Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while.

[MarkT]

Apparently in your positional sight then Jesus chose a devil to be disciple and Apostle?

I wouldn't trust that kind of chooser myself.

Exactly. To fulfill the scripture. This is what I wrote post 316 - Re. Judas the betrayer

It's out of necessity that the betrayer, Judas, would need to be someone close to the one he betrayed, Jesus. So out of necessity, to fulfill the scripture, Jesus chose Judas and made him an apostle; he loved him, he treated him like an apostle, he put him in charge of the money box. Still Judas was a devil and a thief according to John 12:4-64 But Judas Iscariot, one of his disciples (he who was to betray him), said, 5 “Why was this ointment not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor?” 6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor but because he was a thief, and as he had the money box he used to take what was put into it.

And likewise we know the 12, the disciples/Apostles were sheep, and that their Father spoke through them. Matt. 10:16, Matt. 10:20. So sheep are now devils as well? And the Father speaks through devils? Isn't this where your position has to land?

They were sent out as sheep in the midst of wolves to say, "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." Why would you think my position is they were all devils when only Judas was a devil?

Jesus said, "Woe to that man" referring to Judas. He didn't say woe to that spirit or woe to that devil.
Matthew 26:24
The Son of man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.”

That's the odd thing about your positional claim. You see Peter and Satan, not the same, but you don't use the same measure with Judas.

Your position should logically see Peter the same way it sees Judas, if it were anything resembling consistency.

I would say because they were not all devils. A clean vessel is a vessel made for glory.
Romans 9:23
in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory,

Judas was unclean.

IF Judas was indeed 'a devil' and Satan entered Judas, deceiving him, then Jesus should have see TWO devils, Judas and Satan. Again, your positional claim is extremely inconsistent and has other problems.

Anytime believers think people are devils they have their own wires crossed. People are people. Devils are an entirely different entity class in the unseen spiritual realm.

Believe Jesus. Jesus called men devils and serpents and vipers.
Matthew 23:33
You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?

Their desire to do their father's will sets them apart from the men we are trying to save. They are are of their father, and he was a liar from the beginning.

 

[chessman]

Based on this scripture, I would say yes.

As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you;...
John 15:9

How about when Jesus washed the disciples feet; Did Jesus love Judas as the Father loves Jesus then?

John 13:2, 10-11 (NKJV) And supper being ended, the devil having already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray Him, ...
Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.” For He knew who would betray Him; therefore He said, “You are not all clean.”

​

 

[smaller]

Exactly. To fulfill the scripture. This is what I wrote post 316 - Re. Judas the betrayer

By rights then you'd also appear to have the position that "devils" are or can be "converted" into children of God? Is this your claim?

It's out of necessity that the betrayer, Judas, would need to be someone close to the one he betrayed, Jesus. So out of necessity, to fulfill the scripture, Jesus chose Judas and made him an apostle; he loved him, he treated him like an apostle,

So, again, by rights, your positional claim is that Jesus also loves devils?

They were sent out as sheep in the midst of wolves to say, "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." Why would you think my position is they were all devils when only Judas was a devil?

Judas was sent out with the 12 as a sheep. I see no exception that Judas, specifically, was not. So your position would be also then that sheep are devils. Matt. 10:16.

I also see no exception of Judas specified in Matt. 10:20 either. So the Father now also speaks through devils, since the Father spoke through Judas? And since Jesus said they have One Father who is in heaven, Matt. 23:9 the Father is also now the Father of DEVILS???

You do realize that your conclusions lead to some pretty bizarre dead ends don't you?

Jesus said, "Woe to that man" referring to Judas. He didn't say woe to that spirit or woe to that devil.
Matthew 26:24
The Son of man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.”

Went through this exercise prior. The term "man" is applied to multiple agents, not just "man." Lucifer for example was termed "a man." And most take it that Lucifer was Satan. Isa. 14:12-16. Just as the term "angel" can also be applied to Holy angels, wicked angels or even mankind angel/messengers.

I would say because they were not all devils.

How many others were devils?

A clean vessel is a vessel made for glory.
Romans 9:23
in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory,

Judas was unclean.

All mankind are defiled by "evil thoughts." Apostles are not exceptions.

Matt. 15:19-20, Mark 7:21-23, Matt. 5:28, Romans 7:7-13, Romans 7:17-21.

Believe Jesus. Jesus called men devils and serpents and vipers.
Matthew 23:33
You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?

