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Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while.

The scriptures and context, distinguish who were among those who didn't believe, by using a word describing "more than one", they.
The Scripture records Jesus telling the disciples that there are some among YOU who do not believe, way before it became apparent that Judas did not believe and betrayed Jesus.

John 6:64 (LEB) But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.

Judas Iscariot is the biblical example, of a person who believes for a while, then falls away; ie losing their opportunity at receiving salvation in the end, by being faithful unto death.

Nah, Judas Iscariot is a Biblical example of a person who walks the walk and talks the talk and fooled someone into thinking he believed in Him but that Jesus knew did not believe in Him from the beginning.
 
Just curious. Do you think it is possible to believe and still betray Jesus at some point? I do because even though one is a Christian one can still sin and as I understand it, sin in and of itself is a betrayal.

When I read John 6:64 I don't necessarily tie "those who did not believe" directly with "who it was who betrayed Him." The conjunction "and" could be read in two ways. It could be locking the two statements together as you have been expressing but it could also be used to provide additional information such as to use "as well as." Is there any other Scripture that can clarify this?
 
Just curious. Do you think it is possible to believe and still betray Jesus at some point? I do because even though one is a Christian one can still sin and as I understand it, sin in and of itself is a betrayal.

I'm not aware that any of us at any time are 'sinless.' So the notion begs the question of whether or not that happened to start with (sinlessness.)

We are often misled to think that sin is an external action. It's not. Sin dwells in our flesh and it's a permanent condition of the flesh while the flesh is alive and kicking. Romans 7:17 & 20. As is "evil present" with us, a permanent condition of fact.

Sin is not something we do from time to time.
When I read John 6:64 I don't necessarily tie "those who did not believe" directly with "who it was who betrayed Him." The conjunction "and" could be read in two ways. It could be locking the two statements together as you have been expressing but it could also be used to provide additional information such as to use "as well as." Is there any other Scripture that can clarify this?

What the sight above might address is when does indwelling sin and evil present EVER cooperate with Gods Word?

We know the Spirit is against the flesh and vice versa. Gal. 5:17. This condition of fact doesn't change after salvation.

We might even accidentally think "our sins" are better than the sins of Judas. And Romans 3:9 or 1 Tim. 1:15 should quickly prove otherwise.

Our sins are NOT better than the sins of Judas.
 
Just curious. Do you think it is possible to believe and still betray Jesus at some point? I do because even though one is a Christian one can still sin and as I understand it, sin in and of itself is a betrayal.
Yes. The Bible tells us that Peter, who had already been told by Jesus that he was "already clean" (John 13:10), later denied Him 3 times.

To deny Him is to betray Him.
 
When I read John 6:64 I don't necessarily tie "those who did not believe" directly with "who it was who betrayed Him." The conjunction "and" could be read in two ways. It could be locking the two statements together as you have been expressing but it could also be used to provide additional information such as to use "as well as." Is there any other Scripture that can clarify this?
Sure. v71 clarifies it (if it weren't clear enough already from the fact that Jesus says some among YOU do not believe versus the crowd of followers.)

John 6:70-71 Jesus replied to them [the 12], “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is the devil?” Now he was speaking about Judas son of Simon Iscariot, because this one—one of the twelve—was going to betray him.

Remember, Jesus says this to the 12 after the crowd left them but before Judas betrayed Him. Get it??? Jesus said Judas was the Devil during the time JLB claims Judas was a saved believer.
 
Jesus said Judas was the Devil during the time

Uh, no. Men are not devils. Scriptures clearly show us that Satan "entered" Judas. They were never the same "entity." Luke 22:3, John 13:27, both statements of fact in full accord with Mark 4:15.
 
Just curious. Do you think it is possible to believe and still betray Jesus at some point? I do because even though one is a Christian one can still sin and as I understand it, sin in and of itself is a betrayal.

