, and regardless of anything they do subsequent to their belief in Him, Jesus promises sthat they will never perish.

Or, find the actual condition that Jesus added in v.28 to fulfill the part of never perishing."

There are NO conditions for never perishing for recipients of the gift of eternal life.


Like what, for instance???


They were NOT part of the promise for never perishing.


Quoting a passage without comment does not help. I have no idea why this is shared. How does it form context for what Jesus promised in John 5:24 and 10:28?


Your point?

One needs to come to grips with the clear promise that Jesus made about recipients of eternal life in John 10:28.

Becoming a recipient of eternal life means never perishing. That is exactly what Jesus' words conclude.

My point? The point is eternal life is in Christ. Jesus words were against those who do not believe - He was speaking to them.

The truth is that there are some just like them who still are weary in their thought that Jesus was the Christ, and those who teach others that salvation is apart from Christ - therefore denying Him.

The Pharisees that 'did not believe', who Jesus was speaking to, thought salvation was based on their birth and what they did - not unlike people today who believe their salvation is based on being born again and their belief.

The Pharisees of that time did not want to hear and follow, which is why Jesus said His sheep do. They wanted to have salvation from God - but they wanted it on their own terms. Just like some teach today.

 

[MarkT]

I think that becausd we are commanded to abide in Him. If that referred to salvation, it would mean we participate in our own salvation.

That's not a reason to think abiding means fellowship. Fellowship means friendship, but to abide in him is to live in him.

What makes you think we do not participate? Do we not run the same race? Are we without discipline? Do we not endure trials and temptations? Hebrews 12:8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

 

[MarkT]

The word "fire" doesn't demand the idea of hell. Or 1 Cor 3:15 would make no sense whatsoever.

Fire is used throughout Scripture for God's anger and punishment.

And, yes, those believers who fail to produce fruit will face God's anger and punishment. But not eternal death. They have been given eternal life, and Jesus promised recipients of eternal life they would never perish. Jn 10:28

You say those who fail to produce fruit will be punished. But not eternal death. But I say they are already dead. Dead wood. Their end is to be thrown into the fire and burned.

1 Cor. 3:15 refers to that which we build on the foundation of Jesus Christ and him crucified, in other words, our theology. If our theology survives the Day, we will be rewarded. But if it doesn't survive the Day, it will be burned up, but the man himself will be saved, but only as through fire.