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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Jesus promise: Recipients of eternal life will never perish!
- Thread starter FreeGrace
- Start date
Gregg T
Member
1.
2.
3.
If 1. is true, 'He will never leave us',
Then, will the Lord accompany those supposedly 3. 'taking the broad path to hell'?
- - -
A believer can not sell Christ's birthright. A believer shares in Christ's birthright, as He is the firstborn among many brethren, and we are set firmly in Him, having believed into Him. We believers are not our own; as we have been bought with a price, brought into His captivity, transferred into the kingdom of Light, whose citizenship is in heaven, created in Christ, of incorrupable seed, joined to Christ, married to the Lord, beloved, placed into His hand, sealed by His Spirit; atoned for, forgiven, covered by His blood, justified in Christ, reconciled to God, sanctified, not foresaken; having a Savior, an Intersessor, a Mediator, a Counselor, our Peace with God, access to a throne of grace, knowing the Father and known by Him; released from death and sin and the world. We are His workmanship, His possession, His inheritance . . . given a type of new life in Him that is eternal so as to never perish in any case.
One did not find his own way into heaven, into Christ, into these things; how could he possibly find his own way out of this.
2.
3.
If 1. is true, 'He will never leave us',
Then, will the Lord accompany those supposedly 3. 'taking the broad path to hell'?
- - -
A believer can not sell Christ's birthright. A believer shares in Christ's birthright, as He is the firstborn among many brethren, and we are set firmly in Him, having believed into Him. We believers are not our own; as we have been bought with a price, brought into His captivity, transferred into the kingdom of Light, whose citizenship is in heaven, created in Christ, of incorrupable seed, joined to Christ, married to the Lord, beloved, placed into His hand, sealed by His Spirit; atoned for, forgiven, covered by His blood, justified in Christ, reconciled to God, sanctified, not foresaken; having a Savior, an Intersessor, a Mediator, a Counselor, our Peace with God, access to a throne of grace, knowing the Father and known by Him; released from death and sin and the world. We are His workmanship, His possession, His inheritance . . . given a type of new life in Him that is eternal so as to never perish in any case.
One did not find his own way into heaven, into Christ, into these things; how could he possibly find his own way out of this.
Nathan
Member
Heb 3:12-15
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.
As it is said,
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”
All those things are ours through faith. That 'original' confidence that was given to us by God. It is faith which we will place at our Saviors feet, and receive all the inheritance of His Kingdom. Unless you do not believe that the writer of Hebrews means what he said?
If we lay aside that faith, then come into His Kingdom with our own filthy rags on - and He will cast us out.
Mat 22:11-14
“But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ For many are called, but few are chosen.”
Nathan
Member
I heard this verse this morning and your post made me think of it.
Jhn 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
It blows me away when people think that there is another way, another truth, and another life - outside of Christ.
That's not I read from your explanation of falling off the fence post.
This is from that post: (not fence post)
"We can walk away from the Lord.. He will never leave us, we are free to walk away. I believe we are much more secure in Him then i understood 45 years ago or so... Praise the Lord for that... We are to follow, following is active... We dont 'do works' for salvation we do works because of salvation.. We are to study, study is another active word.... Spreading the Gospel is active.. 'Go ye' is an active statement... Kinda like that .."
I took your statement "I believe we are much more secure in Him then I understood 45 years ago or so...". That was followed by what believers are supposed to do: we are to follow.
If I mistook your words, then I apologize and retract my "nails".
OK, why is there nothing in Scripture that refutes the guarantee in Eph 1:13,14 about being marked IN HIM with a seal, the Holy Spirit??
If one can lose salvation, then they MUST also lose the Holy Spirit. Where does the NT teach that anywhere? It doesn't.
Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would be with us forever (Jn 14:16). Can a believer lose the Holy Spirit?
Of course there isn't.
Now, please explain what Paul meant in this verse: Eph 1:14 - who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession — to the praise of his glory.
What did he mean by "our inheritance"?
What did he mean by "until the redemption of God's possession"?
Nathan
Member
Our inheritance is in Heaven, kept there for us, who are in Christ. The Spirit is the mark, the seal, that this inheritance is there for us when we get there. When we are redeemed, when that day comes when Christ separates the sheep from the goats, then those found to be His sheep will receive that inheritance. Those found to be goats will not.
Until then, the promises are ours through faith. Forsake the faith, you forsake the promises.
Heb 6:9-12
Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation. For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love that you have shown for his name in serving the saints, as you still do. And we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness to have the full assurance of hope until the end, so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
You have convinced me, my jump off the fence is correct for me.... i will not be heavy in this discussion ..
Last edited:
Gregg T
Member
I understand the writer of Hebrews 3 was speaking about one having "an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God", one who is at the precipice of salvation having yet to first believe into Christ, having been enlightened but not believing into the Light, having tasted the good word of God but not having eaten and digested the Manna from heaven, having tasted the powers of the age to come but not having been ressurrected in Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit.
But of those having believed into Christ, he says, "Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way."
What accompanies salvation, but a life that is now eternal, into the ages, perpetual, based on the finished work of God and not on the continual work of man.
