Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while.

[GodsGrace]

Sure. Me too. And thank you for clarifying your point for me. I was mistsken and thought you were referring to Saul's first question.

I think Paul's testimony of his own conversion to Christianity before King Agrippa really supports my point (conversion within the city when given sight back, witnessed to by Ananias and the Holy Spirit and being washed of his sins there) versus the view of conversion/salvation on the road to the city while blinded, fearful and astonished and having no other witness besides himself to the voice and light. In several ways and here's why;

Acts 26:1, 9-18 (NKJV) Then Agrippa said to Paul, “You are permitted to speak for yourself.” So Paul stretched out his hand and answered for himself: “Indeed, I myself thought I must do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth. This I also did in Jerusalem, and many of the saints I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I cast my vote against them. And I punished them often in every synagogue and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly enraged against them, I persecuted them even to foreign cities. “While thus occupied, as I journeyed to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,​

Saul was a persecutor of Christians "even to" the city of Damascus per his own testimony. He did not say while most of the way to Damascus I was thus occupied. Or thus occupied till I reached a place where the Lord spoke to me on the road outside of Damascus. He knew exactly where he was converted to Christianity and saved (even the street address. And testified that he was occupied as a persecutor of Christianity even to that city (Damascus). If his conversion occured prior to reaching Damascus then it's contrary to Paul's testimony here. His conversion and regaining sight was a miracle that he remembered distinctly occuring in the city, not prior to it. And here's how it happened O king:

at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who journeyed with me. And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. ​

Obviously still a persecutor per Jesus' own statement. Yes, after hearing Jesus' voice, Saul was still a persecutor.

But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you."​

Yes, Jesus was in the process of making Saul (a chosen unbeliever and persecutor) into a minister. He still needed to be made into a minister (in the future) AND a witness to things he had just seen (Jesus, the light) and heard (Jesus, the voice). Yes, even after hearing and seeing Jesus he needed somethings; A witness to the event that just happened (Ananias) AND a witness to new revelation (the Holy Spirit). Sorry, but he still needed the Holy Spirit to be converted.

I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, ​

Yes, Jesus chose an unconverted, unbeliever, indeed persecutor of Christians to be a minister of His Gospel.

to open their eyes,​

Saul's eyes were NOT opened until the first witness (Ananias) arrived in the city. Saul's heart was not opened until the other witness (the Holy Spirit) arrived in the city.

in order to turn them from darkness to light,​

As I've pointed out previously, it takes the witness of the Holy Spirit in order to open the dark hearts of unbelievers. Yes, even Saul's.

and from the power of Satan to God, ​

Yes the power of God (the Holy Spirit) is necessary. Yet did not arrive on the road but rather, in the city.

that they may receive forgiveness of sins ​

Sauls sins were NOT cleansed outside the city but inside.

and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
​

And yes, Saul received his inheritance inside the city of Damascus (not at his death).

WHO did Paul persecute AFTER he saw the light and heard the voice of Jesus in Acts 22:8-10??
NO ONE.
He's only referring to the mission he was on when addressing Agrippa.
The persecution stopped immediately at Acts 22:8

Wondering

 

[smaller]

How do you reason this Smaller??

Children of the devil are devils. Fairly simple observation. Mankind are not devils. Again, a fairly simple observation.

The reasons the simplicity is difficult to see is multifold, primarily because we are all subject to a certain form of blindness to perceive "unseen" entities. And are "naturally" inclined to see only man.

Even though it's quite fairly and openly obvious throughout the N.T. that scripture deals with devils IN man, people just don't get it. The reason they don't is because we ALL deal with that "adverse spiritual working" ourselves, internally, that resists the fact.

No believer really cares to hear that their own sin is of the devil for example. They'll resist this sight every time. If we observe "two parties" there we might even see why the fact is resisted and WHO resists it. 1 John 3:8.

If the "children of the wicked one" are devils,
then the "children of God" are Gods.

I would point out that all of orthodoxy considers mankind as Gods children, blinded as they may be to Christ. And a good bulk of Protestantism has the same sight. Nobody trying to witness to a spiritually blinded person tells them they are devils unless they are in some kind of fringe cult.

