Jesus promise: Recipients of eternal life will never perish!

[Gregg T]

So "holding our original confidence firm to the end" is not a condition of sharing in Christ? Was the writer of Hebrews mistaken about that?

You are making salvation about your confidence and your holding and your sharing.

But salvation is Christ's Crucifixion and our having died with Him, His Resurrection and our being raised with Him, His Ascension and our being seated with Him, Pentecosr and our being sealed In Him, the Parousia and our meeting Him there.

Surely the Holy Spirit is right about what He inspires, and Paul was unmistaken in his writing of it. I agree with what Paul wrote, but see it from a perspective different than yours. I also percieve your view of salvation rests firmly on an individual's ability and willingness.

This matter is not about Christ's ability to save us, but His willingness and guarantee to keep us saved. Perhaps one might change (or neglect to understand) the definition of eternal and never so as to think otherwise.

 

[Nathan]

You are making salvation about your confidence and your holding and your sharing.

But salvation is Christ's Crucifixion and our having died with Him, His Resurrection and our being raised with Him, His Ascension and our being seated with Him, Pentecosr and our being sealed In Him, the Parousia and our meeting Him there.

Surely the Holy Spirit is right about what He inspires, and Paul was unmistaken in his writing of it. I agree with what Paul wrote, but see it from a perspective different than yours. I also percieve your view of salvation rests firmly on an individual's ability and willingness.

This matter is not about Christ's ability to save us, but His willingness and guarantee to keep us saved. Perhaps one might change (or neglect to understand) the definition of eternal and never so as to think otherwise.

No, you see wrong. You are not viewing my stance very well. Keep looking, you will see it.

So you believe (probably Paul) said that we have come to share in Christ if we hold our original confidence to the end?

So, if we turn away from that, will we still share in Christ?

 

[Nathan]

Where did Jesus make such a conditional promise? Certainly not in John 10:28.

From your statement, it seems that the promise of never perishing because of being a recipient of eternal life is not something you believe.

Yet, that is exactly what Jesus promised.

Anyway, thanks for your honesty.


That makes no sense. It's possible to have believed something and forget that you did. Or develop dementia and not remember what you believed.

But it's IMPOSSIBLE to "not know" what you believe.


I think you've confused your 2 statements. It is VERY POSSIBLE to know something and not believe it.

For example, I know full well your theology on salvation, and I very much do NOT believe it.


None of this relates in any way to eternal security.

In John 10:28, Jesus promised eternal security. Recipients of eternal life will never perish. That's a very clear statement of FACT.

No conditions on the recipients. If one has received eternal life, Jesus SAID they will never perish.

And you've disagreed with Jesus' promise in the post I'm responding to.

So, there it is, in black and white.

Actually, Jesus said His sheep will be the only ones with eternal life. Do you believe it is only His sheep, or do you believe that others will also have eternal life?

Do His sheep follow Him? Do you actually believe it? Do His sheep hear Him? Do you hear Him?

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"So, where is any of that taught in Scripture? So far, all I've seen is opinions. No Scripture to support the opinions."

This is intellectual dishonesty.

Not at all. There are no verses that say plainly that one can lose salvation, eternal life. That is a fact.

And Jesus promised that recipients of eternal life will never perish. So, how can anyone who has received eternal life (making them a recipient) ever perish. It is impossible.

So, IF there were any verses that did plainly say that salvation can be lost, then the Bible would be internally conflicted. I reject such a notion.

In this and every other discussion on the topic, you have been given scripture to support OSNAS.

What I've been given does NOT support it. Supporters of that idea think those verses supports their view. But there are no verses that plainly say salvation can be lost. That's the whole point.

You have created your own litmus test, and you have predetermined that it will never be met.

On the contrary, I've provided a verse that very plainly promises that recipients of eternal life will never perish.

So, those who think salvation can be lost are at odds with Jesus' promise.

You may not be personally convinced, but that is very different from the claim that nothing has been provided.

Oh, a lot has been provided. But none of it plainly says anything about salvation being lost.

And I've provided the single most clear and plain verse about eternal security; John 10:28, where Jesus said He gives them eternal life (they are recipients) and they will never perish. Very straightforward, very clear.

But some continue to believe that some recipients of eternal life WILL perish. So, who's right? Jesus' promise or the claims of some here?

