Except the son of perdition. Doesn't this show that He lost one?
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Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while.
- Thread starter JLB
- Start date
LovethroughDove
Member
LovethroughDove
Member
You cannot trust God's word if he says that he shall lose none, and then you think he can lose people.
chessman
Member
Yes Satan "entered" Judas but well after this point in Judas' history and Jesus' ministry. Jesus, not me, said to the 12, and I quote: "one of you is the Devil' smack dab in the middle of the time JLB claims Judas was a saved, believer.
John 6:70 (LEB) Jesus replied to them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is the devil?”
Take your "Uh, no" up with Jesus and the wording He used to distinguish Judas from the others.
My point was and still is, that Jesus not only knew Judas did not believe from the beginning he also knew who Judas' master was. Right during the time JLB says Judas was saved. Even calling him the devil (or a devil, or being led by The Devil depending on how you interpret Jesus) and distinguishing him from the others well before Judas betrayed Jesus.
Jesus knew Judas did not believe from the beginning AND what master he served. And it wasn't Him.
These facts are clear:
Yes Judas was counted as one of the 12 from early in Jesus' ministry until the betrayal prior to Jesus' death.
Yes Judas was counted as the one of the 12 who was the devil.
LovethroughDove
Member
Thank you and God Bless!
smaller
Member
Humans are not devils nor did Jesus or any speaker of God claim that to be the case. Nor did Jesus come to save devil humans or convert devil humans.
It might appear that the devil who entered Judas was the devil and that humans are not devils.
There is no legitimate scriptural interpretation that makes humans devils any more than Peter was a devil when Jesus spoke to SATAN in Peter in Matt. 16:23.
LovethroughDove
Member
There are people that have the devil as their father. (spiritual father)
John 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.
They have the lie in themselves and not the truth. (God is the Father of truth) and those born again carry the truth in them.
John 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.
They have the lie in themselves and not the truth. (God is the Father of truth) and those born again carry the truth in them.
Scripture does not contradict so how does one reconcile John 6:39 with John 17:12? John 6:39 says He shall lose none that the Father has given Him and yet John 17:12 says He lost one, the son of perdition.
Jim Parker
Member
He received insight from the Holy Spirit when he said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” (Mat 16:16; Mar 8:29)
He was personally discipled by Jesus and personally experienced the power of the kingdom of God when Jesus sent out the 12 to preach.
I'm pretty sure he was aware of who Jesus is but had not yet received the power to be Jesus' witness which didn't come until Pentecost. (Acts 1:8)
iakov the fool
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. John 10:27-29
Did Judas Iscariot, hear the Voice of Jesus and follow Him... for 3 1/2 years?
IOW, Judas Iscariot was of "His sheep", for a while, then fell away.
If Judas was not of "His sheep", then how could he end up being "lost".
12 While I was with them in the world,I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 17:12
JLB
v.28 is clear enough. If Judas had "entered through the door" from John 10:9, then he would have receibed the free gift of eternal life. And Jesus said that those He gives eternal life will never perish. So it should be clear that Judas never believed, because he did perish.
Many followed Jesus, but then balked at the idea of His messiahship. He really followed the money (bag).
There is no evidence that Judas "entered through the door" and was saved.
Why does everyone think of "lost" as only referring to the opposite of being "saved"??
The answer is right before our faces. And thanks for bolding it for me.
"Those whom You GAVE Me I have kept". Period. Jesus actually KEPT those that were given by God. Every one who believes has been given to Christ by God. And Jesus keeps ALL of them.
The "except the son of perdition" was clearly NOT given to Jesus, at least not in the way the saved 11 disciples were given to Jesus.
Otherwise, Scripture would contradict itself. But it doesn't do that.
chessman
Member
Dido. Judas wasn't given to the Son by the Father, obviously. Just as obvious as eternal life means, eternal life-to never perish.
John 17:12 (NASB) While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.
Not everyone does.
John 17:12 (NASB) While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.
People who have eternal life never perish. Judas perished.
Case closed, as the saying goes.
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You will need to provide scripture for such a claim, that Judas never entered the door, which is Jesus Christ.
Judas did exactly the same as the other 11 disciples, which is hear His Voice and follow Him.
What Judas did not do, that the other Apostles did, was continue to the end.
- Judas Iscariot is an example for us, who are living in the time of the end, that we would continue to the end and not betray our brothers or sister's in the Lord, which is the same as betraying Jesus Christ.
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:9-14
And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’ Matthew 25:40
Those who betray even the least of their brethren, have betrayed Jesus Christ.
Judas believed for a while, and continued for 3 1/2 years, and was promoted to Apostle, as well as orained to sit of one of the twelves thrones with the other 11 apostles.
He unfortunately did continue in the faith to the end, but fell away, and ended up betraying Jesus Christ.