Most Christians advise the unsaved that God in Christ does actually LOVE them and use that fact as a basis of sharing the Gospel. John 3:16.

Mathew 13:38 is explaining the parable of the tares amoung the wheat.
The one who sows good seed is Jesus.
The field is the world.
The good seed are the Sons of the Kingdom (of God). They are men following God.
The tares are the sons of the evil one. They are men following satan.

And that would be a sight that makes people devils. Children of the Wicked one. I can only point to the fact that children of the wicked one are devils, not mankind.

I've used this example for Judas many times in this thread already. All of Israel were taught, by scriptures, that they really ARE Gods children, believer or unbeliever. Deut. 14:1, Psalm 82:6, affirmed by Jesus in Matt. 23:9, and laid on Judas and the other Apostles specifically in Matt. 10:16 and Matt. 10:20.

Jesus didn't come to covert "devils" into children of God. That position is found nowhere in the scriptures. Unfortunately when believers don't have clear lines drawn between people and devils the lines get blurred. Most simply have an accounting of MAN only. They leave out the devil and Gods Workings. Since devils are unseen and are upon/within man, it's doubly difficult. People tend to judge a man as just a man. That's NOT how scripture shows us "man." Scripture shows man and devil in the same set of shoes. Mark 4:15, even with Paul himself in 2 Cor. 12:7, or by John in 1 John 3:8.

I'd expect any Christian should really know these quite fundamental understandings. When we are tempted by the tempter, the worst sinner who ever existed is working WITHIN our minds, doing so. So, where does that place 'the tempter?' Seems rather obvious to me. But believers in general just don't see it.

We're not sharing the Gospel with and trying to convert DEVIL humans. We share to instill in INTERNAL DIVISION between man and his spiritual captor. Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2 all show this very basic TWO different party construct of MAN as do many many other scriptures. THE GREAT DIVIDER IS CHRIST IN US. And we, even by Spiritual Instinct, KNOW we have to have this INTERNAL DIVISION working in ourselves, at all times. Christ AIDS us, directly, in this process, dividing us, so we are not pawns of and controlled by our own 'evil present' with us.

It clearly states in Mathew 13:39
The enemy who sowed the tares is the devil. He influenced the men who follow him, and they listened.

And you see just "man" in that picture. That's not an accurate picture.

Both the good seed and the tares will be judged at the end of the age, at the harvest.

Everyone gives an account at the end of their lives for both good and evil. This too is beyond any uncertainty. We should understand our own internal wickedness is a direct association to the spirit of disobedience that is NOT US as believers. But as stated, believers really don't care to hear that "our own sins" are just as John states, "of the devil." When believers know this connection fact they are not as likely to be his pawns in the flesh and will be even MORE repulsed by sin, knowing from whom it stems.

I've generally found that believers who can't make this connection with their own sin won't read or understand scriptures in general, very well, on that side of the ledger. It's pretty easy to notch off all of the good stuff in the scriptures, and direct all the stuff we don't like to some other people. That's NOT how we are supposed to engage the Word. Every Word of God is for "us." Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4. And some of that Word IS directed to the spirit of disobedience that 'all' are bound with in the flesh. Romans 11:32.

I've made this note of fact many times. Believers can make claims that the sin indwelling their own flesh, and the evil present with them is "obedient" to the Gospel, but that is technically an impossibility. The Spirit is factually OPPOSED to that working in everyone. Romans 7:17-21, Gal. 5:17. Just as much against us as for us. Just as much as the Spirit was against the sins of Judas, the Spirit is equally against our own sins.

It's easy to pot shot Judas. It's much more difficult to see our own sins as being demonic in nature. We just like to perch our "whole" self on one side of the scriptures and completely ignore the fact that all of us have, as Paul did, evil present with(IN) us. Romans 7:21. No one really cares to put and keep that working under adverse judgments of God in Christ. We prefer ignorance. And we prefer scriptural salve to ourselves that won't spread that far and was never intended to.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sure. Me too. And thank you for clarifying your point for me. I was mistsken and thought you were referring to Saul's first question.