Deu 9:28 'Otherwise the land from which You brought us may say, "Because the LORD was not able to bring them into the land which He had promised them and because He hated them He has brought them out to slay them in the wilderness."
Nathan
Member
So "holding our original confidence firm to the end" is not a condition of sharing in Christ? Was the writer of Hebrews mistaken about that?
KJV
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
RSV
For we share in Christ, if only we hold our first confidence firm to the end,
Can we lay aside that faith, the confidence we first received, and still share in Christ?
Deu 9:6
“Know, therefore, that the LORD your God is not giving you this good land to possess because of your righteousness, for you are a stubborn people.
Deu 30:15-20
“See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil. If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it. But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them, I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess. I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live, loving the LORD your God, obeying his voice and holding fast to him, for he is your life and length of days, that you may dwell in the land that the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.”
Nathan
Member
Gal 3:5
Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith—
1Ti 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,
Mat 6:24
“No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.
Rom 8:14
For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
1Jo 3:24
Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.
You leave the faith, you leave the Spirit, you leave Christ, you leave life.
Do you believe you can have the Spirit and not have the faith of Christ? Can a person not have faith, yet have the Spirit of God?
Yes, I know that. That is not the issue, as you also know well.
The issue is how one is 'removed' from Christ. You know, all that UN-doing from Eph 1:13,14. Where is the support in Scripture for that?
What do you mean by 'those found to be His sheep'?? Aren't they known NOW??
The Bible uses the present tense for believing, meaning TODAY, not after this life, in eternity. The Bible also uses the aorist tense, which means to believe as a single occurrence or in a point in time (usually past time).
So how would you square that with your comment?
Where in the Bible is that taught?
What I read here is a desire for believers "to have the FULL ASSURANCE OF HOPE UNTIL THE END". So that they "may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who inherit the promises".
But nothing about losing salvation, or being UN-marked, UN-sealed, or even UN-saved, for any reason.
So again, where is your claim above found in Scripture? Otherwise, it remains a mere opinion. Not a fact.
Do you believe a recipient of eternal life can perish?
Actually, I hope and pray that Scripture has convinced you. I really had nothing to do with it.
I said this:
"OK, why is there nothing in Scripture that refutes the guarantee in Eph 1:13,14 about being marked IN HIM with a seal, the Holy Spirit??
If one can lose salvation, then they MUST also lose the Holy Spirit. Where does the NT teach that anywhere? It doesn't.
Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would be with us forever (Jn 14:16). Can a believer lose the Holy Spirit?"
"OK, why is there nothing in Scripture that refutes the guarantee in Eph 1:13,14 about being marked IN HIM with a seal, the Holy Spirit??
If one can lose salvation, then they MUST also lose the Holy Spirit. Where does the NT teach that anywhere? It doesn't.
Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would be with us forever (Jn 14:16). Can a believer lose the Holy Spirit?"
Except none of these quoted verses say anything like that.
I asked a very specific question that was not answered. So, you first. Answer my question and I'll gladly answer yours.
Ditto here.
Scripture sure has..
Nathan
Member
I believe that a person who leaves Christ will perish - for only in Him is there life.
Heb 3:12-15
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.
Gal 3:16
Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.
2Pe 1:3
His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
2Pe 2:19
They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved.
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.
What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”
It is possible to believe something yet not know it. However, it is impossible to know something and not believe it. There are those who have come before, and still more to come, who have known the way of righteousness - yet lay it aside, turn away from it, back to their own self-righteousness - thinking that they can do something to earn righteousness.
Nathan
Member
I have answered your question. You just do not like the answer. Here is my answer yet again.
Yes, a believer can turn away from the Spirit. When you turn from the faith, you turn from everything it brings.
Gal 3:5
Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith
The Spirit comes to us by faith.
Care to answer mine?
Do you believe you can have the Spirit and not have the faith of Christ?
Can a person not have faith, yet have the Spirit of God?
Mike
Member
This is intellectual dishonesty. In this and every other discussion on the topic, you have been given scripture to support OSNAS. You have created your own litmus test, and you have predetermined that it will never be met. You may not be personally convinced, but that is very different from the claim that nothing has been provided.
I would suggest that you cease posing challenges to which you are unwilling to give any consideration when responses are given. You and every other person interprets scripture. You may be right, and you may be wrong. It is not rational to stand on the claim that you harbor the Truth and all other interpretations are mere personal opinion.
Where did Jesus make such a conditional promise? Certainly not in John 10:28.
From your statement, it seems that the promise of never perishing because of being a recipient of eternal life is not something you believe.
Yet, that is exactly what Jesus promised.
Anyway, thanks for your honesty.
That makes no sense. It's possible to have believed something and forget that you did. Or develop dementia and not remember what you believed.
But it's IMPOSSIBLE to "not know" what you believe.
I think you've confused your 2 statements. It is VERY POSSIBLE to know something and not believe it.
For example, I know full well your theology on salvation, and I very much do NOT believe it.
None of this relates in any way to eternal security.
In John 10:28, Jesus promised eternal security. Recipients of eternal life will never perish. That's a very clear statement of FACT.
No conditions on the recipients. If one has received eternal life, Jesus SAID they will never perish.
And you've disagreed with Jesus' promise in the post I'm responding to.
So, there it is, in black and white.