I would suggest that you cease posing challenges to which you are unwilling to give any consideration when responses are given.

I have shown Scripture that refutes the verses given. Such as Jn 10:28.

You and every other person interprets scripture.

I respectfully ask for your interpretation of what Jesus meant in John 10:28. He either guaranteed that recipients of eternal life will never perish or something else. If He wasn't guaranteeing recipients that they will never perish, what was He even saying? Thank you.

You may be right, and you may be wrong. It is not rational to stand on the claim that you harbor the Truth and all other interpretations are mere personal opinion.

I never said that. I have ALWAYS provided Scripture that SAYS what I claim. Such as John 10:28.

So, if John 10:28 doesn't guarantee eternal security to recipients of eternal life, I have no idea what Jesus was promising or even saying.

So, please help me out here. I see a clear statement about eternal security in the phrase "will never perish". What else could it mean?

I don't know what else. And no one else has explained what else He meant.

 

[FreeGrace]

Actually, Jesus said His sheep will be the only ones with eternal life.

That's fine. I agree.

Now, are there verses about sheep who reverted to goats? That would support your views.

Otherwise, one still needs to face what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life. They will never perish. That is eterna security to me.

What does that mean to you? Thanks.

Do you believe it is only His sheep, or do you believe that others will also have eternal life?

Only His sheep, meaning only those who have believed in Him.

Do His sheep follow Him?

Generally yes. Have you been studying up on what a 'general statement' means? I hope so.

Do you actually believe it?

Of course I do.

Do His sheep hear Him?

Generally.

Do you hear Him?

Yes and no. Just like everyone else. No one is perfect, right? Have you achieved sinless perfection? If the claim is yes, then please read 1 John 1, esp v.8 and v.10. If no, then there is still sin in your life, just like in mine. And when we sin, are we "hearing" Him? No, of course not.

 

[Nathan]

That's fine. I agree.

Now, are there verses about sheep who reverted to goats? That would support your views.

Otherwise, one still needs to face what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life. They will never perish. That is eterna security to me.

What does that mean to you? Thanks.


Only His sheep, meaning only those who have believed in Him.


Generally yes. Have you been studying up on what a 'general statement' means? I hope so.


Of course I do.


Generally.


Yes and no. Just like everyone else. No one is perfect, right? Have you achieved sinless perfection? If the claim is yes, then please read 1 John 1, esp v.8 and v.10. If no, then there is still sin in your life, just like in mine. And when we sin, are we "hearing" Him? No, of course not.

Do you have to be sinless to hear Him?

 

[FreeGrace]

Do you have to be sinless to hear Him?

To be clear, the believer must be in fellowship with Him in order to hear Him.

Do you know HOW to be in fellowship with Him, as opposed to being out of fellowship with Him? Please clarify. Thanks.

 

[Nathan]

To be clear, the believer must be in fellowship with Him in order to hear Him.

Do you know HOW to be in fellowship with Him, as opposed to being out of fellowship with Him? Please clarify. Thanks.

To be in fellowship with Him is to be doing the things He calls you to do, when you are not doing the things He calls you to do then you are not in fellowship with Him - He does not leave you there without discipline.

Do you think a sheep does not hear its masters voice when its walking away? My kids hear me even when I am not in fellowship with them.

 

[Gregg T]

No, you see wrong. You are not viewing my stance very well. Keep looking, you will see it.

So you believe (probably Paul) said that we have come to share in Christ if we hold our original confidence to the end?

So, if we turn away from that, will we still share in Christ?

I see you usually present "if" type hypotheses, and then gradually morph them into factual conclusions.

You need to prove two things to convince me of your theory, even three:
1. someone saved can stop believing in Christ,
2. that his ceasing to believe will result in a loss of salvation,
and
3. that this is a false statement: 'one who is given eternal life will never perish'

The proof should be simple and concise. Please, lets look at one thing at a time so as not to move away from one point or deflect to another issue.

 

[FreeGrace]

To be in fellowship with Him is to be doing the things He calls you to do, when you are not doing the things He calls you to do then you are not in fellowship with Him - He does not leave you there without discipline.

Are you aware that believers can do all the things that Christ commands but in the power of the flesh, rather than in the power of the Holy Spirit? The human (sin) nature is capable to producing self-righteousness. It can look exactly like the righteousness that comes from the power of the Holy Spirit. Only God can see the difference and reality of which power source is being used. Our own or His power, the Holy Spirit.

