Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while.

[JLB]

At what point in the three or so years would you say Judas became an unbeliever?

This is around the time when Judas conceived the idea to betray Jesus.

And supper being ended, the devil having already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray Him,
John 13:2


When he acted upon this treacherous idea to betray Jesus, is when his fate was sealed.



JLB

 

[chessman]

Believed Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Peter was not Jesus. Even if Peter could have known what Judas believed in his heart (he couldn't have known, but assuming he did know), none of the disciples even understood what belief it is that saves (the Gospel, Christ's death and resurrection) until after it occurred. On His way up to accomplish the Gospel, Jesus specifically says they didn't understand it (the saying).

Luke 18:31-34 (LEB) And taking aside the twelve, he said to them, “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and all the things that are written by the prophets with reference to the Son of Man will be accomplished. For he will be handed over to the Gentiles and will be mocked and mistreated and spit on, and after flogging him they will kill him, and on the third day he will rise.” And they understood none of these things, and this saying was concealed from them, and they did not comprehend the things that were said. ​

Plus back during their preaching of the kingdom of God is at hand (when Judas supposedly was saved as the OP claims), Jesus immediately corrected Peter's claim about the others' belief. One of the other 11 (Judas Iscariot) was the devil.

John 6:70-71 Jesus replied to them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is the devil?” Now he was speaking about Judas son of Simon Iscariot, because this one—one of the twelve—was going to betray him.​

​

 

[smaller]

Right.
Judas chose to betray Jesus.

There was no choice in that matter. God Himself Planned the crucifixion. It was not a random accident 'caused' by freewill agent, Judas, and no, Judas does not get the "credit" for it. God PLANNED to lay down His Own Life in precise fashions, of which Judas was part of that Divine Plan.

Scripture is clear that it was God who set these players against Jesus:

Acts 4:26-28.

The fact that God knew what Judas would do from before the beginning does not change the fact that it was Judas' decision and the Judas bears the full responsibility of his choice and action.

And Jesus, KNOWING in advance, that Judas would SIN, did nothing to stop it and in fact PROMOTED and PLANNED His Own Death to transpire.

Why anyone would give Judas a lick of credit and ignore Gods Own Divine Purposes is beyond me. It was not a random act of the freewill of Judas, but Gods Own Dictates to lay down His Own Life in very precise fashions.

And I doubt that Satan possessed Peter when Peter tried to dissuade Jesus from allowing himself to be killed and that Jesus cast Satan out of Peter by saying "Get thee behind me Satan!"

The fact that Jesus addressed Satan in Peter is not even a question. That did happen. Satan spoke from Peter's own lips. Matt. 16:23. And we want to deride only Judas, knowing for no uncertain fact that Satan also "entered" Judas? Why is anyone neglecting the Plan of God and Satan's role in the events and only hard hammering Judas? To me that is the sight of the spiritually BLINDED.

All that stuff makes the Gospel sound like a B movie starring Nicholas Cage and Vin Diesel.

Your position of Gods creation is that it is entirely a composition of random acts of a veritable host of freewill agents with NONE of God having His Hands on any of it.

Determinists "rightfully" reject such notions. God IS involved with every aspect of His Own creation, actively so. Heb. 4:12.

 

[MarkT]

That's an unbiblical conclusion based on your opinion.

Satan was the one who wanted Jesus to be killed, as demonstrated by him entering Judas to betray Jesus, for the purpose of becoming a guide to those who were to arrest Him, and crucify Him.

It was Peter who had selfish motives for not wanting Jesus to be crucified.

Read the words of Jesus.

22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”

23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”


...for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”


Peter didn't want to lose his place of prestige, in the leadership of the King of Israel.




JLB

That's your opinion JLB. There's nothing about Peter not wanting to lose his place of prestige, in the leadership of the King of Israel in the text.

The way I see it, Satan was standing in the way of God, so Jesus said 'get behind me'. Like Jesus said, 'You are a hinderance to me'
Matthew 16:23
But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me; for you are not on the side of God, but of men.”

To hinder is to obstruct, delay, create difficulties.

Satan was not on the side of God, but of men, so what he planted in Peter's mind and what came out of Peter's mouth seemed right to Peter. We know Satan demanded to have Simon/Peter from Luke 22:31.

Did Satan believe Jesus was the Son of God? Don't know. Was Satan trying to obstruct the will of God? Don't know. Was he trying to prevent the crucifixion. Don't know. We can't just go with what seems right to us.

Maybe Satan was doing what seemed right to him. Kill Jesus. After all it was in his nature. He was a murderer from the beginning and the father of all lies. John 8:44

 

[JLB]

That's your opinion JLB. There's nothing about Peter not wanting to lose his place of prestige, in the leadership of the King of Israel in the text.