That's only the way YOU SEE it because you see only MAN in the equations.

Their desire to do their father's will sets them apart from the men we are trying to save. They are are of their father, and he was a liar from the beginning.

Sin is of the devil. 1 John 3:8. Do the math.

I'm just seeing how bizarre the conversation gets at this point, particularly with the first few points above about devil conversions to children of God and Jesus loving devils and Jesus calling sheep devils and the Father speaking through devils and being the Father of devils. All of which is where your positions would have to conclude.

Not that we can find any evidence of any of it in the scriptures unless we don't know the basic difference between a human being and a devil.

 

[MarkT]

By rights then you'd also appear to have the position that "devils" are or can be "converted" into children of God? Is this your claim?

No. At the close of the age, the weeds/devils will be gathered and burned.

So, again, by rights, your positional claim is that Jesus also loves devils?

Not at all. My position is Jesus treated Judas like a friend. Do you know what betray means? Jesus was betrayed. How do you betray someone who is not close to you?

Judas was sent out with the 12 as a sheep. I see no exception that Judas, specifically, was not. So your position would be also then that sheep are devils. Matt. 10:16.

I also see no exception of Judas specified in Matt. 10:20 either. So the Father now also speaks through devils, since the Father spoke through Judas? And since Jesus said they have One Father who is in heaven, Matt. 23:9 the Father is also now the Father of DEVILS???

You do realize that your conclusions lead to some pretty bizarre dead ends don't you?

No. I don't. You're the one who is drawing your own conclusions.

 

[MarkT]

Went through this exercise prior. The term "man" is applied to multiple agents, not just "man." Lucifer for example was termed "a man." And most take it that Lucifer was Satan. Isa. 14:12-16. Just as the term "angel" can also be applied to Holy angels, wicked angels or even mankind angel/messengers.

So a man isn't a man? Or not just a man? What do you mean by not just a man? A man would would still be a man wouldn't he?

How many others were devils?

Judas was the only devil. Jesus said, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” John 6:70

All mankind are defiled by "evil thoughts." Apostles are not exceptions.

Matt. 15:19-20, Mark 7:21-23, Matt. 5:28, Romans 7:7-13, Romans 7:17-21.

Irrelevant.

That's only the way YOU SEE it because you see only MAN in the equations.

Apparently you only see the Devil in the equation.

Sin is of the devil. 1 John 3:8. Do the math.

There is no math involved.

I'm just seeing how bizarre the conversation gets at this point, particularly with the first few points above about devil conversions to children of God and Jesus loving devils and Jesus calling sheep devils and the Father speaking through devils and being the Father of devils. All of which is where your positions would have to conclude.

Not that we can find any evidence of any of it in the scriptures unless we don't know the basic difference between a human being and a devil.

I didn't say anything about devil conversions or Jesus loving devils (Judas was a man and a devil) or Jesus calling sheep devils (the sheep he sent out were men) or the Father speaking through devils. I did say their desire is to do their father's will, their father being the Devil. I also said the truth is not in them.

 

[smaller]

No. At the close of the age, the weeds/devils will be gathered and burned.

Ah, so Jesus loves devil humans, calls devil humans sheep, Matt. 10:16, calls devil humans as disciples and Apostles, Matt. 10:1-2, grants them powers to cast out devils, has devil humans preach the Gospel, Matt. 10:7, says their Father is God, Matt. 23:9, but they can't be saved?

Not at all. My position is Jesus treated Judas like a friend. Do you know what betray means?

Add that to the list above. Jesus can't save His devil human friends.

No. I don't. You're the one who is drawing your own conclusions.

How do we tell who these devil humans are, praytell?

 

[smaller]

So a man isn't a man? Or not just a man? What do you mean by not just a man? A man would would still be a man wouldn't he?

Here's a picture of unsaved man:

2 Cor. 4:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Here's another:

Eph. 2:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Here's another:

Acts 26:
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Do you see just a person or just people there? I don't.

Judas was the only devil.

I see. So the "real devil" that entered Judas doesn't count when Jesus said one of you is a devil and didn't have to count the real devil as the other devil?

Irrelevant.

Apparently you only see the Devil in the equation.

Well, yes actually. It would appear to me that Satan is in fact a devil. If Judas was also a devil and Satan entered Judas that would seem to account for TWO devils.

There is no math involved.

Are you saying Jesus can't count to two?