I think Paul's testimony of his own conversion to Christianity before King Agrippa really supports my point (conversion within the city when given sight back, witnessed to by Ananias and the Holy Spirit and being washed of his sins there) versus the view of conversion/salvation on the road to the city while blinded, fearful and astonished and having no other witness besides himself to the voice and light. In several ways and here's why;

Acts 26:1, 9-18 (NKJV) Then Agrippa said to Paul, “You are permitted to speak for yourself.” So Paul stretched out his hand and answered for himself: “Indeed, I myself thought I must do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth. This I also did in Jerusalem, and many of the saints I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I cast my vote against them. And I punished them often in every synagogue and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly enraged against them, I persecuted them even to foreign cities. “While thus occupied, as I journeyed to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,​

Saul was a persecutor of Christians "even to" the city of Damascus per his own testimony. He did not say while most of the way to Damascus I was thus occupied. Or thus occupied till I reached a place where the Lord spoke to me on the road outside of Damascus. He knew exactly where he was converted to Christianity and saved (even the street address. And testified that he was occupied as a persecutor of Christianity even to that city (Damascus). If his conversion occured prior to reaching Damascus then it's contrary to Paul's testimony here. His conversion and regaining sight was a miracle that he remembered distinctly occuring in the city, not prior to it. And here's how it happened O king:

at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who journeyed with me. And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. ​

Obviously still a persecutor per Jesus' own statement. Yes, after hearing Jesus' voice, Saul was still a persecutor.

But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you."​

Yes, Jesus was in the process of making Saul (a chosen unbeliever and persecutor) into a minister. He still needed to be made into a minister (in the future) AND a witness to things he had just seen (Jesus, the light) and heard (Jesus, the voice). Yes, even after hearing and seeing Jesus he needed somethings; A witness to the event that just happened (Ananias) AND a witness to new revelation (the Holy Spirit). Sorry, but he still needed the Holy Spirit to be converted.

I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, ​

Yes, Jesus chose an unconverted, unbeliever, indeed persecutor of Christians to be a minister of His Gospel.

to open their eyes,​

Saul's eyes were NOT opened until the first witness (Ananias) arrived in the city. Saul's heart was not opened until the other witness (the Holy Spirit) arrived in the city.

in order to turn them from darkness to light,​

As I've pointed out previously, it takes the witness of the Holy Spirit in order to open the dark hearts of unbelievers. Yes, even Saul's.

and from the power of Satan to God, ​

Yes the power of God (the Holy Spirit) is necessary. Yet did not arrive on the road but rather, in the city.

that they may receive forgiveness of sins ​

Sauls sins were NOT cleansed outside the city but inside.

and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
​

And yes, Saul received his inheritance inside the city of Damascus (not at his death).

Paul's sins were cleansed outside the city BEFORE he ever got to Damascus.
Acts 22:10
Paul asks Jesus what shall he do.
Do people who are NOT saved ask Jesus what they are to do? Why would they?
You have to believe and have trust in Jesus in order to ask Him what He would have you do.
If you ask Him and trust Him, it means you're saved.

Some persons make being saved very difficult
and staying saved very easy.

We don't need a witness besides God
We don't need to be baptized
We don't need ANYTHING, but to believe and trust In the Lord and ask Him what He would have us do in life,
as Paul did in Acts 22:10 -- "What shall I do, Lord?" NASB

Wondering

 

[chessman]

At this point Paul knows that it is Jesus speaking to him - the Jesus he had been persecuting.

He was blind. How do you know that he was not still speaking to the same Lord he just spoke to? You don't know from your assumption that he switched speaking to the Lord (The Father) to the Lord (Jesus). If we didn't have Paul's further testimony about the event, it would still make more sense that he was still asking the Father what to do given his situation. But we don't have to speculate because Paul's account is clear that he made it into the city as a persecutor being led by other persecutors.

1. You say there were no other witnesses. Jesus is His own witness. He does not require witnesses.
Did you have a witness besides God when you became saved?

I had the Holy Spirit as a witness. So did Paul inside the city but not outside.

Do you believe what the SoF for this site says?

"We believe that genuine believers are born again by the Holy Spirit of God, and are indwelt, baptized into the body of Christ ..."​

These things happened to Saul while inside the city, not outside, per his own testimony (three times).

We are saved BEFORE we can DO anything for God.

