Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while.

[GodsGrace]

G'day Wondering,
calvin here.
Sorry, I was not reasonably clear; my thinking is focused on v27 "Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord."
So who do we know that fits this? Judas certainly does.
I don't want to drag this thread off topic, so I wont discuss 1Cor 11 here, but could defend my thinking on a different thread
Blessings for you and yours, my dear sister.

Thanks Calvin.
I never thought of this.

Blessings to you also
Wondering

 

[MarkT]

But we do know, Brother. Satan knew exactly who Jesus was, and so did Judas. There's no doubt about this, Judas was there from the beginning of Jesus's ministry and saw Him perform signs and miracles too, how could he not believe?

So it probably was a choice by Judas to betray Jesus. God is eternal and can see the end from the beginning so seen that a man named Judas would have a dark heart and choose to do these things. That God just capitalized on it and used it to effect His will doesn't mean that Judas had no choice in the matter. God does not tempt man.

The proof is scriptural, in James 2:19

Maybe he chose not to believe.

 

[smaller]

All God's/Jesus' words are SURE WORD of God, repeated or not.

I feel pretty safe in saying there was no other choice available for Judas.

The reason He said "truly, truly" here was not because it was necessarily to occur very quickly nor because Judas had no "alternate choice". It was because, As the Text says, Jesus was "testifying" about what Judas was going to do before it happened.

There are many examples of double word or phrases of Gods Words deployed in the scriptures. They are double or repeated for very specific reasons of emphasis to take note of. Just as the word "behold" is deployed for similar reasons.

As in the case of Judas and the other Apostles, here:

Matthew 10:16
Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

In this case it has very specific reason.

Knowing what will occur and testifying to others about it does not indicate Judas had no alternate choices.

Nobody breaks "as it is written."

1 Chronicles 21:10-12 (LEB) “Go, you must speak to David, saying, ‘Thus says Yahweh: “Three choices I offer to you. Choose one of them for yourself that I will do to you.”’” So Gad came to David and said to him, “Thus says Yahweh: ‘Choose for yourself: whether three years of famine or three months of devastation by your enemies while the sword of your enemies overtakes you, or three days of the sword of Yahweh, with disease in the land and the angel of Yahweh destroying throughout all the territory in Israel.’ So now, see what word I should return to my sender.” ​

Clearly, God gives people alternate choices.

Scriptures do not deal with "only man." The Word also engages the adversaries of man, in man, in adverse fashions. 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2. Just as the Word dealt adversarily with Satan in Judas.

Some might even consider Judas finally figured out Satan was pawning him internally, and OFFED himself to remove his flesh from that hold. In Peter's case we might even see that the LIGHT finally DAWNED on him of the same fact, and he wept.

Mark 14:72
And the second time the cock crew. And Peter called to mind the word that Jesus said unto him, Before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice. And when he thought thereon, he wept.

Peter couldn't have "chosen" to do otherwise either, because these matters never were just about these men as individuals to begin with. Mark 4:15 happened to ALL of them. And no, there was no choice for this NOT to happen:

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Those who don't think this is the case aren't thinking very clearly:

Matt. 15:19-20, Mark 7:21-23, Matt. 5:28, Romans 7:7-13, Romans 7:17-21, Gal. 3:13-14, Gal. 3:22, Gal. 5:17, 1 John 1:8, 1 John 3:8

 

[smaller]

John 10
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one.

Not if he did not receive eternal life as John 10:28 promised Jesus would give to all of his sheep.

Sheep don't create themselves. They are 'CALLED' by Jesus as such, as is the case with Judas. Assuredly A SHEEP by Jesus' Own Determination, not yours, not mine. Matt. 16:23. Judas was also called friend, disciple, Apostle and DID the Will and Determination of GOD HIMSELF by the resistance that transpired.

Acts 4:26-28.

 

[MarkT]

Sheep don't create themselves. They are 'CALLED' by Jesus as such, as is the case with Judas. Assuredly A SHEEP by Jesus' Own Determination, not yours, not mine. Matt. 16:23. Judas was also called friend, disciple, Apostle and DID the Will and Determination of GOD HIMSELF by the resistance that transpired.

Acts 4:26-28.

Was Judas an evil doer? How about the Jews who wanted to stone Jesus? Were they evil doers? How about the scribes and The Pharisees?

You see Satan everywhere, but you don't see his children.

 

[smaller]

Was Judas an evil doer?

