Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while.

[JLB]

What is clear, is that Judas did not believe

64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:64-69

Those disciples who no longer believed, went back and walked with Him no more.

Judas continued with Him, as he did for the last three years, in which at this point, he remained as one of "His disciples", one of "His sheep", until he became lost, by choosing to betray Jesus Christ.

• Question: Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
• Answer: But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

Since they all believed Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, they all continued to follow Him.


The Point: Judas believed for a while, then fell away.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Believing implies doing - it's the doing that tells us who they are.

Judas was chosen to betray Jesus. That's the way it works. Nothing happens in heaven or on earth unless it is God's will. ie. letting people fall away, letting people sin - then he destroys them. The shepherd knows his own sheep - those he kept. Jesus said none were lost except the son of perdition. Yes Judas was a devil.
John 17:6
“I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Re. Peter - denying is not betraying. It's normal, the weakness of the flesh, to deny something if your life is at stake.

Judas chose of his own freewill to betray Jesus, which was foreseen by God from the beginning, and foretold in the scriptures.

I don't see where God chose Judas to betray Jesus, but rather Judas chose to betray Jesus.

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lostexcept the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 17:12


Like the parable of the lost sheep, and the prodigal son, the scripture teaches us that if something is lost, it first belonged to you, then became lost.

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7

• Peter repented, meaning he turned back to the Lord.
• Judas did not.

Both were His sheep, then became lost, one returned, the other did not.


Likewise the prodigal son, was not "chosen" to forsake his father, but chose of his own freewill to leave his father's house for the world.


He became "lost", and dead.

Thankfully he returned, of his own freewill, and like Peter was received again, and restored.

It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’”
Luke 15:32



JLB

 

[IncredibleTransformation]

Judas was appointed, along with the other Apostles, to rule with Him, in the age to come.

28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

The answer is: God foresaw from the beginning, that Judas would betray Jesus.

God didn't force Judas to betray Jesus.

Like Judas, we all have a choice, to believe, and continue to believe, and remain faithful to the end, in which we will receive the crown of life.




JLB

So are you telling me that it was Judas choice that Jesus die on the cross? So Judas was more powerful than Jesus?

 

[smaller]

Mat 26:24 clearly separates what Judas did from what we do every day, otherwise it would be better that none of us were ever born. Hopefully, we can all agree this isn't true.

It's unfortunate when Satan, the devil is not taken into the accounts of what transpired with Judas (or Peter or any of the other disciples.) Satan also had a 'BIRTH.' On the day Satan was created. Lucifer is also termed "a man" in the scriptures, and this is because Satan occupies the flesh of MAN.

Satan is also the "son of perdition." Were the "son of perdition" Judas Paul would have not cited the matter of the "son of perdition" AGAIN in 2 Thes. 2:3 in direct connection with Satan, 2 Thes. 2:8-9.

There has even been a couple of posters who refer to Judas as a devil, which is again, not true. The devil is a devil. Humans are not "devils." I would consider such claims that humans are DEVILS as heresy.

There were 12 disciples chosen:

Simon, Andrew, James (of Zebedee), John, Phillip, Bartholomew, Thomas, Matthew, James (of Alphaeus), Thaddeus, Simon (the Canaanite)

and

Judas Iscariot.

What do we specifically know about Judas in connection with the devil, Satan?

Luke 22:3
Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

John 13:27
And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

John 13:2
And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;

It is entirely pointless to see Judas and NOT SEE the obvious other party.

So, when Jesus said this to the twelve:

John 6:70
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

We might realize that the DEVIL is who Jesus was referring to, NOT Judas.

 

[smaller]

So are you telling me that it was Judas choice that Jesus die on the cross? So Judas was more powerful than Jesus?

Indeed. Judas wasn't even born yet when his role was set BY GOD. Psalm 41.

Judas is not the fulcrum of the crucifixion of Jesus. God Himself was. Acts 4:26-28. It was the WILL OF GOD that crucified His Son, not the will of Judas or any of the other players in the Passion.

Random freewill choice coalescing (essentially a random ACCIDENT) was NOT the fulcrum of the crucifixion of Jesus. It was meticulously carried out in painstaking PRE PLANNED detail and I would posture "existed eternally so" in the Mind of God and His Son. It was never 'dreamed up' on the fly by a series of random freewill choosers.

 

[WIP]

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 17:12

I think the underlined in the above is an important point. If Judas was never a believer and never saved, then how could he be lost? How can something be lost if it wasn't had to begin with?

