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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while.
- Thread starter JLB
- Start date
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Member
Luke 22:3
Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
John 6:70
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
Let's see. There's Judas and there is Satan. I wonder which one is a devil? Must be JUDAS!
No, that doesn't work when we have a devil in the picture to account for.
Or Mark 4:15 was a reality for these men and Satan/devils did actually enter their hearts and Jesus actually addressed those entities in man that are not man, like the thousands of other examples of this fact we have in the N.T.
Luke 8:2
And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils,
Luke 8:30
And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.
That's how some people errantly read that but there is zero specific evidence that the "son of perdition" was Judas, by name. Paul brings this fact to light when he wrote of the "son of perdition" again in 2 Thes. 2:3 and 2 Thes. 2:8-9. IF Judas was "that son" dead and long gone by the time Paul wrote that we might see who the "son of perdition" really is. And Paul spells that out rather succinctly, that Wicked, Satan.
Never said it did. It says the exact opposite of your claim, that Judas' Father was God, just as the other scriptures cited to you prior state. Deut. 14:1, Psalm 82:6, Matt. 23:9, all entirely consistent and applicable to Judas as well as Matt. 10:20 states.
See the simple observations above.
chessman
Member
I asked:
"When, exactly, do you think Saul was "saved" and why?"
You answered:
A beliver.
Do you think Saul preached that Jesus is the resurrected Christ before he entered the city and received the Holy Spirit?
Do you think Judas preached that Jesus is the resurrected Christ before the resurrection?
Do you think Jesus ever loved Judas as the Father loved Jesus?
"When, exactly, do you think Saul was "saved" and why?"
You answered:
Which book, chapter and verse are you referring to, exactly? He never said "Lord Jesus Christ" while on the road to Damascus. His use of "Lord" while on the road (before or after the voice he heard but the others did not hear to confirm it) could have easily been in reference to the Father while still blind, astonished and fearful of the voice he heard. Saul had worshipped the Lord his whole life. His use of the word "Lord" was very commom to him both before and after conversion. Is that it? That he replied to the voice (a voice he heard while blinded by a bright light but the others couldn't confirm what was said and that astonished him and made him fearful) as "Lord" and you think he was converted then?
I agree, which occurs inside the city (not on the road) after receiving his sight and the Holy Spirit. That's my point. He had not meet the Holy Spirit on the road nor had anyone confirm of what the voice said to him. The others simply heard a noise and were blinded. They couldn't confirm that it was Jesus' voice to him. If you think about the events and response, he responded with fear and astonishment both before and after he heard a voice say it was Jesus.
Yes, in the city.
I agree. But he was a chosen instrument to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ's resurrection well before his conversion.
A beliver.
Acts 9:20 (NKJV) Immediately he preached the Christ in the synagogues, that He is the Son of God.
Acts 9:22 (NKJV) But Saul increased all the more in strength, and confounded the Jews who dwelt in Damascus, proving that this Jesus is the Christ.
Do you think Saul preached that Jesus is the resurrected Christ before he entered the city and received the Holy Spirit?
Do you think Judas preached that Jesus is the resurrected Christ before the resurrection?
Do you think Jesus ever loved Judas as the Father loved Jesus?
Of course he was converted on the road to Damascus, as he confessed with his mouth, Jesus as Lord, and began to submit himself to Him, to obey Him.
5 And he said, "Who are You, Lord?" Then the Lord said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads."
6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, "Lord, what do You want me to do?" Then the Lord said to him, "Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do." Acts 9:5-6
Even still, the fact is Paul was a believer, when he began to preach Christ.
As plainly shown from the scriptures.
17 And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit."
18 Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized.
19 So when he had received food, he was strengthened. Then Saul spent some days with the disciples at Damascus.
20Immediately he preached the Christ in the synagogues, that He is the Son of God. Acts 9:17-20
Saul confessed Jesus as his Lord, was called "brother" and then baptized, all BEFORE he preached Christ.
JLB
Agreed.
I know Paul was a believer, not an unbeliever, when he preached Christ.
Judas was sent by Jesus Christ, as an apostle, after he was a disciple for 3 1/2 years, and was empowered by Christ to preach the Gospel, heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out devils, which are signs that follower believers.
There is no scripture in the bible, whereby Jesus promoted an unbeliever to apostle, and empowered him to preach the Gospel to the lost, and heal the sick, and raise the dead, and cast out devils.
JLB
Again, as I said before, here is when Saul, was converted:
3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”
5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”
Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”
6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?”
Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”
Acts 9:3-6
JLB
chessman
Member
In any Scripture you like. Do you think that Jesus ever loved Judas as the Father loved Jesus?
John 15:9-11 (NKJV) “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. “These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Of course.
He did not mean Lord as Messiah or Master at that point.