Everyone is defiled by evil thoughts:

Matt. 15:19-20, Mark 7:21-23, Matt. 5:28, Romans 7:21

There is a big fat fairy tale notion that floats around in some christian minds that 'our sin' is somehow better than the sin of Judas. It ain't. Romans 3:9, Gal. 3:22

How about the Jews who wanted to stone Jesus? Were they evil doers? How about the scribes and The Pharisees?

Jesus didn't see "just people." Acts 26:18, Romans 11:32, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2, 1 John 3:8.

Nor did Jesus see "just Judas." Mark 4:15, Luke 8:12, Luke 22:3, John 13:27, 1 John 3:8

You see Satan everywhere, but you don't see his children.

Satan has a kingdom and a family. They are NOT humans.

People who try to figure things out about "the people" of Israel of the Bible should learn how GOD sees them. All of Israel are declared to be 'the children of God' in Deut. 14:1, Psalm 82:6, and shown by Jesus to have ONE FATHER who is in heaven. Matt. 23:9. Was Judas accounted as such in these scriptures? Assuredly so!

We'd be wiser to consider our own sins before we EVER rail on the sins of Judas. Paul considered himself the chief of sinners after salvation. 1 Tim. 1:15. And I'm pretty sure there were a LOT of other potential "worse" sinners as the typical believer might see.

But, Paul saw these matters "accurately" just as Jesus does, and did not see "just people." Not even in his own case. 2 Cor. 12:7.

 

[FreeGrace]

Maybe he chose not to believe.

Exactly. Like all the other unbelieving Pharisees who saw His miracles.

John 10:25
Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, NIV
John 10:38
But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." NIV

 

[JLB]

The devil HAD ALREADY put it into Judas' heart.
John 13:2

It didn't happen at that moment.

As I said,This is around the time when Judas conceived the idea to betray Jesus.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Obviously Jesus Directed His Words to Satan, speaking in Peter.

He didn't say "get thee behind me PETER." Matt. 16:23.

Jesus was addressing Peter

adversary (one who opposes another in purpose or act), the name given to

1. the prince of evil spirits, the inveterate adversary of God and Christ
   
   1. he incites apostasy from God and to sin
   2. circumventing men by his wiles
   3. the worshippers of idols are said to be under his control
   4. by his demons he is able to take possession of men and inflict them with diseases
   5. by God's assistance he is overcome
   6. on Christ's return from heaven he will be bound with chains for a thousand years, but when the thousand years are finished he will walk the earth in yet greater power, but shortly after will be given over to eternal punishment
      
2. a Satan-like man
   

• Peter was "opposing" the will of God for Jesus, when he tried to prevent Jesus from going to the cross.

as Jesus said to Peter - for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”


He didn't say... you are mindful of the things of devils, or mindful of evil, or mindful of demons.


He said to Peter - ...but the things of men.”


No you must prove that Satan entered Peter, from the scriptures.



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

smaller

Hi Smaller,

Regarding a previous post of yours where you say that God causes all to happen so that we don't really have a free will,
I'd like to point out that John 13:2 states that satan put the thought into the heart of Judas to betray Jesus.

God allows all to happen.
He does not cause all to happen.

In Judas' case we could argue if he could have NOT acted as prophesied.
In every other case, we can choose to follow satan or to follow God.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

P.S.
Satan put the thought into Judas.
He did not enter Judas.
As satan did not enter Peter...

 

[MarkT]

Everyone is defiled by evil thoughts:

Matt. 15:19-20, Mark 7:21-23, Matt. 5:28, Romans 7:21

There is a big fat fairy tale notion that floats around in some christian minds that 'our sin' is somehow better than the sin of Judas. It ain't. Romans 3:9, Gal. 3:22

Was Judas a Christian?
John 17:12
While I was with them, I kept them in thy name, which thou hast given me; I have guarded them, and none of them is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.

 

[JLB]

John 13:21-26 (LEB) When he had said these things, Jesus was troubled in spirit and testified and said, “Truly, truly I say to you that one of you will betray me.” The disciples began looking at one another, uncertain about whom he was speaking. One of his disciples—the one whom Jesus loved—was reclining close beside Jesus. So Simon Peter gestured for this one to inquire who it was about whom he was speaking. He leaned back accordingly against Jesus’ chest and said to him, “Lord, who is it?” Jesus replied, “It is he to whom I dip the piece of bread and give it to him.” Then after dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas son of Simon Iscariot.
​

​

Yes, and that saying (The Gospel that saves believers in IT) was concealed to them at that time when your opinion is Judas was saved, per the OP's title.