 

[smaller]

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 17:12

I think the underlined in the above is an important point. If Judas was never a believer and never saved, then how could he be lost? How can something be lost if it wasn't had to begin with?

People mistake Judas for the "son of perdition." Paul lends more light into this matter in 2 Thes. 2:3 when referring to the "son of perdition" AGAIN, meaning it wasn't JUDAS since Judas was dead by that time.

Paul connects the term "son of perdition" in 2 Thes. 2:3 directly to Satan in 2 Thes. 2:8-9.

But this particular subject matter has been so mangled from the pulpits over the years people take it for granted that Judas was the 'son of perdition' without doing their own scriptural homework for accuracy.

 

[JLB]

So are you telling me that it was Judas choice that Jesus die on the cross? So Judas was more powerful than Jesus?

That would be a text book example of a Logical Fallacy know as Strawman.

STRAWMAN:

Misrepresenting someone’s argument to make it easier to attack. By exaggerating, misrepresenting, or just completely fabricating someone's argument, it's much easier to present your own position as being reasonable, but this kind of dishonesty serves to undermine rational debate.

EXAMPLE: After Will said that we should put more money into health and education, Warren responded by saying that he was surprised that Will hates our country so much that he wants to leave it defenseless by cutting military spending.


Please try again, and address my post and what I actually said, rather than your extremely dishonest attempt at building a strawman argument.

A good way to do this, would be to quote the phrase or sentence that I stated, and reply as to why you disagree, while using scripture.


The General Point I am making is:

• Judas chose to betray Jesus Christ, rather than God making him, or forcing him to betray Jesus.
• God foresaw this from the beginning and foretold of it in the OT.
• Judas was appointed and ordained to receive the same authority and rewards as the other apostles, until he fell away and became lost, in which he ended up betraying Jesus Christ.

28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. Matthew 19:28-29


Like Judas, we who believe have been called to inherit eternal life, which is to say, inherit the kingdom of God.


Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. 1 Corinthians 10:12


Let's be like Paul, who was able to say at the end of his life:

7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing. 2 Timothy 4:7-8



JLB

 

[JLB]

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 17:12

I think the underlined in the above is an important point. If Judas was never a believer and never saved, then how could he be lost? How can something be lost if it wasn't had to begin with?

 

[LovethroughDove]

He was never lost because he was never given to Christ. Those who the Father gave him, he kept.

 

[FreeGrace]

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 17:12

I think the underlined in the above is an important point. If Judas was never a believer and never saved, then how could he be lost? How can something be lost if it wasn't had to begin with?

I believe the answer is in what Jesus said to Peter during His washing of the disciples' feet. When Jesus indicated that He must wash Peter's feet in order for Peter to "have a part" with Him, which I believe refers to fellowship, Peter responded by asking for a full bath. And Jesus answered that they (the disciples) were "already clean", but "not all of you", a clear and direct reference to Judas.

The phrase "already clean" refers to salvation. Judas was never saved. This occurred before the devil entered him and he betrayed Jesus.

Judas had every oppotunity to see the deity of Jesus and believe in Him. But he never did. That's the way he was "lost".

 

[atpollard]

• Question: Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
• Answer: But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

Since they all believed Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, they all continued to follow Him.

The Point: Judas believed for a while, then fell away.

The flaw in your 'answer' is that Jesus is infalable, but Peter is not. Peter also said "I will never deny you" ... but that didn't turn out to be true, did it? It has already been pointed out to you, by others, that Jesus corrects Peter's misconception almost immediately: (John 6:70-71) Respectfully, the one of the apostles who was "a devil" had probably not "come to believe and know that you are the Christ".

With respect to following him, it is a sad fact of life that there are tares among the wheat. Not everyone in my church on Sunday believes and is saved. Many proclaim by their life that they have never met Jesus (words to the contrary notwithstanding). [shrug] Jesus promised no less, so why is it a surprise.

Now, Judas may have believed for a while. I have no verse that specifically states that Judas never believed, nor have I a verse that Judas is in hell or Peter is in Heaven. The Bible is silent to me on these matters, probably because they are unessential to my salvation and growth. However, you cannot prove that Judas was saved based on a statement by Peter that was immediately corrected by Jesus. Yes, judas continued to walk with the twelve. Was that as a tare or a sheep predestined to one day wander off? These verses are unclear on the matter, yet even then, Judas "IS a devil" (present tense) and not 'will be led astray by a devil'. To there is at least some evidence that Judas continued to walk with them as a devil ... not my definition of 'saved'.