All genuine believers are saved by the the Holy Spirit of God, per Paul and this site's SoF. For Saul, it occurred inside the city, not outside.

 

[Jim Parker]

Paul never preached the Gospel, after he was baptized and filled with the holy Spirit.

Huh???

Rom 1:1 (RSV) Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God...
Rom 1:15-16 (RSV) so I am eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome. For I am not ashamed of the gospel: it is the power of God for salvation to every one who has faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Rom 15:15-16a (RSV) But on some points I have written to you very boldly by way of reminder, because of the grace given me by God to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God,
Rom 15:18020a (RSV) For I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has wrought through me to win obedience from the Gentiles, by word and deed, by the power of signs and wonders, by the power of the Holy Spirit, so that from Jerusalem and as far round as Illyr'icum I have fully preached the gospel of Christ, thus making it my ambition to preach the gospel,
1Co 1:17 (RSV) For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel,...
1Co 9:16 (RSV) For if I preach the gospel, that gives me no ground for boasting. For necessity is laid upon me. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel!

And many more.

Did you mean "Paul never preached the Gospel, UNTIL after he was baptized and filled with the holy Spirit."

iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)






DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[GodsGrace]

He was blind. How do you know that he was not still speaking to the same Lord he just spoke to? You don't know from your assumption that he switched speaking to the Lord (The Father) to the Lord (Jesus). If we didn't have Paul's further testimony about the event, it would still make more sense that he was still asking the Father what to do given his situation. But we don't have to speculate because Paul's account is clear that he made it into the city as a persecutor being led by other persecutors.

How do you, or anyone for that matter, know who Paul was speaking to when he said Lord twice in Acts 22:8-10?
You believe I'm assuming. It's an intelligent assumption. Jesus clearly told Paul who he was, and Paul called Him Lord.
You don't have to put Lord and then Father is Jesus in parenthesis. LORD is the Father, and Lord is Jesus - but the translators got it messed up and sometimes so do we. But that's how it should be.

So you say Paul was asking the Father what he should do. OK. Do you suppose the Father told him to keep on persecuting Chrisitians?
And yet you claim that he didn't stop till he got inside the wall.
Maybe I'm a drug dealer. I'm on my way to sell some drugs and I see a great light and hear a voice from heaven and speak to it.
I was ON MY WAY to do some selling - does this mean I didn't get saved? Does this mean I'm still going to sell?
Yes. I got saved.
No. No more selling - I heard straight from God.

I had the Holy Spirit as a witness. So did Paul inside the city but not outside.

Do you believe what the SoF for this site says?

"We believe that genuine believers are born again by the Holy Spirit of God, and are indwelt, baptized into the body of Christ ..."​

These things happened to Saul while inside the city, not outside, per his own testimony (three times).


All genuine believers are saved by the the Holy Spirit of God, per Paul and this site's SoF. For Saul, it occurred inside the city, not outside.

I know what the TOS are and every moderator here knows I believe them.
That's totally besides the point of our discussion.
You had the Holy Spirit as a witness.
Do you believe in the Trinity?
Is God 3 or is God 1?
If He's 1, then all persons are present at the same time always. Otherwise, you've just divided and separated them.
Does this agree with the TOS? Or with Christianity for that matter.
Or are you trying to say that the Holy Spirit was not around when Paul got saved? Where was He?
He only shows up for some people?

All believers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
Do you know the difference between being baptized into the body of Christ and being baptized with water or immersion?
Do you believe one must be baptized with water to be saved?

You can repeat that Paul was saved inside Damascus after receiving his sight. Maybe a preacher preached this once to show how we're "blind" before we meet our Lord and then we "see."
This makes a nice sermon but it doesn't tell us that Paul was saved inside the city.

When did he meet Jesus?
When did Paul call Him Lord?

Outside the city, on his way there.

Wondering

 

[chessman]

WHO did Paul persecute AFTER he saw the light and heard the voice of Jesus in Acts 22:8-10??

Jesus and His followers.
According to Paul, Saul carried the authority and commission letter all the way to the city of Damascus.