Looking at John 13:21-26, is it your opinion that Jesus had loved Judas Iscariot at anytime prior to this time (the hour that Satan entered Judas)?

Judas believed, and therefore he followed Jesus.


Judas was promoted to Apostle, and empowered to preach the Gospel to the lost, heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out devils.

Can you show from the scriptures whereby Jesus ever promoted an unbeliever to Apostle, and empowered them to preach the Gospel to the lost, heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out devils?

I have asked you several times.

The scriptures says, these are the signs that follow those who believe: And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; Mark 16:17



JLB

 

[JLB]

P.S.
Satan put the thought into Judas.
He did not enter Judas.
As satan did not enter Peter...

Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread drew near, which is called Passover. 2 And the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might kill Him, for they feared the people.

3 Then Satan entered Judas, surnamed Iscariot, who was numbered among the twelve. 4 So he went his way and conferred with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray Him to them. 5 And they were glad, and agreed to give him money. 6 So he promised and sought opportunity to betray Him to them in the absence of the multitude. Luke 22:1-6

 

[smaller]

Jesus was addressing Peter

adversary (one who opposes another in purpose or act), the name given to

1. the prince of evil spirits, the inveterate adversary of God and Christ
   1. he incites apostasy from God and to sin
   2. circumventing men by his wiles
   3. the worshippers of idols are said to be under his control
   4. by his demons he is able to take possession of men and inflict them with diseases
   5. by God's assistance he is overcome
   6. on Christ's return from heaven he will be bound with chains for a thousand years, but when the thousand years are finished he will walk the earth in yet greater power, but shortly after will be given over to eternal punishment
2. a Satan-like man

• Peter was "opposing" the will of God for Jesus, when he tried to prevent Jesus from going to the cross.

as Jesus said to Peter - for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

He didn't say... you are mindful of the things of devils, or mindful of evil, or mindful of demons.

He said to Peter - ...but the things of men.”

No you must prove that Satan entered Peter, from the scriptures.

JLB

What your positional claims show is a blatant disregard of the facts of involvement of a party that is neither Peter nor Judas. As you demonstrate continually, for example in forcing to see only Peter and completely disregarding Satan.

The same flaw or error in reasoning your positions make when addressing Judas, that your position shows in this exchange with Wondering:

wondering said: ↑
The devil HAD ALREADY put it into Judas' heart.
John 13:2

It didn't happen at that moment.

As I said,This is around the time when Judas conceived the idea to betray Jesus.
JLB

Now you and I can read that Jesus clearly addressed Satan when speaking to Peter. And that Satan both entered Judas and put betrayal into the heart of Judas, again openly showing the involvement of Satan in both events.

Yet your position has ZERO accounting for the fact of Satan's workings in either men. Your position sees just Peter and your position sees just Judas and it's like SATAN is not there to be seen in your positions.

And you ask prove Satan is there when Satan is there to see in front of both of our eyes. And we can look at numerous scriptural citings of Satan's entry into the heart of man, Mark 4:15, all the other seed parables, Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2, 1 John 3:8, etc, yet your positions remain blinded to these facts of Satan's involvements.

And your positions might someday understand that blindness to factor in the other party, Satan, itself IS, by scriptural conveyance, a working of that blinding spirit.

Your sights still see just Judas:

-Judas conceived the idea to betray Jesus.

And scripture says:

John 13:
2 The evening meal was in progress, and the devil had already prompted Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, to betray Jesus.

If we study the scriptures to find understandings, and have no account whatsoever for the details, it's worthless reasoning. There is Peter and Satan. There is Judas and Satan.

And, beyond this, we know for no uncertain fact that God Himself WILLED to turn all these people against His Own Son:

Acts 4:
26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Your positional analysis has a repeated problem to bring only people to the table of "attempted" understandings, and invariably ignores the roles of Satan and God who are both clearly involved.

Your positions have no factors for either God or Satan, and your position just rails on Judas. It will ring hollow every time for a lack of proper accounting.

 

[JLB]

Was Judas a Christian?
John 17:12
While I was with them, I kept them in thy name, which thou hast given me; I have guarded them, and none of them is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.

• Judas was one of His sheep, and not considered as a wolf. He was sent to the lost sheep, along with the others.

5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give...16 “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. Matthew 10:5-8,16



Judas was at one time, one of His disciples, one of His Apostles, then "became" a guide...

He "became" a guide to those who arrested Jesus, and murdered Him; meaning he wasn't always a "guide", but rather he became a guide... he became a betrayer.