Believers are commanded to confess their sins. Why? to be forgiven and CLEANSED. A good question for every believer is; have you been cleansed lately? If not keeping "short accounts" by regular confession of ALL known sins, the believer is NOT forgiven, and NOT CLEANSED/PURIFIED. In that state, there cannot any fellowship. In fact, Paul describes this condition as either grieving the Spirit (Eph 4:30) or quenching the Spirit (1 Thess 5:19).

So, the Christian life is NOT about what one does, or avoids doing. It's about doing ALL the commands in the power of the Spirit, as opposed to the power of the flesh.

This is God's view of the best we can muster (our own righteousness):
Isa 64:6 All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;

I hesitate to correctly translate what "filthy rags" refers to, out of respect for basis decency. But even unbelievers can act very moral, patriotic, etc. That sure doesn't come from the power of the Spirit. It can only come from within the human (sin) nature.

And God is offended by that kind of righteousness.

So, just remember that it isn't what we are supposed to do that pleases God. It's by what power we are doing what we are supposed to do.

Do you think a sheep does not hear its masters voice when its walking away?

Not a shepherd. Do not care what sheep hear or not. Jesus was using 'sheep' as a metaphor for believers who "entered through Him" Jn 10:9.

My kids hear me even when I am not in fellowship with them.

So what is this supposed to mean? God deals with His children in the same way. He surely knows how to get our attention. Just as you know how to get your kids' attention.

But the direction in your example was fuzzy. It's not God who is out of fellowship with His children. Just review the prodigal son to learn the father's attitude the WHOLE TIME his prodigal was in a far country.

When your kids are rebellious, do they really hear you? I've seen the opposite occur.

Rebellious children are notorious for not hearing (listening to) their parents.

 

[Nathan]

I see you usually present "if" type hypotheses, and then gradually morph them into factual conclusions.

You need to prove two things to convince me of your theory, even three:
1. someone saved can stop believing in Christ,
2. that his ceasing to believe will result in a loss of salvation,
and
3. that this is a false statement: 'one who is given eternal life will never perish'

The proof should be simple and concise. Please, lets look at one thing at a time so as not to move away from one point or deflect to another issue.

I was presenting what the writer said - very specifically - and was asking a question based on it.

I would be glad to discuss your three points. However, I'm not going to try to convince you of anything. Your free to believe or not.

Your first point is definitely one that is hard to understand, but is told through the NT - even giving examples of people who did so in the OT.

The parable of the sower is probably the most succinct example we have.

Luke 8:13 (ESV) 13 And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.

 

[Nathan]

Are you aware that believers can do all the things that Christ commands but in the power of the flesh, rather than in the power of the Holy Spirit? The human (sin) nature is capable to producing self-righteousness. It can look exactly like the righteousness that comes from the power of the Holy Spirit. Only God can see the difference and reality of which power source is being used. Our own or His power, the Holy Spirit.

Believers are commanded to confess their sins. Why? to be forgiven and CLEANSED. A good question for every believer is; have you been cleansed lately? If not keeping "short accounts" by regular confession of ALL known sins, the believer is NOT forgiven, and NOT CLEANSED/PURIFIED. In that state, there cannot any fellowship. In fact, Paul describes this condition as either grieving the Spirit (Eph 4:30) or quenching the Spirit (1 Thess 5:19).

So, the Christian life is NOT about what one does, or avoids doing. It's about doing ALL the commands in the power of the Spirit, as opposed to the power of the flesh.

This is God's view of the best we can muster (our own righteousness):
Isa 64:6 All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;

I hesitate to correctly translate what "filthy rags" refers to, out of respect for basis decency. But even unbelievers can act very moral, patriotic, etc. That sure doesn't come from the power of the Spirit. It can only come from within the human (sin) nature.

And God is offended by that kind of righteousness.

So, just remember that it isn't what we are supposed to do that pleases God. It's by what power we are doing what we are supposed to do.


Not a shepherd. Do not care what sheep hear or not. Jesus was using 'sheep' as a metaphor for believers who "entered through Him" Jn 10:9.


So what is this supposed to mean? God deals with His children in the same way. He surely knows how to get our attention. Just as you know how to get your kids' attention.