When I read John 6:64 I don't necessarily tie "those who did not believe" directly with "who it was who betrayed Him." The conjunction "and" could be read in two ways. It could be locking the two statements together as you have been expressing but it could also be used to provide additional information such as to use "as well as." Is there any other Scripture that can clarify this?


Yes sir.

Of course, "those" who didn't believe, was referring to "those" [plural], "disciples" [plural], who chose to walk away from Him, and didn't follow Him any more.

Those clearly refers to a group of disciples, not an individual, single disciple; ie Judas Iscariot.


Furthermore, the scriptures separate for us, this group of disciples who didn't believe anymore, [and walked away] because of the hard saying, from the twelve, [who chose to continue with Him].

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”

61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?” John 6:60-67


  • Those who didn't believe, walk away and no longer walked with Him.
  • Those who continued to believe, continued to walk with Him.

Then the scripture drives this home by this next passage -

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:68-69

Clearly Judas was among the twelve, whom the scriptures teach us that they had come to believe...


Judas Iscariot believed for a while, then fell away.



JLB
 
hello Jim Parker, dirtfarmer here

Do you think that Peter truly understood who Jesus was when he denied him those 3 times?

16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

20 Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ.
Matthew 16:16-20



Do you believe what the scripture says, about Peter?


JLB
 
The Scripture records Jesus telling the disciples that there are some among YOU who do not believe, way before it became apparent that Judas did not believe and betrayed Jesus.

John 6:64 (LEB) But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.


The scripture shows us that Judas believed and continued to follow the Lord, even when the other disciples went back from following Him.

64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. John 6:64


The scriptures teach us that Judas was among those who had come to believe that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God.

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:68-69



Judas believed for a while, then fell away.


JLB
 
Will this work? ...

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

... Although I am not sure that I would say that 'Jesus empowered them', but aparently they were empowered.
[Just like Judas?]


And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.
Matthew 10:1-4


Jesus Christ empowered Judas Iscariot to preach the Gospel to the lost, to heal diseases, to raise the dead, and to cast out devils.

Judas Iscariot heard the Voice of Jesus and responded to the call, in which he followed Him for 3 1/2 years, and was referred to by Jesus,
"My disciple", and "My sheep", up until he "became" a guide to those who arrested Jesus.


Matthew 10, continued -

16 “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. 17 But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues.18 You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; 20 for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.

Judas was not always a "guide" for the wicked, but became a guide, became a betrayer of Jesus.

Judas was faithful to follow Jesus Christ for 3 1/2 years, then he fell away, in which he became a guide to those who arrested Him.


“Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; Acts 1:16


JLB
 
16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

20 Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ.
Matthew 16:16-20



Do you believe what the scripture says, about Peter?


JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

If you are referring to Peter being the foundation of the Church, the scriptures do not state that.
 
hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

If you are referring to Peter being the foundation of the Church, the scriptures do not state that.


Brother,

your question was... Do you think that Peter truly understood who Jesus was when he denied him those 3 times?


Here is what the scriptures teach us about what Peter understood.

He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Matthew 16:15-16



JLB
 
Believing implies doing - it's the doing that tells us who they are.

Judas was chosen to betray Jesus. That's the way it works. Nothing happens in heaven or on earth unless it is God's will. ie. letting people fall away, letting people sin - then he destroys them. The shepherd knows his own sheep - those he kept. Jesus said none were lost except the son of perdition. Yes Judas was a devil.
John 17:6
I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Re. Peter - denying is not betraying. It's normal, the weakness of the flesh, to deny something if your life is at stake.
 
Believing implies doing - it's the doing that tells us who they are.

Judas was chosen to betray Jesus. That's the way it works. Nothing happens in heaven or on earth unless it is God's will. ie. letting people fall away, letting people sin - then he destroys them. The shepherd knows his own sheep - those he kept. Jesus said none were lost except the son of perdition. Yes Judas was a devil.
John 17:6
I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Re. Peter - denying is not betraying. It's normal, the weakness of the flesh, to deny something if your life is at stake.
This was my thought when I read WIP's question. In my opinion, it's a different level of betrayal to premeditatedly hand the Lord over to the authorities who sought to bring Him down as opposed to fearing for your life and disassociating yourself from Him in a moment of weakness.