Acts 26:11-12 (NKJV) And I punished them often in every synagogue and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly enraged against them, I persecuted them even to foreign cities. “While thus occupied, as I journeyed to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,
​

Some persons make being saved very difficult

Saul asked the Lord what he should do and the Lord told him two things he should do and promised to tell him more things once in the city.

Acts 22:9-10 (NKJV) “And those who were with me indeed saw the light and were afraid, but they did not hear the voice of Him who spoke to me. So I said, ‘What shall I do, Lord?’ And the Lord said to me, ‘Arise and go into Damascus, and there you will be told all things which are appointed for you to do.’​

The reason Saul asked the voice of Him who spoke what he should do was because the other persecutors did not hear the voice.

Paul's sins were cleansed outside the city BEFORE he ever got to Damascus.
Acts 22:10

Acts 22:10 does not say Saul's sins were cleansed outside the city. And it is a flat out "wrong" claim, to use your word.

Acts 22:16 (NKJV) And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’​

The conversation in verse 16 between Ananias and Saul, where Ananias said and I quote: "wash away your sins" occured inside the city! Not outside as you claimed above. And guess who told Ananias what to tell Saul inside the city??? The Lord! Frankly, the Lord knew exactly were Saul's sins were appointed to be washed away and where he was to be baptized with the Holy Spirit (saved). And it was not outside the city.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus and His followers.
According to Paul, Saul carried the authority and commission letter all the way to the city of Damascus.

Acts 26:11-12 (NKJV) And I punished them often in every synagogue and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly enraged against them, I persecuted them even to foreign cities. “While thus occupied, as I journeyed to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,​

No Chessman. Paul persecuted no others on his way to Damascus AFTER he saw the light. I already went into this and will not repeat.
Acts 22:11-13
Acts 22:13
Paul gets to Damascus. Ananias comes to greet him. HOW does Ananias greet Paul?
He calls him "brother Saul" because Paul was a believer at that point. Ananias had not yet told him what God wanted him to do.

Acts 22:16
Ananias tells Paul to arise and be baptized to have his sins washed away.
John the Baptist baptized to have sins washed away. Ananias was a Jewish person and follower of Christ. He could be remembering the baptism of John in form. This is not a problem. Also, again I must ask, are we saved at believing, or at baptism?
Are we made righteous at our justification or must we await baptism?
These questions must be answered by you and must be applied to Paul also.
What goes for us, is valid also for paul.
​

Saul asked the Lord what he should do and the Lord told him two things he should do and promised to tell him more things once in the city.

Acts 22:9-10 (NKJV) “And those who were with me indeed saw the light and were afraid, but they did not hear the voice of Him who spoke to me. So I said, ‘What shall I do, Lord?’ And the Lord said to me, ‘Arise and go into Damascus, and there you will be told all things which are appointed for you to do.’​

The reason Saul asked the voice of Him who spoke what he should do was because the other persecutors did not hear the voice.

Since you underlined "the voice of Him who spoke ot me," as though it is important, I'd have to ask you if his fellow companions
1. saw the light but did not hear the voice Acts 22:9-10
or
2. did hear the voice Acts 9:7

I bring this up to say that we are arguing over unimportant matters.
Could you tell me why it's important where Paul got saved?

Acts 22:10 does not say Saul's sins were cleansed outside the city. And it is a flat out "wrong" claim, to use your word.

Acts 22:16 (NKJV) And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’​

The conversation in verse 16 between Ananias and Saul, where Ananias said and I quote: "wash away your sins" occured inside the city! Not outside as you claimed above. And guess who told Ananias what to tell Saul inside the city??? The Lord! Frankly, the Lord knew exactly were Saul's sins were appointed to be washed away and where he was to be baptized with the Holy Spirit (saved). And it was not outside the city.

As we understand Christianity and salvation today, our sins are washed by the blood of Christ at SALVATION when we call on the name of the Lord and turn to Him. NOT at baptism, as would have to be the case IF you were correct.

Wondering

 

[atpollard]

Redacted

 

[chessman]

How do you, or anyone for that matter, know who Paul was speaking to when he said Lord twice in Acts 22:8-10?

I know who Saul was speaking to because Paul gives witness to the account three times. He was speaking to the Lord Jesus.
The issue is not who's voice it was (that's obvious), but rather, what did Saul say. Did he say; 'Lord Jesus, you are the risen Christ, wash me of my sins', no.