JLB
Eternal life is what we have the hope of inheriting, at the end of a faithful life, that has produced fruit unto holiness.
27 Then Peter answered and said to Him, “See, we have left all and followed You. Therefore what shall we have?”
28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first. Matthew 19:27-30
again
God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath. Romans 2:6-8
...eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
and again
26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:26-29
... those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
and again
22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:22-23
... and the end, everlasting life.
Judas didn't continue steadfast to the end, and therefore did not inherit eternal life.
JLB
- This was not spoken to Judas Iscariot.
Jesus spoke this to to Jews who mocked Him, as a "child of fornication", referring to Mary being pregnant before she was married to Joseph.
37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father.”
39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”
Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.”
Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. John 8:37-45
JLB
Judas was not a "devil" as in a wicked "spirit being".
Devil is that verse is: Strong's G1228 - diabolos
- prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely
- a calumniator, false accuser, slanderer,
- metaph. applied to a man who, by opposing the cause of God, may be said to act the part of the devil or to side with him
- Judas like Peter was acting in agreement with the Devil.
22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”
23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Matthew 16:22-23
- Jesus called Peter, Satan, not because Peter was literally the Devil, who is called Satan.
Satan - Strong's G4567 - Satanas
adversary (one who opposes another in purpose or act), the name given to
- the prince of evil spirits, the inveterate adversary of God and Christ
- he incites apostasy from God and to sin
- circumventing men by his wiles
- the worshippers of idols are said to be under his control
- by his demons he is able to take possession of men and inflict them with diseases
- by God's assistance he is overcome
- on Christ's return from heaven he will be bound with chains for a thousand years, but when the thousand years are finished he will walk the earth in yet greater power, but shortly after will be given over to eternal punishment
- a Satan-like man
Peter was "opposing" the will of God, for the Lord and Jesus rebuked him for it.
This does not mean Peter was a son of the devil.
JLB
Judas was not a "devil" as in a wicked "spirit being".
Devil is that verse is: Strong's G1228 - diabolos
- prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely
- a calumniator, false accuser, slanderer,
- metaph. applied to a man who, by opposing the cause of God, may be said to act the part of the devil or to side with him
- Judas like Peter was acting in agreement with the Devil.
22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”
23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Matthew 16:22-23
- Jesus called Peter, Satan, not because Peter was literally the Devil, who is called Satan.
Satan - Strong's G4567 - Satanas
adversary (one who opposes another in purpose or act), the name given to
- the prince of evil spirits, the inveterate adversary of God and Christ
- he incites apostasy from God and to sin
- circumventing men by his wiles
- the worshippers of idols are said to be under his control
- by his demons he is able to take possession of men and inflict them with diseases
- by God's assistance he is overcome
- on Christ's return from heaven he will be bound with chains for a thousand years, but when the thousand years are finished he will walk the earth in yet greater power, but shortly after will be given over to eternal punishment
- a Satan-like man
Peter was "opposing" the will of God, for the Lord and Jesus rebuked him for it.
JLB
Can you go to the post where I said Judas was saved ?
Which post number was it where I said Judas was saved?
Judas believed... for a while.
Those who are saved, receive their salvation in the end, in reality: ie the thing they have hoped for.
JLB
chessman
Member
#1
Maybe for your view it is. I, on the other hand, know the Father and His Son. Thus, I KNOW I have eternal life because it has been given to me to know Him. Just as sure as Christ has been been sent and given authority over all flesh, I have been given eternal life.
John 17:2-3 (LEB) just as you have given him authority over all flesh, in order that he would give eternal life to them—everyone whom you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
John 10:28-29 (LEB) And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish forever, and no one will seize them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can seize them from the Father’s hand.
I have drunken His living water, I will never perish. Judas, on the other hand, perished.
John 4:14 (LEB) But whoever drinks of this water which I will give to him will never be thirsty for eternity, but the water which I will give to him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”
Acts 13:48b (LEB) And all those who were designated for eternal life believed.
It was designated for me to know Him and to believe from a long time ago.
Been meaning to ask; When does it end for you? What makes you think anyone is ever saved or ever truly receives eternal life, given your view? On your view, people could stop believing even after the judgment (in the New Heaven) and well, 'loose' their eternal life.
In fact, since the OP basically makes the claim that Judas was saved for a while, the onus is on the OP for providing Scripture that supports that claim. Which has not been provided.
Jesus said in John 10:28 that those He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. What part of that promise isn't clear?
Please notice that Jesus added no conditions to those He gives eternal life. No "if's". Just the promise that they WILL NEVER PERISH.
It couldn't be more clear than that.
Everyone He spoke to "heard His voice". Doesn't mean salvation.
Please provide which verse says he ever believed, much less for a while. Or quit making claims that the Bible doesn't support.
Pleae provide which verse says he was ever in the faith.