But the direction in your example was fuzzy. It's not God who is out of fellowship with His children. Just review the prodigal son to learn the father's attitude the WHOLE TIME his prodigal was in a far country.

When your kids are rebellious, do they really hear you? I've seen the opposite occur.

Rebellious children are notorious for not hearing (listening to) their parents.

So how does a sinner, who has never believed, hear God for salvation? Do they believe in Christ by their own power?

 

[Mike]

So, please help me out here. I see a clear statement about eternal security in the phrase "will never perish". What else could it mean?

I see that His sheep, who know Him and hear His voice, eternal life that will never be taken away. I see that this promise applies to those who are in and remain in the faith. Such people are His sheep. Why do I see this? Because it follows, and is impacted by, a verse 27 that defines who He is referring to and why. They follow Him.

2 Timothy 4:6-8 supports the need to remain in the faith until the end. If you do, if you run the race, if you fight the fight to the end, given unto you will be something that will never perish.

I am not of the delusion that anything I say will penetrate your wall. You asked what John 10:28 means to me, and I told you. I don't believe you are interpreting that verse correctly when you stand it on its own. I believe you are in error.

 

[GodsGrace]

It does. Clearly


I have.


Why in the world would anyone hide behind the false claim that "common sense" leads to eteral insecurity.

But, if Jesus' promise in John 10:28 isn't enough for those who understand the meaning of words to recognize eternal security, then nothing else in the world will convince them of it. But it is truth, nonetheless.

As I pointed out in another thread, it appears that the main motivating factor for believing that salvation can be lost is emotional, not rational.

This is seen by proponents pulling out the more heinous situation possible; a believer forsaking Christ. That is terrible, no question about it.

But to those folk, it's just too heinous to allow them into heaven. So the ONLY SOLUTION is for God the Father to un-born that child of His, return him to a non-child status and cast him into hell.

But, on the human side of things, what decent parent, who has a rebellious child, would even think of killing their child because of it

So, since "common sense" was brought up, it should be obvious that there is no comparison. If decent parents don't even think of killing their children for rebellion, (and they don't, which is why they are decent), then neither will God do such a HEINOUS thing.

So, in thinking that forsaking Christ is just TOO HEINOUS to allow entrance into heaven, such people ascribe to God the VERY HEINOUS act of killing His own children.

All in spite of the very clear GUARANTEE in Eph 1:13,14 about God's own possession (children) being marked IN CHRIST with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit which guarantees our inheritance (how is THAT not eternal security) for the day of redemption (again, how is THAT not eternal security).

This is an interesting concept.
Which YOU made up, BTW.
Above, which I highlighted in red, you wrote:

So, in thinking that forsaking Christ is just TOO HEINOUS to allow entrance into heaven, such people ascribe to God the VERY HEINOUS act of killing His own children.

First of all we are all children of God. He made everybody. Everyone on earth is His child. Everything God created belongs to Him, the creator.
But we are not all sons of God.
Ephesians 1:4-5

IF we commit the unpardonable sin, then we are forsaking Christ and will end up lost.
Is this also not too heinous?
NO. Because it is OUR choice to forsake Christ.

It is NOT GOD killing His children, or sons, it is THE PERSON killing HIMSELF.
GOD KILLS NO ONE BY HIS OWN CHOICE.
Instead He wills that all be saved.
1 Timothy 2:4

So, those who believe as I do ascribe no heinous act to God.
If a person voluntarily forsakes Christ, he is doing the same action BEFORE being saved or AFTER being saved.
Please explain the difference. If I forsake Christ, I forsake Him --- no matter WHEN.

And it is THAT person that forsakes Christ that is causing his soul to be lost, it is NOT GOD who is the cause.

 

[FreeGrace]

So how does a sinner, who has never believed, hear God for salvation?

I don't understand the question. How does anyone 'hear God'? The same way everyone hears God.

Do they believe in Christ by their own power?

I believe this is a flawed question. As if it takes some certain kind of special power to trust in Christ. God created mankind with a conscience with which to recognize right and wrong. He also created mankind with an intellect with which to understand language.

So, from the conscience and intellect, man IS ABLE to understand the gospel message of grace and decide whether to believe what God says or not.

 

[FreeGrace]

I see that His sheep, who know Him and hear His voice, eternal life that will never be taken away. I see that this promise applies to those who are in and remain in the faith.