I didn't say anything about devil conversions or Jesus loving devils

You sure did, until you denied that devil humans couldn't be saved in the last post above. That's why I asked the question. So your position says Judas, the human devil, was loved by Jesus (you DID say that), called him friend, called him out as a disciple and a sheep, Matt. 10:1-2, empowered Judas, a human devil to CAST OUT devils and heal, Matt. 10:7, called God Judas' Father, Matt. 23:9, but JUDAS couldn't ever have been saved.

Don't you think you should maybe revisit your positional construct? At this point it's about the most bizarre set of stuff I've heard here recently, right next to the other guy here who thinks God is Satan's Father.

Judas was a man and a devil) or Jesus calling sheep devils (the sheep he sent out were men) or the Father speaking through devils. I did say their desire is to do their father's will, their father being the Devil. I also said the truth is not in them.

You should maybe sort through the whole claim set quite frankly. You have pieces scattered, confused and jumbled all over the board. I'm only surprised that you think you can keep reasonable track of all those conflicting claims, which we haven't even began to set next to other scriptures where they'll continue to crumble.

 

[MarkT]

Ah, so Jesus loves devil humans, calls devil humans sheep, Matt. 10:16, calls devil humans as disciples and Apostles, Matt. 10:1-2, grants them powers to cast out devils, has devil humans preach the Gospel, Matt. 10:7, says their Father is God, Matt. 23:9, but they can't be saved?

Jesus said, "I am not speaking of you all; I know whom I have chosen; it is that the scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.’ John 13:18

How do we tell who these devil humans are, praytell?

Re. the gospel, they are liars.

 

[MarkT]

Here's a picture of unsaved man:

2 Cor. 4:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Here's another:

Eph. 2:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Here's another:

Acts 26:
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Do you see just a person or just people there? I don't.

What do you mean by just a person?

I see. So the "real devil" that entered Judas doesn't count when Jesus said one of you is a devil and didn't have to count the real devil as the other devil?


Well, yes actually. It would appear to me that Satan is in fact a devil. If Judas was also a devil and Satan entered Judas that would seem to account for TWO devils.

The real Devil? I told you Judas was an unclean vessel. Judas was the vessel. Get it?

You sure did, until you denied that devil humans couldn't be saved in the last post above. That's why I asked the question. So your position says Judas, the human devil, was loved by Jesus (you DID say that), called him friend, called him out as a disciple and a sheep, Matt. 10:1-2, empowered Judas, a human devil to CAST OUT devils and heal, Matt. 10:7, called God Judas' Father, Matt. 23:9, but JUDAS couldn't ever have been saved.

I'm glad you are keeping track of everything I said.

I said Jesus loved him,
John 15:9
As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you; abide in my love. But Jesus said it to the eleven after Judas had gone out to betray him. Mt. 13:31 Maybe, "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16 would be a better proof.

Nevertheless, Jesus did say love your enemies.
Matthew 5:44
But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

Then I said he treated Judas like a friend, even calling him friend.
Matthew 26:50
Jesus said to him, “Friend, why are you here?” Then they came up and laid hands on Jesus and seized him.

Nevertheless Judas was a devil.

Don't you think you should maybe revisit your positional construct? At this point it's about the most bizarre set of stuff I've heard here recently, right next to the other guy here who thinks God is Satan's Father.


You should maybe sort through the whole claim set quite frankly. You have pieces scattered, confused and jumbled all over the board. I'm only surprised that you think you can keep reasonable track of all those conflicting claims, which we haven't even began to set next to other scriptures where they'll continue to crumble.

I didn't say anything about human devils. This is your own conclusion. I said Judas was a man and a devil. It's not an equation. There's no math involved. In spirit Judas was a devil. His desire was to do his father's will. The love of God wasn't in him.

And Jesus knew Judas did not believe. John 6:64

John 6:64
But there are some of you that do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that would betray him.

 

[chessman]

we know the 12, the disciples/Apostles were sheep, and that their Father spoke through them. Matt. 10:16, Matt. 10:20.

Who's we? Cause I certainly do not think that the disciples were four legged wolly animals.

By rights then you'd also appear to have the position that "devils" are or can be "converted" into children of God? Is this your claim?

By rights then you also appear to habe the position that "disciples/apostles" can grow wooly coats and eat grass and that the Father spoke Hebrew/Aramaic words through animals that make bahhhh sounds. Is this your claim?

Judas was sent out with the 12 as a sheep.