This Text doesn't say he confessed Jesus Christ is Lord, risen from the dead while outside Damascus. Why? Because he didn't say it then. If he had believed it, Paul's testimony would be that he believed it then. And what of the others with him. Did they hear Saul confess Jesus is Lord, then help him into the city??? No, Paul's testimony is that his first confession was to those in Damascus, not outside.
His own testimony is that he went into Damascus carrying a letter authorizing persecution of Christians being led by other persecutors.

The point is, Saul was baptized with the Holy Spirit inside the city, not out. And his sins were washed away inside the city, contrary to your previous claim. He did NOT become a genuine believer until he was baptized with the Holy Spirit. And guess what, Judas didn't either. Why? Because Judas was never baptized with the Holy Spirit. He was dead when the other disciples received the Holy Spirit.

You believe I'm assuming. It's an intelligent assumption.

It's theoretically possible Paul believed the voice was Jesus' voice on the road, sure. He could have also thought the voice was Jesus' angel as those who were praying for Peter's release from prison thought it was Peter's angle knocking at the door (see Acts 12:15). Or that he was simply hearing voices in his head that others couldn't hear.

Acts 12:15 (LEB) But they said to her, “You are out of your mind!” But she kept insisting it was so. And they kept saying, “It is his angel!”​

But, Scripturally speaking, neither Saul, nor Judas (nor anyone else) could have genuinely believed that Jesus Christ is Lord, raised from the dead without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It's really just that simple.

No person can be a genuine Christian believer without being baptized/indwelt with the Holy Spirit. There is a reason this Christian site has the Statement of Faith (not Terms of Service) that it does. It's true.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (NKJV) But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Acts 11:16-17 (LEB) And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ Therefore if God gave them the same gift as also to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to be able to hinder God?”
​

Saul didn't know how to discern the voice being Jesus without the Holy Spirit's indwelling. And he didn't get the Holy Spirit's indwelling outside the city, per Paul's own testimony.

Could you tell me why it's important where Paul got saved?

​

Yes, it's important because genuine believers are born again by the Holy Spirit of God. Do you believe that genuine believers are born again by the Holy Spirit of God, yes or no? You didn't answer this question before.

​

No Chessman. Paul persecuted no others on his way to Damascus AFTER he saw the light.

Why do you make claims about the Text that are so demonstrably false (all the while telling me my statements about the events are "wrong")??? Read it, study it, pray about it. Even state what you assume. But stop making these demonstrably false claims about it.

You claimed his sins were washed away outside the city, yet the Text clearly says his sins were washed away at his baptism of the Holy Spirit inside the city.

Now you're saying Saul was no longer a persecutor AFTER he saw the light. No Wondering, Jesus Himself says Saul was still a persecutor AFTER Saul saw the light (and heard the voice, BTW).

Acts 22:5-8 (NKJV) as also the high priest bears me witness, and all the council of the elders, from whom I also received letters to the brethren, and went to Damascus to bring in chains even those who were there to Jerusalem to be punished. “Now it happened, as I journeyed and came near Damascus at about noon, suddenly a great light from heaven shone around me. And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?’ So I answered, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said to me, ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting.’​

Jesus doesn't say 'whom you were persecuting'. He says "you are persecuting" (presently). YES after Saul saw the light and heard the voice. And again (last time) Paul says that Saul went to Damascus with the letter in hand being led by the other persecutors he traveled with.

Do you think he and his companions threw the High Priests' letter to the "brethren" away outside the city or something??? He and his companions carried it into the city per Paul's on testimony.

Saul and Ananias were Jewish brothers. So were the High Priests and Jews living in Damascus. Ananias didn't call Saul a brother in Christ. He meant fellow Jew.

As we understand Christianity and salvation today, our sins are washed by the blood of Christ at SALVATION when we call on the name of the Lord and turn to Him.

Some understand that, some don't. I know people that think you aren't saved until you die and are judged a believer by Jesus. Odd really.