Where, exactly, would one see that? From John 10:28 I see that all recipients of eternal life will never perish. I see no exceptions.

Such people are His sheep. Why do I see this? Because it follows, and is impacted by, a verse 27 that defines who He is referring to and why. They follow Him.

If v.27 is a condition for never perishing, then Jesus would have worded v.28 differently, such as:
I give them (My sheep) eternal life, and as long as they keep following Me, they will never perish. But He didn't say that.

The sole condition for never perishing is to receive what He gives, which is eternal life.

2 Timothy 4:6-8 supports the need to remain in the faith until the end. If you do, if you run the race, if you fight the fight to the end, given unto you will be something that will never perish.

What will never perish is our gift of eternal life. What MAY "perish" or lost is rewards that we could have received for faithfulness and obedience.

I am not of the delusion that anything I say will penetrate your wall.

My "wall" is found in the promise of Jesus in Jn 10:28. All recipients of eternal life will never perish. And I do not believe that any verse in the Bible contradicts that promise.

You asked what John 10:28 means to me, and I told you. I don't believe you are interpreting that verse correctly when you stand it on its own. I believe you are in error.

So then, it appears that there are some recipients of eternal life that may perish. Is that correct?

 

[Nathan]

I don't understand the question. How does anyone 'hear God'? The same way everyone hears God.


I believe this is a flawed question. As if it takes some certain kind of special power to trust in Christ. God created mankind with a conscience with which to recognize right and wrong. He also created mankind with an intellect with which to understand language.

So, from the conscience and intellect, man IS ABLE to understand the gospel message of grace and decide whether to believe what God says or not.

You seem to keep not liking my questions. Why is that? Or is that a flawed question too?(opps, did is this another?)

You said that someone who is out of fellowship with God cannot hear Him. So I was asking the question how does a sinner hear the call of God to come to Him for salvation?

Do you think that someone comes to God apart from Him calling them?

There is only two ways a person can possible come to Christ - one, they do so on their own whenever they want - two, they do so based on the power of God when God calls them.

 

[FreeGrace]

This is an interesting concept.
Which YOU made up, BTW.
Above, which I highlighted in red, you wrote:

So, in thinking that forsaking Christ is just TOO HEINOUS to allow entrance into heaven, such people ascribe to God the VERY HEINOUS act of killing His own children.

First of all we are all children of God. He made everybody. Everyone on earth is His child.

In a general sense. But every believer in Christ should know that when one comes to faith in Christ, they are BORN AGAIN, REGENERATED. And become a child of God. This is quite different than just being created by Him.

The Bible teaches the permanent relationship between God the Father and His spiritually born children.

Everything God created belongs to Him, the creator.

But we are not all sons of God.

OK, children of God. Sons of God. Where does that leave the females?

Ephesians 1:4-5

IF we commit the unpardonable sin, then we are forsaking Christ and will end up lost.

Where does the Bible support this opinion?

Do you believe that some recipients of eternal life will perish?

Is this also not too heinous?
NO. Because it is OUR choice to forsake Christ.

This is irrelevant to the promise of Jesus. He said recipients of eternal life will never perish. Do you believe that, or do you believe that some recipients may perish?

 

[FreeGrace]

You seem to keep not liking my questions. Why is that?

They are flawed, and I've explained WHY they are.

Or is that a flawed question too?

No. This one is direct and clear. But unnecessary, since I've explained WHY I said they are flawed.

(opps, did is this another?)

?? Whatever.

You said that someone who is out of fellowship with God cannot hear Him.

Actually, the Bible says it.
Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear.

So I was asking the question how does a sinner hear the call of God to come to Him for salvation?

The answer is how anyone hears anything. By having their ears open and paying attention. Listening.

Do you think that someone comes to God apart from Him calling them?

He's invited everyone to hear the gospel. Titus 2:11

There is only two ways a person can possible come to Christ - one, they do so on their own whenever they want - two, they do so based on the power of God when God calls them.

I don't see power necessarily associated with being called. Where is the "power" in an invitation, which is what "call" means?

 

[Nathan]

This is irrelevant to the promise of Jesus. He said recipients of eternal life will never perish. Do you believe that, or do you believe that some recipients may perish?

Do you believe that someone who leaves the faith still retains eternal life? I believe those who have the life will never perish.

1Jo 5:12
Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.