Lord is used in different ways.
Based on this scripture, I would say yes.
As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you;...
John 15:9
JLB
41 Then Peter said to Him, “Lord, do You speak this parable only to us, or to all people?”
42 And the Lord said, “Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them theirportion of food in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44 Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has. 45 But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk,46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
Luke 12:41-46
Again, as shown from this same parable from Matthew 24, the end result of those who are His servants, and were promoted, then fell away because of temptation, is they will end up in the same place as the unbelievers.
JLB
42 And the Lord said, “Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them theirportion of food in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44 Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has. 45 But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk,46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
Luke 12:41-46
Again, as shown from this same parable from Matthew 24, the end result of those who are His servants, and were promoted, then fell away because of temptation, is they will end up in the same place as the unbelievers.
JLB
Saul, who lived as a Pharisee, which we as gentiles could not imagine, knowing the scriptures by heart and able to recite them from memory, and as being strict to the point of putting people to death, for preaching the Gospel, didn't use the word Lord in a casual way.
9 “Indeed, I myself thought I must do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth. 10 This I also did in Jerusalem, and many of the saints I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I cast my vote against them.11 And I punished them often in every synagogue and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly enraged against them, I persecuted them even to foreign cities.
12 “While thus occupied, as I journeyed to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests, 13 at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who journeyed with me. 14 And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ 15 So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.
16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ Acts 26:9-18
So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?” Acts 9:6
JLB
9 “Indeed, I myself thought I must do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth. 10 This I also did in Jerusalem, and many of the saints I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I cast my vote against them.11 And I punished them often in every synagogue and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly enraged against them, I persecuted them even to foreign cities.
12 “While thus occupied, as I journeyed to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests, 13 at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who journeyed with me. 14 And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ 15 So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.
- Jesus just revealed to Paul who He is:
16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ Acts 26:9-18
- Now that The Lord Jesus, tells Paul about the ministry He has for him, after revealing who He is, Paul responds with these words:
So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?” Acts 9:6
JLB
chessman
Member
You answered:
You mean he was "converted" from persecutor of Christians into a true Christian believer (saved, Indwelt by the Holy Spirit) by replying "Lord" to the voice on the road? Is that what you mean by your bold/red in verse 6?
But this is before entering "into the city". Yet the Lord told him to go "into the city" and he would be told what he must do there in the city.
Are you suggesting that he was saved 'outside the city' when the Lord told him he must go "into the city"? I'm confused by your answer and what it takes for an unbeliever to become a true/genuine/born again believer. Didn't you say he was converted/saved outside the city but then also say it is necessary to obey Him???
So, even though Jesus told Saul to go "into the city and ...", it is your position that Saul was saved while outside the city? You sure about that?
I guess maybe there is a good amount of clarification needed to defend your OP claim about Judas Iscariot (and really all the OSAS threads over the years) then. It is your claim from the OP title that Judas Iscariot was "Saved for a while". What is your definition of being a "saved" person?
Is it your opinion that people are "saved" (i.e. A true/genuine believer in Jesus Christ as Lord and thusly would be judged as one of His sheep without actually obeying Jesus? I mean, if Saul was saved outside the city per your claim, yet Jesus told him to go "into the city and ...", Paul had not done what Jesus told him he must do.
This could be the jest of all my (and others I'm sure) confusion concerning years of your claiming 'believe for a while = saved for a while'. We are not using the same definition of "saved"! And on Christmas Day, of all days to discover this fundamental misunderstanding.
Might I suggest that we both (all) use the SoF definition of this site?
Doesn't it take actually; believing AND obeying AND being Born Again by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to be a true/genuine believer, in your opinion?
From this sites SoF:
"We believe that genuine believers are born again by the Holy Spirit of God, and are indwelt, baptized into the body of Christ, the true church..."
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Converted, as in the biblical sense:
2 Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, 3 and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 18:2-3
and again
19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, Acts 3:19
JLB
I'm saying he "believed" Jesus is Lord "outside the city"... and demonstrated that he believed by the act of obedience.
Saul, who became known as Paul, believed steadfast to the end, as he held fast to the word that was first spoken to Him by the Lord, and kept the faith, and therefore finished his course, unlike Judas who believed for a while, then fell away.
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 2 Timothy 2:7
The Lord Jesus revealed who He was, and Saul believed, and submitted himself to obey, and did what the Lord instructed him to do.
12 “While thus occupied, as I journeyed to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests, 13 at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who journeyed with me. 14 And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ 15 So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.
- Jesus just revealed to Paul who He is:
16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ Acts 26:9-18
- Now that The Lord Jesus, tells Paul about the ministry He has for him, after revealing who He is, Paul responds with these words:
So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?” Acts 9:6
JLB