Well that's a little closer to what Matt 10:16 actually does say about the 12 ("I send you out as sheep" versus "the disciples/Apostles were sheep') but you are still not being accurate to the Text itself. A step in the right direction, but there's room to walk further. At least now "we" don't have to think along with your original position that the 12 "are sheep" (ate grass and grew wool). But I have an idea, let's actually post Matt 10:16, read it and see what it really does say about the 12. Yea, 'that's the ticket'. We might actually learn something else from that experience. So here goes:

Matthew 10:16 (NKJV) “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.​

And to think, it's just a 'mouse' click away. (Pun intended)

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt+10:16&version=NKJV

Yep, there it is. Jesus sent men out "as sheep" and told them to be wise "as serpents" and harmless "as doves". Great, as a follow-on disciple of Jesus myself, I really wasn't looking forward to that shearing and worming process. Nor do I know what a sheep-serpent-dove cross-bread animal looks like.

I wonder what He meant by a disciple should be "wise", "harmless" and "as sheep" though, among wolves??? I think I know.

I see no exception that Judas, specifically, was not.

Were the disciples sent out "in the midst of wolves", or not? Could Judas possibly be a wolf ('in sheeps clothing' so-to-speak). I wonder??? I know, let's try that thingy of actually reading the Text again and see if, in fact, Judas was an exception (a wolf). You know, the one who did not believe from the begining and betrayed Him and was a devil. A wolf in sheep's clothing, so-to-speak.

Here goes:

Matthew 10:17-18 (NKJV) But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues. You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles.​

Well, would you look at that. Jesus says that men will "deliver you (the 12) up to councils and scourage you (the 12) in their synagogues" and "you (the 12) will be brought before governors and kings for My sake'.

Was Judas ever delivered up to councils or scouraged in their synagogues or brought before governors and kings for His sake?
No! Poof, Judas was the exception. Wolf/devil that he was.

 

[JLB]

How about when Jesus washed the disciples feet; Did Jesus love Judas as the Father loves Jesus then?

John 13:2, 10-11 (NKJV) And supper being ended, the devil having already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray Him, ...
Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.” For He knew who would betray Him; therefore He said, “You are not all clean.”

​

I don't see anything about how much Jesus loved or didn't love Judas Iscariot, in this verse.


I don't see any scripture in the bible, whereby Jesus empowered an unbeliever, and sent him to preach the gospel to the lost, and heal the sick, raise the dead and cast out devils.

Jesus did empower Judas Iscariot to do these things, which is why I believe Judas Iscariot believed for a while.

And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.

5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. Matthew 10:1-8


I won't address any more of these off topic post's of yours.


Judas was said to believe, that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, along with the other disciples who remained with the Lord, and did not depart from Him, when the other disciples who didn't believe, departed.

64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?” 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
John 6:64-71



JLB

 

[JLB]

Acts 22:12 (NKJV) “Then a certain Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good testimony with all the Jews who dwelt there, ​

Yep, Saul was a "brother" of the Jews according to the law who dwelt in Damascus when he entered the city and after.
You didn't:


Nor answer the question:

Yes, the only believers for the first 10 years were Jews.

Here is the context, that teaches us Ananias was a believer in Jesus Christ, and referred to Saul as a brother in the Lord.


10 Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and to him the Lord said in a vision, “Ananias.”

And he said, “Here I am, Lord.”

11 So the Lord said to him, “Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus, for behold, he is praying. 12 And in a vision he has seen a man named Ananias coming in and putting his hand on him, so that he might receive his sight.”

13 Then Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem. 14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on Your name.”

15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. 16 For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.”

17 And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”
Acts 9:11-17

Saul was a believer.
Ananias was a believer.

Ananias referred to Saul as a brother "in Christ", who had believed and was going to be filled with the Holy Spirit.



JLB

 

[JLB]

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

• Judas could have reigned with Jesus Christ, had he continued with the Lord.
• This was spoken to Judas Iscariot, before he betrayed Jesus.
• Judas, like the rest of us, had a choice to make during his life.

JLB

 

[JLB]

And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him. Matthew 10:1-4

Judas was "His disciple", and one of "His sheep", at one time, before he fell away.


Judas Iscariot was a disciple of Jesus Christ, for 3 years, and was promoted to Apostle, as he "heard His Voice", "followed Him", as was "known by Jesus Christ", as a "trusted friend", before Judas betrayed Him.