 

[atpollard]

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 17:12

I think the underlined in the above is an important point. If Judas was never a believer and never saved, then how could he be lost? How can something be lost if it wasn't had to begin with?

GREAT POST! And a worthwhile question.

"and none of them is lost except the son of perdition" means that one of them WAS lost. Isn't that what the word 'except' is used for? I think that this is a HUGE deal. I mean ... John 6:37-40

37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

We have a promise from the lips of Jesus telling us the plan and will of the Father and Son. The Father will give. The chosen will come. The Son will receive and not loose and raise on the last day. The will of the Father is that EVERYONE who looks to the Son and BELIEVES in Him SHALL HAVE eternal life.
Then in John 17:12 we read that there is an "except" ...
The will of the Father has an except.
The will come has an except.
The Son loosing none has an except.
That seems like a pretty big deal to me (I don't know about you).

So the question being asked in this topic is really "did Judas ever believe?"
If he did, then Jesus lied and God failed. The will of the Father was not carried out. The Son did not loose none (as he said in John 6:39).

That seems like foolishness.
The son of perdition was never saved and lost. He was not given to Jesus to keep for salvation on the last day, he was given to Jesus to fulfill scripture. To betray him. To be the son of perdition. That is why it was so important to mention this exception to the will of the Father that none given to the Son should be lost. Judas was given to the Son specifically to be lost. The betrayer, loved by Christ. His loss was not an accident. The most likely explanation for loosing one given to Jesus and preserving God's will in John 6:40 is that Judas never believed.

Where is the evidence of belief? Peter's words do not prove Judas heart. Judas actions condemn Judas heart.

Thank you for asking the question.
Judas was not saved and lost, he was given to Jesus to be lost rather than saved ... that is what makes him the son of perdition.

 

[smaller]

I find it quite startling that several posters here have claimed Judas, a human being, was a devil.

I might hope any believer could understand the difference between a human being and a/the devil. But I think there has been at least 4 posters in this thread who don't have this quite basic "essential" distinction between humans and devils.

When we have scriptures that show us a difference between Judas and Satan who entered him, it did not make Judas Satan or the devil or a devil. Judas was STILL a human being, NOT a devil.

Luke 22:3
Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

There are two separate and distinct from each other parties in the above. Judas and Satan. They are not the same parties.

John 13:27
And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

There are two separate and distinct from each other parties in the above. Judas and Satan. They are not the same parties.

Matthew 16:23
But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

There are two separate and distinct from each other parties in the above. PETER and Satan. They are not the same parties.

There is some very basic theological math to be engaged in the above examples. You have to be able to see, count and account for TWO.

Anyone dissecting these matters on the basis of Judas alone is just not paying attention to the details.

 

[atpollard]

People mistake Judas for the "son of perdition." Paul lends more light into this matter in 2 Thes. 2:3 when referring to the "son of perdition" AGAIN, meaning it wasn't JUDAS since Judas was dead by that time.

Paul connects the term "son of perdition" in 2 Thes. 2:3 directly to Satan in 2 Thes. 2:8-9.

But this particular subject matter has been so mangled from the pulpits over the years people take it for granted that Judas was the 'son of perdition' without doing their own scriptural homework for accuracy.

I reread that in context several times. In Jesus Prayer of John 17, John 17:12 makes no sense speaking of the "son of perdition" as anyone other than Judas. Jesus is praying very specifically for his disciples and commenting that while Jesus was in the world, Jesus protected the disciples. Now that Jesus is leaving, he is calling on the Father to protect the disciples. Then Jesus mentions that he has lost none of the disciples that the Father has trusted to him EXCEPT one ... "the son of perdition".

How can Jesus be claiming that the Father gave him Satan as a disciple and Jesus was unable to keep him like all of the other disciples ... and this not be a reference to Judas?

Color me confused ...

'son of perdition' seems to be a term for anyone who does the work of Satan in actively opposing the plan of God.
Not merely the lost, but the 'first string' for the other side.
Judas was not the ONLY son of perdition, but he was the son of perdition in John 17:12

 

[smaller]

I reread that in context several times. In Jesus Prayer of John 17, John 17:12 makes no sense speaking of the "son of perdition" as anyone other than Judas.

Paul trotted out the "son of perdition" specifically in 2 Thes. 2 long after Judas was DEAD.

Therefore...was it Judas that Paul refers to as the "son of perdition?" Nope!