Yes, losing his place among the leadership, is my opinion based on the scriptures, never the less, the plain words from Jesus, are not my opinion.

• ...He turned and said to Peter...
• ...for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

Jesus was speaking to Peter, not Satan.


22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”

23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”


...for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”


JLB

 

[JLB]

On His way up to accomplish the Gospel, Jesus specifically says they didn't understand it (the saying).

Luke 18:31-34 (LEB) And taking aside the twelve, he said to them, “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and all the things that are written by the prophets with reference to the Son of Man will be accomplished. For he will be handed over to the Gentiles and will be mocked and mistreated and spit on, and after flogging him they will kill him, and on the third day he will rise.” And they understood none of these things, and this saying was concealed from them, and they did not comprehend the things that were said.

Yes, the scripture says, they didn't understand that Jesus was to be handed over to the Gentiles to be crucified, then rise from the dead on the Third day.



The scripture also says that... Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”


JLB

 

[smaller]

• ...He turned and said to Peter...
• ...for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

Jesus was speaking to Peter, not Satan.

Obviously Jesus Directed His Words to Satan, speaking in Peter.

He didn't say "get thee behind me PETER." Matt. 16:23.

 

[ezrider]

Yes, losing his place among the leadership, is my opinion based on the scriptures, never the less, the plain words from Jesus, are not my opinion.

• ...He turned and said to Peter...
• ...for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

Jesus was speaking to Peter, not Satan.


22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”

23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”


...for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”


JLB

JLB, you should post this one over there in the Current Events and Politics Forum. Maybe our Christian brethren who are quite taken with the things of the world and the things of men might ask themselves if they are truly being mindful of the things of God.

 

[chessman]

John 13:21-26 (LEB) When he had said these things, Jesus was troubled in spirit and testified and said, “Truly, truly I say to you that one of you will betray me.” The disciples began looking at one another, uncertain about whom he was speaking. One of his disciples—the one whom Jesus loved—was reclining close beside Jesus. So Simon Peter gestured for this one to inquire who it was about whom he was speaking. He leaned back accordingly against Jesus’ chest and said to him, “Lord, who is it?” Jesus replied, “It is he to whom I dip the piece of bread and give it to him.” Then after dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas son of Simon Iscariot.
​

Yes, the scripture says, they didn't understand that Jesus was to be handed over to the Gentiles to be crucified, then rise from the dead on the Third day.

​

Yes, and that saying (The Gospel that saves believers in IT) was concealed to them at that time when your opinion is Judas was saved, per the OP's title.

Looking at John 13:21-26, is it your opinion that Jesus had loved Judas Iscariot at anytime prior to this time (the hour that Satan entered Judas)?

 

[smaller]

John 13:21-26 (LEB) When he had said these things, Jesus was troubled in spirit and testified and said, “Truly, truly I say to you that one of you will betray me.”

Anytime we see Jesus doubling up in Words, such as in the above, it is a pattern that is set forth, laid down in the O.T. as well, that it is SURE WORD of God Himself, that can not be broken for any reason.

This basis comes from a couple of examples. The "common" necessity for example, in order to establish a position, a statement of fact should come from "2 or 3 credible witnesses" if God is not speaking.

The doubling principle is also shown here, by Joseph:

Genesis 41:32
And for that the dream was doubled unto Pharaoh twice; it is because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass.

In the case of truly truly above, it came to pass, very quickly. "One of you WILL betray me" was not an option via an alternate choice of Judas. Judas could not have changed his mind.

It was SURE WORD of God Himself.

​

 

[chessman]

The scripture also says that... Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

The Scripture also records Peter saying:

John 13:8a (LEB) Peter said to him, “You will never wash my feet forever!”​

But guess what??? Peter was wrong.

 

[FreeGrace]

Reopening this thread. This is not an OSAS vs nonOSAS discussion. That topic has been beaten over and over and every time it has been discussed, the threads end up getting shut down because we can't seem to behave in a Christ-like manner. We don't need another one of those. Stick to the topic!

The OP says "Judas Iscariot: saved for a while. How is that not directly about loss of salvation?

 

[GodsGrace]

This is around the time when Judas conceived the idea to betray Jesus.

And supper being ended, the devil having already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray Him,
John 13:2


When he acted upon this treacherous idea to betray Jesus, is when his fate was sealed.



JLB

The devil HAD ALREADY put it into Judas' heart.
John 13:2

It didn't happen at that moment.