Even my own familiar friend in whom I trusted, who ate my bread, has lifted up his heel against me. Psalm 41:9

Judas Iscariot was called one of "His sheep", but became lost. Judas was sent out as a "sheep" among wolves, in which he was not a wolf at that time, but became a wolf when he betrayed Jesus.

16 “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. Matthew 10:16

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28


Judas chose to turn away from Christ, in a time of temptation, as no one "snatched him" away from Christ.


Judas heard His Voice, and followed Him... for a while.




JLB

 

[JLB]

I for one, don't want to end up like Judas, so I will embrace what the word says, and apply it to myself.

There are two basic tactics, the enemy uses, once a person has received the Gospel message, to get them to fall away.

If he can't steal the word out of our heart, before we receive the word, he will bring persecution, or the desire for more of the things of this world.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. Luke 8:11-15

There is only one group, represented among the four, who end up receiving the salvation of their souls.

Those who... having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.


This principle is echoed throughout the New Testament writings, for all who have ears to hear.



JLB

 

[smaller]

Who's we? Cause I certainly do not think that the disciples were four legged wolly animals.

Nobody claimed that your positional sights have an appreciation for understanding allegories.

By rights then you also appear to habe the position that "disciples/apostles" can grow wooly coats and eat grass and that the Father spoke Hebrew/Aramaic words through animals that make bahhhh sounds. Is this your claim?

Uh, that would be a NOT. But, what you might not understand is that allegories/parables/similitudes are quite entirely REAL in the language and realm of The Spirit.

At least now "we" don't have to think along with your original position that the 12 "are sheep" (ate grass and grew wool).

I've never ever made such a claim to start with. You conjured up that notion and are trying to stick it to me. Sorry. Not buying.

The TWELVE including Judas were assuredly sheep, beyond any doubt. Does that mean they grow wool and bleat and have lambs? Uh, no. If we "mutually" have no appreciation or basis of understanding the parabolic language/imagery being deployed it's a waste of time.

But I have an idea, let's actually post Matt 10:16, read it and see what it really does say about the 12.
Yep, there it is. Jesus sent men out "as sheep"

Oh, brilliant deduction. Welcome to the world of associations. I presume anyone posting here with half a notion about scriptures kinda knows these things without being primed. Move on.

Was Judas a sheep? Assuredly so. Matt. 10:16 states it quite plainly.
Was Judas an Apostle? Assuredly so. Matt. 10:1. Was Judas empowered to cast out devils and heal? Assuredly so. Matt. 10:1-2. Was Judas a son of God? Assuredly so. Matt. 23:9, Deut. 14:1, Psalm 82:6.

I expect any real scripture student to know these fundamentals of understandings.

and told them to be wise "as serpents" and harmless "as doves". Great, as a follow-on disciple of Jesus myself, I really wasn't looking forward to that shearing and worming process. Nor do I know what a sheep-serpent-dove cross-bread animal looks like.

If you're interested in dragging me into a literal box and then making fun of me you're having fun at the expense of your own strawman.

I wonder what He meant by a disciple should be "wise", "harmless" and "as sheep" though, among wolves??? I think I know.

I doubt it, but surprise me.

Were the disciples sent out "in the midst of wolves", or not? Could Judas possibly be a wolf ('in sheeps clothing' so-to-speak).

Unlikely, because there is no exception to all TWELVE being sent "as sheep." So now you are just guessing because I suspect parable/allegory is a bit beyond your positional functional grasp.

Yes, there is a quite 'fundamental' set of ways to understand these matters and the language deployed given from the scriptures.

For example, a serpent and a viper (singular or plural) is actually Satan or devils. Get it? Not real hard stuff here. Again, I expect anybody in serious scriptural dialog to hit some basic milestones in the arena.

I wonder??? I know, let's try that thingy of actually reading the Text again and see if, in fact, Judas was an exception (a wolf). You know, the one who did not believe from the begining and betrayed Him and was a devil. A wolf in sheep's clothing, so-to-speak.

There is no exception available for Judas OR Judas would have been "isolated" from being sent as "A SHEEP." As much as you might try to find the "exception" you are seeking for Judas, it won't be found. Legitimately that is.

Here goes:

Matthew 10:17-18 (NKJV) But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues. You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles.​

Well, would you look at that. Jesus says that men will "deliver you (the 12) up to councils and scourage you (the 12) in their synagogues" and "you (the 12) will be brought before governors and kings for My sake'.