But okay, Saul's sins were washed away inside the city (not outside) as I said. Poof, salvation inside the city not outside per your own understanding above (and mine). And once again (last time) this occured at his baptism of the Holy Spirit inside the city. I've already posted the verses from Paul's own testimony that proves Saul's sins were washed away inside the city (numerous times), contray to your earlier claim. How come Paul didn't say his sins were washed away while outside the city, on your view???

And genuine believers are born again by the Holy Spirit of God, right? You never answered this question. Nor has JLB.

Acts 22:9 (NASB) And those who were with me saw the light, to be sure, but did not understand the voice of the One who was speaking to me. ​

Acts 9:7 (LEB) Now the men who were traveling together with him stood speechless, because they heard the voice but saw no one.​

There is no contradiction in Paul's testimony. The others heard a "sound" (phóné) but not the sound of someone speaking (the voice of the Lord).

John 12:27-30 (LEB) “Now my soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, deliver me from this hour’? But for this reason I have come to this hour! Father, glorify your name!” Then a voice came from heaven, “I have both glorified it, and I will glorify it again.” Now the crowd that stood there and heard it said it had thundered. Others were saying, “An angel has spoken to him!” Jesus answered and said, “This voice has not happened for my sake, but for your sake.​

Jesus' sheep hear (and listen to) His voice. Others just hear noises.

But that's not why I underlined it. I underlined it because Saul is pointing out the very reason he responded to the voice with his question. It was because the others could not verify/testify to what the voice said. They just heard sounds.

We have the advantage of hindsight. We know all about the rest of Paul's life and how much the Lord Jesus meant to him, his dedication, etc. But think about how Saul felt that day (again without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit yet) in his situation outside the city.

 

[IncredibleTransformation]

I see a lot of posts about free will in this thread. Do we have a free will? We have a will but is it really free? We are always influenced by something. Judas was chosen by God to betray Jesus. Our hearts are putty in His hands. He can do with them as He pleases.

 

[smaller]

I know who Saul was speaking to because Paul gives witness to the account three times. He was speaking to the Lord Jesus.
The issue is not who's voice it was (that's obvious), but rather, what did Saul say. Did he say; 'Lord Jesus, you are the risen Christ, wash me of my sins', no.

Paul received his direct instructions from Jesus to minister, right there on the spot. I'd suggest any person struck blind by the Light Of Christ probably had an instant conversion, notwithstanding later actions.

Acts 26:
16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Whether Saul "validated" or not wouldn't have changed a thing. The convert was MADE by the Hand of God in Christ, Himself, right there at that first encounter. Saying Saul had to 'make it real' by some other actions later on won't compute. It was no longer just a matter of Saul, but of Jesus Overwhelming Saul and changing him, putting the Spirit of Christ in him.

Those are all current tense deployments of the power of God in Christ above.

To say or claim that rituals and practices equate, validate or substantiate to this first action is not true. IF anything Saul's subsequent actions were only to JOIN Saul to the other church members so the members wouldn't be distrustful of him. And if we observe the thoughts of Ananias, that's exactly what Ananias expressed, shock. Acts 9:13.

Jesus Ran His Own Shock and Awe Campaign.

 

[smaller]

I see a lot of posts about free will in this thread. Do we have a free will? We have a will but is it really free? We are always influenced by something. Judas was chosen by God to betray Jesus. Our hearts are putty in His hands. He can do with them as He pleases.

Brilliant deduction. Jesus, right here, right now, could perform His Ultimate Intentions of Phil. 3:21 and no one would be able to say a word about it.

 

[JLB]

Did he say; 'Lord Jesus, you are the risen Christ, wash me of my sins', no.

Please post the scripture that teaches we must say: 'Lord Jesus, you are the risen Christ, wash me of my sins', in order to show we believe and be saved by faith.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Did you mean "Paul never preached the Gospel, UNTIL after he was baptized and filled with the holy Spirit."

Yes.

Sorry for that.



JLB

 

[chessman]

I'd suggest any person struck blind by the Light Of Christ probably had an instant conversion, notwithstanding later actions.

So your suggestion is Saul probably had an instant conversion when blinded by the light of Christ. Yet Jesus says; "why persecutest thou me" AFTER Saul saw the light and fell to the ground. Got it. Thanks for your suggestion but the Text doesn't support your suggestion.

