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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Jesus promise: Recipients of eternal life will never perish!
- Thread starter FreeGrace
- Start date
Nathan
Member
The condition of verse 28 is to be one of the verse 27 ones.
Do you honestly believe that Jesus said something that is "generally" true? Do you believe His next statement is also generally true?
Nathan
Member
Do you think that Jesus was not just speaking of those in verse 27, that there are others?
So if you believe that statement was correct, then do you also believe His sheep follow Him?
Verse 27 clearly tells us who are the recipients of the promise of verse 28...Is there any verse within the context of v.28 that somehow changes the clear promise Jesus made in v.28?
He gives them eternal life means they will never perish.
No. So how does that change what Jesus promised in John 10:28?
If there is an attempt here to make a parallel betweens followers and believers who cease to follow/believe, this is what Jesus WOULD HAVE SAID in John 10:28 -
I give them (FOLLOWERS AND BELIEVERS) eternal life, and AS LONG AS they CONTINUE TO FOLLOW AND BELIEVE, they will never perish.
Do you see the point here? Jesus gave NO SUCH CONDITIONS for never perishing.
His promise is based solely on receiving eternal life in v.28. No other conditions.
How many verses shall I quote about believing on Him to have eternal life?
It seems the real issue of v.28 is being avoided. He promises that those He gives eternal life (THAT WOULD BE RECIPIENTS OF ETERNAL LIFE) will never perish. Period. No conditions beyond RECEPTION of eternal life.
Do you agree or disagree?
I'm NOT interested in those trying to force v.27 into some kind of a condition for never perishing. It can't be done rationally, or reasonably.
v.28 stands alone in how to NEVER PERISH. And that is to receive eternal life from Jesus.
Arguing how to receive eternal life is another discussion. My interest and focus is on the FACT that RECIPIENTS will NEVER PERISH.
That's the promise Jesus made. Agree or disagree? And why, if there is disagreement.
This is quite vague. Please spell out what is meant here.
How can it not be generally true? Why would He provide a parable where someone "believes for a while" if that weren't true?? Please answer.
v.28 is a statement of FACT. Recipients of eternal life will never perish.
Not generally, but every last one of the recipients.
If there are any exceptions, as I've shown for sheep who believe for a while, meaning they don't ALL follow Him all the time, then please share those exceptions that support your position that there are SOME RECIPIENTS who WILL PERISH.
I've proven my claim about v.27 being a general statement. Now, can you prove your claim that there are some recipients who will perish?
If you can, then we know that v.28 is also a general one.
Just because v.27 is a general statement and not applicable to every single sheep, doesn't mean the next verse MUST ALSO be a general statement where not all the recipients will not perish.
Fine. Let's just focus on what Jesus promised in v.28.
Do you agree that Jesus promised that recipients of eternal life will never perish or not? This question does NOT require a definition of who the recipients of eternal life are, or how they became recipients.
Yes, sir!! Eternal security for all recipients.
What? Where?
Context matters some times..
Here is another .. from here I have pointed out that Paul described 3 of God's gifts within the CONTEXT of the epistle to the Romans. And, in case you're not aware, 3 items fits withing the PLURAL (giftS), and therefore, cannot be dissociated from 11:29, as you'd seem to prefer.
Nathan
Member
Jesus did say that some would believe and then fall away. Yet you think one of Jesus statements is general and conditional, yet the very next statement He says is specific and absolute.
FreeGrace that is called self-deception, and to teach it is to try and deceive others.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-deception
You cannot rationally think that one statement is not completely true, then the next statement is completely true, just to fit an ideology.
Here is what your getting. Jesus does have sheep, and they do follow Him, and He does give them eternal life.
Here is what your missing. Those who don't follow Christ, who are not in His flock, do not get eternal life.
It's not hard to understand that this is why John states eternal life is in Christ - whoever has the Son has life, whoever doesn't have the Son does not have life.
atpollard
Member
Augustine said the same thing LONG before John Calvin.
There were Medieval Scholars who hinted at it in some writings, but the fear of being burned as a heretic tended to encourage them to later issue statements revising their positions. It wasn't until the Reformation that saying something contrary to the traditions of Rome was not fatal. Your fairy tale about John Calvin is inaccurate.
As an aside, sinning will not cost you your salvation in the Theology of the Roman Catholic Church. Only leaving the RCC will (or never being a member). Time in Pergatory is what is at stake. So you must blame John Calvin for messing up that little 'historic truth' as well.
atpollard
Member
Yes. Which is what she keeps telling you.
A verse needs to be read in context because it is only one small part of a much larger thought that the author is attempting to express. The very fact that it begins with "And" should be a hint that it is not even a complete sentence but a continuation of a thought.
atpollard
Member
Doesn't Jesus claim that "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me." (John 10:27). So 'His sheep' could stop following in a theoretical sense, but Jesus claims that they will not. Hence statements like "and I will raise them up at the last day" (John 6:40, John 6:44, John 6:54).
(At what point does a sheep no longer belong to the shepherd?)
when they leave the flock and the bad guy butcher gets them