Was Judas ever delivered up to councils or scouraged in their synagogues or brought before governors and kings for His sake?
No! Poof, Judas was the exception. Wolf/devil that he was.

We have no official record of the difficulties that the TWELVE encountered when they were sent out into the cities of Israel other than the implicit difficulties that come with pronouncing Gods Words. So again, your positions are only wondering. And that, with the sole intentions of figuring out how the sins of Judas were 'worse' than the sins of other believers. I'd suggest the flaw in your position quest is on that faulty basis to start with.

Judas was a sheep. Jesus laid down His Own Life for the sheep.

What you should maybe ask your position was 'did it work for Judas' as you wonder if it will work for you?

John 10:15
As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

 

[smaller]

?

Here's a picture of unsaved man:

2 Cor. 4:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Here's another:

Eph. 2:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Here's another:

Acts 26:
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Do you see just a person or just people there? I don't.

What do you mean by just a person?

Read the above scriptures closely. When you see a person and the god of this world, the spirit of disobedience, the prince of the power of the air, Satan-the power of darkness AND the person, accounting for TWO parties, let me know. Otherwise we're just talking past each others.

It's a fairly fundamental Gospel lesson that the 'god of this world' blinds people's minds to the Gospel and as such they are "his captives." This blinding is internal, as is the "captor," internal.

 

[chessman]

I won't address any more of these off topic post's of yours.

Asking you whether you think Jesus loved Judas as the Father loved Jesus (or not) at a certain point in their history together is "off topic" to a thread that claims "Judas Iscariot:Saved for a while"? Are you sure it's off-topic? It doesn't seem off-topic to me.

Your OP claims Judas Iscariot was "Saved for a while". You should really defend your OP claim Biblically by answering relevant questions. The only reason we are even talking about Jesus' love of Judas (or not) or when exactly Saul was "converted" is that you have demonstrated an unwillingness to clearly communicate with words like "saved", even though you used the word in your OP Title. But regardless, I have just two more unanswered questions for you.

Here's what you did answer (finally):

1. You said that at some point in their history together Jesus did love Judas as the Father loved Jesus. I was gonna ask you when, exactly, but It doesn't really matter so I'll skip that question.

Here's what I need to know from your OP's position:

1. At what point did Jesus stop loving Judas as the Father loves Jesus, in your opinion? Or does Jesus still love Judas as the Father loves Jesus?

2. (I'll wait on your answer to #1)

 

[chessman]

I've never ever made such a claim to start with. You conjured up that notion and are trying to stick it to me. Sorry. Not buying.

Lot's of people haven't made the claims you attribute to them either. Including me in the past. That's the point. I was using your words back at you. You should stop stating other people's positions (sights, whatever) and let them speak for themselves.

The TWELVE including Judas were assuredly sheep, beyond any doubt.

Were they also serpents and doves???
(Nevermind, it's off topic)

 

[JLB]

Asking you whether you think Jesus loved Judas as the Father loved Jesus (or not) at a certain point in their history together is "off topic" to a thread that claims "Judas Iscariot:Saved for a while"? Are you sure it's off-topic? It doesn't seem off-topic to me.

Your OP claims Judas Iscariot was "Saved for a while". You should really defend your OP claim Biblically by answering relevant questions. The only reason we are even talking about Jesus' love of Judas (or not) or when exactly Saul was "converted" is that you have demonstrated an unwillingness to clearly communicate with words like "saved", even though you used the word in your OP Title. But regardless, I have just two more unanswered questions for you.

Here's what you did answer (finally):

1. You said that at some point in their history together Jesus did love Judas as the Father loved Jesus. I was gonna ask you when, exactly, but It doesn't really matter so I'll skip that question.

Here's what I need to know from your OP's position:

1. At what point did Jesus stop loving Judas as the Father loves Jesus, in your opinion? Or does Jesus still love Judas as the Father loves Jesus?

2. (I'll wait on your answer to #1)

This is the A & T thread.

Sound Theology is not based on opinion.


If you can't post a scripture that teaches us Jesus empowered an unbeliever to preach the Gospel to the lost, and heal the sick, raise the dead and cast out devils, which are signs that are listed as following those who believe, then we will conclude that Judas did believe... for a while.


Jesus did empower Judas Iscariot to do these things, which is why I believe Judas Iscariot believed for a while.

And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him,He gave them powerover unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.

5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. Matthew 10:1-8


JLB