Don't get me wrong. The latter is still a horrible thing, but planning and plotting against Him? I can say unequivocally, I would never do that as a believer.

Mat 26:24 clearly separates what Judas did from what we do every day, otherwise it would be better that none of us were ever born. Hopefully, we can all agree this isn't true.
 
This was my thought when I read WIP's question. In my opinion, it's a different level of betrayal to premeditatedly hand the Lord over to the authorities who sought to bring Him down as opposed to fearing for your life and disassociating yourself from Him in a moment of weakness.

Yes, agreed.

Since he came back to the Lord and repented, as well as these words from scripture.

31 And the Lord said, “Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren.” Luke 22:31-32



JLB
 
Believing implies doing - it's the doing that tells us who they are.

Judas was chosen to betray Jesus. That's the way it works. Nothing happens in heaven or on earth unless it is God's will. ie. letting people fall away, letting people sin - then he destroys them. The shepherd knows his own sheep - those he kept. Jesus said none were lost except the son of perdition. Yes Judas was a devil.
John 17:6
I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Re. Peter - denying is not betraying. It's normal, the weakness of the flesh, to deny something if your life is at stake.


Judas chose of his own freewill to betray Jesus, which was foreseen by God from the beginning, and foretold in the scriptures.

I don't see where God chose Judas to betray Jesus, but rather Judas chose to betray Jesus.

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 17:12


Like the parable of the lost sheep, and the prodigal son, the scripture teaches us that if something is lost, it first belonged to you, then became lost.

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7

  • Peter repented, meaning he turned back to the Lord.
  • Judas did not.

Both were His sheep, then became lost, one returned, the other did not.


Likewise the prodigal son, was not "chosen" to forsake his father, but chose of his own freewill to leave his father's house for the world.


He became "lost", and dead.

Thankfully he returned, of his own freewill, and like Peter was received again, and restored.

It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’”
Luke 15:32



JLB
 
John 20:22
19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.

21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”


I propose that this is the moment when the disciples "received the Holy Spirit". This event is a watershed moment for the church and all believers. It occurs after the death of Judas and after the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Prior to this, the Holy Spirit operated, for lack of a better term, under Old Testament mode and came on a person for a season to empower them for a task. The OT is full of stories like Moses wearing a veil so the people would not see the glory of God fading from his face. (2 Cor 3:13) Moses was anointed by the Spirit for a task, not indwelled by the Holy Spirit as a deposit guaranteeing his inheritance. (Eph 1:14) There are even painfully clear cases, like King Saul and Samson, where an anointing is given and taken away. (1 Samuel 15) Less you assume that anyone that God uses to deliver his message is saved, do you expect to see Balam's donkey in heaven worshiping the Christ?

Perhaps Jesus did anoint Judas with power along with the other disciples. That is a question above my pay grade. What is clear, is that Judas did not believe and 'the son of perdition', by the definition of "perdition", will not be in heaven. It is also seems to me that the anointing prior to John 20:22 was like the Baptism of John, the final acts of the Old Covenant paving the way for the new covenant ... made possible with the words "It is finished." (John 19:30).

Judas left before the arrival of the new covenant. Judas never tasted the Kingdom. Judas was a blind man with a front row, seat of honor at the greatest event of all time, and never saw the parade. Judas was too busy counting silver pieces. How many people do we meet every day just like Judas?
 
The OT is full of stories like Moses wearing a veil so the people would not see the glory of God fading from his face. (2 Cor 3:13) Moses was anointed by the Spirit for a task, not indwelled by the Holy Spirit as a deposit guaranteeing his inheritance.

10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11


JLB
 
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