Acts 22:6-7 (KJV) And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me. And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?​

If it was instant conversion, why did Jesus ask Saul, Saul this question (why petsecutest thou) AFTER seeing the light??? (rhetorical question)

Do you believe genuine believers are born again by the Holy Spirit of God and are indwelt, baptized into the body of Christ? (Serious question)

 

[chessman]

Please post the scripture that teaches we must say: 'Lord Jesus, you are the risen Christ, wash me of my sins', in order to show we believe and be saved by faith.

Right after you post the Scripture that teaches we must ask: "Lord, what do You want me to do?" in order to show we believe and by saved by faith.

6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?” Acts 9:6

Do you believe genuine believers are born again by the Holy Spirit of God and are indwelt, baptized into the body of Christ?

 

[smaller]

So your suggestion is Saul probably had an instant conversion when blinded by the light of Christ. Yet Jesus says; "why persecutest thou me" AFTER Saul saw the light and fell to the ground. Got it.

Saul ceased from that activity immediately. I certainly wouldn't stake your claim on that statement.

Look, anyone struck blind by the Light of Jesus has an on the spot change of mind/heart, beyond any doubt. Nothing coming afterwards can quite hold to that first Light experience. And yes, it was entirely experienced by Saul, as noted by Paul himself in Acts 26:13-18. THAT IS PAUL'S PERSONAL WITNESS AND TESTIMONY of the REALITY OF JESUS CHRIST.

Thanks for your suggestion but the Text doesn't support your suggestion.

The experience Saul had is all that matters. Trying to move that very real experience off of that fact to some later exercises to diminish the reality of the first encounter is somewhat lame sight. Saul had an instant and quite FORCED upon him, conversion. He wasn't seeking. He wasn't asking. He wasn't employing his so called freewill in cooperation. Saul was rather quite immersed in active resistance.

Acts 22:6-7 (KJV) And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me. And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?​

If it was instant conversion, why did Jesus ask Saul, Saul this question (why petsecutest thou) AFTER seeing the light??? (rhetorical question)

And what claim is it you are trying to make? Jesus is obviously reasoning with the man and changing his course.

Do you believe genuine believers are born again by the Holy Spirit of God and are indwelt, baptized into the body of Christ? (Serious question)

From experience Jesus comes to believers in many different ways. I know many instant converts from my charismatic days and was "made so" myself. Not as in quite that dramatic fashion as Saul, but it was instant conversion for me. Can't say that's everyone's experience, but it's not unusual to hear accounts of instant conversion. You won't hear too many of such accounts in "dead ritual" churches however. And believers who've had instant conversions are not too fond of "dead ritual" assemblies, again, from observations.

I have seriously witnessed and participated by witnessing myself and seeing many "instant conversions." Many.

What follows from there will vary to the person.

But to say Saul didn't have a dramatic life changing experience ON THE SPOT is just ridiculous.

 

[JLB]

Right after you post the Scripture that teaches we must ask: "Lord, what do You want me to do?" in order to show we believe and by saved by faith.

6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?”

Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

7 And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one. 8 Then Saul arose from the ground, and when his eyes were opened he saw no one. But they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. 9 And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.

Ananias Baptizes Saul
10 Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and to him the Lord said in a vision, “Ananias.”

And he said, “Here I am, Lord.”

11 So the Lord said to him, “Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus, for behold, he is praying. 12 And in a vision he has seen a man named Ananias coming in and putting his hand on him, so that he might receive his sight.”

13 Then Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem. 14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on Your name.”

15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. 16 For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.”

17 And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”
Acts 9:6-17

• Why would a person Baptize an unbeliever?

The result of Saul's conversion on the road to Damascus, prompted Ananias, who was instructed by the Lord, to call Him "brother".


Now please show us the scripture whereby we are required to say... Lord Jesus, you are the risen Christ, wash me of my sins'




JLB

 

[chessman]

Saul had an instant and quite FORCED upon him, conversion. He wasn't seeking. He wasn't asking.

Trying to claim Saul's question; "What shall I do, Lord?" wasn't asking/seeking is .., what's the word I'm looking for???? Oh yea, "lame sight".

Acts 22:10 (NKJV) So I said, ‘What shall I do, Lord?’​