(What I find interesting about this statement is that it states that SATAN put it into Judas' heart.
smaller said in a post that GOD causes all.
I feel that God is sovereign and controls all, but does not take away our free will, except in a few select cases. Judas, Mary.
But that's a different thread...)

Wondering

 

[calvin]

The OP says "Judas Iscariot: saved for a while. How is that not directly about loss of salvation?

G'day, calvin here.
I have not been following this thread, but it seems to me that Judas was a unique character with a unique opportunity to do bad.
He took it and he did it.
What has his unique situation to do with you and me? (rhetorical question)
Though I must confess 1Cor 11:27 always brings Judas to mind, but that is me.
Be safe and well and take extra care on the roads this season.
Added verse number

 

[chessman]

Anytime we see Jesus doubling up in Words, such as in the above, it is a pattern that is set forth, laid down in the O.T. as well, that it is SURE WORD of God Himself, that can not be broken for any reason.

All God's/Jesus' words are SURE WORD of God, repeated or not.

In the case of truly truly above, it came to pass, very quickly. "One of you WILL betray me" was not an option via an alternate choice of Judas.

John 13:21 (LEB) When he had said these things, Jesus was troubled in spirit and testified and said, “Truly, truly I say to you that one of you will betray me.”​

The reason He said "truly, truly" here was not because it was necessarily to occur very quickly nor because Judas had no "alternate choice". It was because, As the Text says, Jesus was "testifying" about what Judas was going to do before it happened. Knowing what will occur and testifying to others about it does not indicate Judas had no alternate choices.

John 1:51 (LEB) And he said to him, “Truly, truly I say to all of you, you will see heaven opened and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man.”
​

An event that didn't occur until years later.

1 Chronicles 21:10-12 (LEB) “Go, you must speak to David, saying, ‘Thus says Yahweh: “Three choices I offer to you. Choose one of them for yourself that I will do to you.”’” So Gad came to David and said to him, “Thus says Yahweh: ‘Choose for yourself: whether three years of famine or three months of devastation by your enemies while the sword of your enemies overtakes you, or three days of the sword of Yahweh, with disease in the land and the angel of Yahweh destroying throughout all the territory in Israel.’ So now, see what word I should return to my sender.” ​

Clearly, God gives people alternate choices.

 

[GodsGrace]

G'day, calvin here.
I have not been following this thread, but it seems to me that Judas was a unique character with a unique opportunity to do bad.
He took it and he did it.
What has his unique situation to do with you and me? (rhetorical question)
Though I must confess 1Cor 11 always brings Judas to mind, but that is me.
Be safe and well and take extra care on the roads this season.

Hi Calvin,
Please explain why 1 Cor 11 makes you think of Judas.
I do agree with your first sentence.

Wondering

 

[atpollard]

Was Judas a SHEEP?

John 10
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one.

Not if he did not receive eternal life as John 10:28 promised Jesus would give to all of his sheep.

 

[Edward]

Did Satan believe Jesus was the Son of God? Don't know. Was Satan trying to obstruct the will of God? Don't know. Was he trying to prevent the crucifixion. Don't know. We can't just go with what seems right to us.

But we do know, Brother. Satan knew exactly who Jesus was, and so did Judas. There's no doubt about this, Judas was there from the beginning of Jesus's ministry and saw Him perform signs and miracles too, how could he not believe?

So it probably was a choice by Judas to betray Jesus. God is eternal and can see the end from the beginning so seen that a man named Judas would have a dark heart and choose to do these things. That God just capitalized on it and used it to effect His will doesn't mean that Judas had no choice in the matter. God does not tempt man.

The proof is scriptural, in James 2:19

 

[calvin]

Hi Calvin,
Please explain why 1 Cor 11 makes you think of Judas.
I do agree with your first sentence.

Wondering

G'day Wondering,
calvin here.
Sorry, I was not reasonably clear; my thinking is focused on v27 "Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord."
So who do we know that fits this? Judas certainly does.
I don't want to drag this thread off topic, so I wont discuss 1Cor 11 here, but could defend my thinking on a different thread
Blessings for you and yours, my dear sister.

 

[GodsGrace]

But we do know, Brother. Satan knew exactly who Jesus was, and so did Judas. There's no doubt about this, Judas was there from the beginning of Jesus's ministry and saw Him perform signs and miracles too, how could he not believe?

So it probably was a choice by Judas to betray Jesus. God is eternal and can see the end from the beginning so seen that a man named Judas would have a dark heart and choose to do these things. That God just capitalized on it and used it to effect His will doesn't mean that Judas had no choice in the matter. God does not tempt man.

The proof is scriptural, in James 2:19

Interesting understanding of God's sovereignty reconciled to man's free will.