Jesus is praying very specifically for his disciples and commenting that while Jesus was in the world, Jesus protected the disciples. Now that Jesus is leaving, he is calling on the Father to protect the disciples. Then Jesus mentions that he has lost none of the disciples that the Father has trusted to him EXCEPT one ... "the son of perdition".

See the above.

How can Jesus be claiming that the Father gave him Satan as a disciple

Jesus didn't. Jesus was ALSO referring to "Satan" as the "son of perdition" just as PAUL DOES in 2 Thes. 2:3 - 2 Thes. 2:8-9.

Judas was not the party in question.

and Jesus was unable to keep him like all of the other disciples ... and this not be a reference to Judas?

Color me confused ...

IF you are seeing only Judas in the equations I'd suggest scripture does NOT see only Judas. Scripture presents to us Judas and SATAN who entered Judas no differently than Satan speaking from Peter in Matt. 16:23 and Jesus ADDRESSING SATAN in Peter.

Jesus called JUDAS His friend. But SATAN in Judas was NOT the friend of Jesus.

I hope you see the simple fact that Jesus is dealing with TWO separate and distinct from each others entities, Judas and Satan in Judas. Without this very basic distinction people see only Judas. That's NOT how scriptures present this matter.

'son of perdition' seems to be a term for anyone who does the work of Satan in actively opposing the plan of God.
Not merely the lost, but the 'first string' for the other side.
Judas was not the ONLY son of perdition, but he was the son of perdition in John 17:12

What we see in Judas or what we see with Peter is IDENTICAL to what Jesus claimed to be a fact in Mark 4:15.

Accurate dissections of scriptural matters mandates that we take TWO parties into account.

I have yet to see this done in this thread.

But a far more alarming sight is that of believers who think human beings are DEVILS.

 

[atpollard]

I find it quite startling that several posters here have claimed Judas, a human being, was a devil.

I might hope any believer could understand the difference between a human being and a/the devil. But I think there has been at least 4 posters in this thread who don't have this quite basic "essential" distinction between humans and devils.

Better add Jesus and the Apostle John ...

John 6:70-71
70 Jesus answered them, "Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?" 71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Since I just quoted Jesus, It would be more edifying if you would please explain what Jesus really meant.

 

[smaller]

Better add Jesus and the Apostle John ...

John 6:70-71
70 Jesus answered them, "Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?" 71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Since I just quoted Jesus, It would be more edifying if you would please explain what Jesus really meant.

Well of course John was referring to Judas, and SATAN who entered him.

John saw the connection between SIN and THE DEVIL quite pinpointedly. 1 John 3:8.

John did not see just Judas NOR did John claim "human beings" are devils. To me that kind of sight is off the rails, people as devils.

 

[atpollard]

deleted

 

[MarkT]

Judas chose of his own freewill to betray Jesus, which was foreseen by God from the beginning, and foretold in the scriptures.

I don't see where God chose Judas to betray Jesus, but rather Judas chose to betray Jesus.

God made him. So what does that imply? Judas, the son of perdition, was predestined before he was even born. The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble. Pr. 16:4
The LORD has done what he purposed Lam. 2:17

Nevertheless, if Judas was a devil, the love of God was not in him.

John 8:44
You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

When was the devil ever righteous? When did his sons become righteous?

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 17:12

Like the parable of the lost sheep, and the prodigal son, the scripture teaches us that if something is lost, it first belonged to you, then became lost.

Judas was not of God. Like Jesus said, Judas was a devil, and Jesus knew he was not of God. In spirit he was a devil.

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7

• Peter repented, meaning he turned back to the Lord.
• Judas did not.

Both were His sheep, then became lost, one returned, the other did not.

How can you say Judas was his sheep when Jesus said he was a devil? Jesus also called the scribes and the Pharisees a brood of vipers, sons of the Serpent of old.

Matthew 12:34
Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
Matthew 23:33
Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?

Likewise the prodigal son, was not "chosen" to forsake his father, but chose of his own freewill to leave his father's house for the world.


He became "lost", and dead.

Thankfully he returned, of his own freewill, and like Peter was received again, and restored.

It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’”
Luke 15:32



JLB

The prodigal son parable doesn't have anything to do with Judas or freewill. The prodigal son is a son of God who returns. Judas was a devil, a son of the evil one.

Revelation 12:9
So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Jesus said the everlasting fire was prepared for the devil and his angels. Matthew 25:41
“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

I figure Judas was such an angel.