Likewise, the scripture warns us that there will be many who will be betrayer's, during the last days tribulation.

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:9-14


Jesus says when you do something to one of His people, then you do it to Him.

And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’ Matthew 25:40

and again

3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?” 5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”

Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”
Acts 9:3-5



If we betray other Christians, the way Judas betrayed Jesus, because our love has grown cold, then we are guilty of betraying Jesus Christ.



JLB

 

[chessman]

This is around the time when Judas conceived the idea to betray Jesus.

Jesus had already referred to Judas as the devil years before Judas betrayed Jesus.

John 6:70-71 (LEB) Jesus replied to them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is the devil?” Now he was speaking about Judas son of Simon Iscariot, because this one—one of the twelve—was going to betray him.
​

Can you show from the scriptures whereby Jesus ever promoted an unbeliever to Apostle, and empowered them to preach the Gospel to the lost, heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out devils?

​

Yes, absolutely. After Jesus' ressurection an unbelieving man (see Acts 9:1) was chosen by Jesus, promoted to Apostle and empowered to do all this.

Acts 9:15-16 (LEB)

But the Lord said to him, “Go, because this man [an unbeliever, v9] is my chosen instrument to carry my name before Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel. For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.”
​

Is it your opinion that Jesus loved Judas Iscariot at anytime prior to the hour that Satan entered Judas?

​

 

[JLB]

What your positional claims show is a blatant disregard of the facts of involvement of a party that is neither Peter nor Judas. As you demonstrate continually, for example in forcing to see only Peter and completely disregarding Satan.

The same flaw or error in reasoning your positions make when addressing Judas, that your position shows in this exchange with Wondering:
Now you and I can read that Jesus clearly addressed Satan when speaking to Peter. And that Satan both entered Judas and put betrayal into the heart of Judas, again openly showing the involvement of Satan in both events.

Yet your position has ZERO accounting for the fact of Satan's workings in either men. Your position sees just Peter and your position sees just Judas and it's like SATAN is not there to be seen in your positions.

And you ask prove Satan is there when Satan is there to see in front of both of our eyes. And we can look at numerous scriptural citings of Satan's entry into the heart of man, Mark 4:15, all the other seed parables, Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2, 1 John 3:8, etc, yet your positions remain blinded to these facts of Satan's involvements.

And your positions might someday understand that blindness to factor in the other party, Satan, itself IS, by scriptural conveyance, a working of that blinding spirit.

Your sights still see just Judas:

All you need to do, is show the scripture that says, Satan entered Peter, in order to prove your point that Satan was in Peter, when Jesus addressed Peter.




JLB

 

[JLB]

And scripture says:

John 13:
2 The evening meal was in progress, and the devil had already prompted Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, to betray Jesus.

If we study the scriptures to find understandings, and have no account whatsoever for the details, it's worthless reasoning. There is Peter and Satan. There is Judas and Satan.

And, beyond this, we know for no uncertain fact that God Himself WILLED to turn all these people against His Own Son:

Acts 4:
26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Your positional analysis has a repeated problem to bring only people to the table of "attempted" understandings, and invariably ignores the roles of Satan and God who are both clearly involved.

Your positions have no factors for either God or Satan, and your position just rails on Judas. It will ring hollow every time for a lack of proper accounting.

No one is ignoring anything.


I am using the language from the scripture we are discussing, concerning Judas.

Satan was involved in the betrayal, concerning Judas, as the scripture says.

2 And supper being ended, the devil having already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray Him,
John 13:2


Claiming that Satan was "in Peter", when Jesus spoke to Peter, is not found in the scriptures.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Jesus had already referred to Judas as the devil years before Judas betrayed Jesus.

John 6:70-71 (LEB) Jesus replied to them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is the devil?” Now he was speaking about Judas son of Simon Iscariot, because this one—one of the twelve—was going to betray him.

So you are teaching us based on your version of the bible, that Judas Iscariot is the devil?

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve. John 6:68-71


I don't believe Judas is the devil.

The devil, has a name and he is called Satan, not Judas Iscariot.

Judas was a man, not "literally" a devil.

This term is understood to refer to a man who acting in concert or siding with the devil.

devil - Strong's G1228 - diabolos

1. prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely
   1. a calumniator, false accuser, slanderer,
2. metaph. applied to a man who, by opposing the cause of God, may be said to act the part of the devil or to side with him
   

Please answer the question:

Can you show from the scriptures whereby Jesus ever promoted an unbeliever to Apostle, and empowered them to preach the Gospel to the lost, heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out devils?



JLB