Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while.

[smaller]

Lot's of people haven't made the claims you attribute to them either. Including me in the past. That's the point.

I've never in the many years posting here staked any claims to people being literal sheep. No, not once. I have no idea what gave you that idea other than your own idea.

I was using your words back at you. You should stop stating other people's positions (sights, whatever) and let them speak for themselves.

Go find them then.

Were they also serpents and doves???

Already did this with you. The serpent and viper is an allegory term for Satan and his minions just AS sheep is an allegory term for MAN.

But if we don't have a fundamental basis for the what the terms associate with, we're going to get off track rather quickly. When anyone makes humans into devils they are OFF TRACK with understanding association terms and who they apply to.

(Nevermind, it's off topic)

I think you might be in over your head with understanding associations.

Here is a very fundamental lesson of the Gospel with "associations" applied to understand the field of our engagement:

2 Cor. 4:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

THEM in the above are SHEEP. Unsaved mankind. Humans that we see with our eyes.

IF we are observant to the language of God and His Christ, we will also see that INTERNALLY they are CAPTIVES of Satan. The SERPENT.

That party is not visible to us, but IS REAL and really IS is upon/in their minds, blinding them to the Gospel. Just as Jesus showed Paul, here for example:

Acts 26:
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Our mutual delight in handling and delivering the GOSPEL is to divide one party from the other. To LOVE one and CONDEMN the other.

Got it? Great! Let's move on with this essential BASIC in mind.

Any believer who doesn't have a clear picture of unsaved MAN is not going to be very effective with the Gospel.

And IF you consider the above to be TRUE and TRUTHFUL, then perhaps we can take a more accurate look at JUDAS? And the even more fundamental picture that drives the entire package, as found in Mark 4:15 and the other seed parables, which are REAL matters in the identical vein, as the above scriptures are.

It has been a bit of an eye opener in this thread to see how many "believers" actually think people, human beings, are DEVILS, such as with Judas. It doesn't surprise me, but I think that kind of spiritual blindness and lack of accurate term accounting is a shame, personally. I'd be a bit embarrassed if I didn't understand the quite basic fundamental scriptural, spiritual principles above. It's no wonder the churches are a mess.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Judas was not saved for awhile. We have been saved when we confess Jesus is Lord and God raised him from the dead.

Romans 10:9

 

[JLB]

Judas was not saved for awhile. We have been saved when we confess Jesus is Lord and God raised him from the dead.

Romans 10:9

Were they other Apostles of the Lord saved ?


Here is what Jesus taught His disciples:

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. Luke 8:11-15


Key Phrase: ... lest they should believe and be saved.


According to what Jesus taught His twelve disciples - Believe = Saved.

What more can we conclude, from what Jesus taught His disciples.

• Believe = Saved
• Believe for a while = Saved for a while.

JLB

 

[chessman]

I don't see anything about how much Jesus loved or didn't love Judas Iscariot, in this verse.

It says Satan entered Judas. So did Jesus still love Judas as the Father loves the Son as Satan entered Judas?

There's nothing in the Bible about Judas gaining or loosing his salvation. Yet your OP claims Judas was "saved for a while". I'm just trying to figure out from your Theology (study of God) when (exactly) you claim Judas lost his salvation. Since you say he was saved for a while and loved by Jesus as the Father loved the Son.

This is the A & T thread.

Yes it is. Then apologetically defend (provide a reasoned defense for why you believe something is true) when Judas lost his salvation. Sometime before Satan entered Judas or after or never.

You claim he was saved sometime during his 3 1/2 years of following Jesus (while stealing for the money bag) because Peter claimed the disciples believed and Jesus sent the disciples preaching the Kingdom (as the Jewish leaders were supposed to do). And you said that you believe Jesus loved Judas as the Father loved the son at some point.

So when, based on your theology, did Jesus stop loving Judas as the Father loves the Son? If it's not when Satan entered Judas, then when. Maybe when Judas betrayed Jesus with a kiss?

Or does Jesus still love Judas as the Father loves the Son?

 

[chessman]

Go find them then

Here's your first reply post in this thread

The difficulty your position will always have is that your position sees only Judas.

which you made to a member who can see more than Judas.

There has even been a couple of posters who refer to Judas as a devil, which is again, not true.

Yes, I refered to Judas as "a devil" and so did Jesus early in Jesus' ministry :

Your statement number 3 is the most disconcerting, that you would think any human is A DEVIL. That is simply not a true statement.

John 6:70 (NASB) Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?”​

[edited personal comment]

(Edited out comment about staff actions - ironic)

But my point was and still is, you are telling people that simply repeat Jesus' claim that one of the disciples was a devil (both earlier in His ministry and just before the cross) that their 'sight' is wrong, yet you say disciples where sheep. And these people (like me) fully understand Judas wasn't The Devil (Satan). Yet the Text you are referring to doesn't even say they were sheep. It says they were sent out "as sheep" and to be "as serpents" and "as doves".

we know the 12, the disciples/Apostles were sheep

Quite the double standard, really.

I know the disciples were not literally sheep and that Judas was not literally The Devil (Satan).

 

[MarkT]

I don't see anything about how much Jesus loved or didn't love Judas Iscariot, in this verse.


I don't see any scripture in the bible, whereby Jesus empowered an unbeliever, and sent him to preach the gospel to the lost, and heal the sick, raise the dead and cast out devils.

Jesus did empower Judas Iscariot to do these things, which is why I believe Judas Iscariot believed for a while.

And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.

5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. Matthew 10:1-8


I won't address any more of these off topic post's of yours.


Judas was said to believe, that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, along with the other disciples who remained with the Lord, and did not depart from Him, when the other disciples who didn't believe, departed.

64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?” 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
John 6:64-71



JLB

You're forgetting Jesus knew Judas was a devil from the beginning of his ministry. In fact Jesus chose Judas to fulfill the scripture.
John 13:18
I am not speaking of you all; I know whom I have chosen; it is that the scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.’

Let's not make many assumptions here. Judas was one of the twelve and Jesus did send out the twelve to say the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Were they instructed to say more than that? Let's not assume anything. You think Judas was a believer because he was one of the twelve, but we know Judas was chosen to betray Jesus. So how can you say he was a believer? We don't know from his words what Judas believed, but we do know from his actions that Judas didn't really care about the poor and he did take money from the money box. John 12:6

John tells us many disciples fell away. John 6:64-71 Were they saved for a while? (I mean before they fell away? I don't think so. John tells us Jesus knew from the beginning that they did not believe and Jesus knew who they were and he knew who Judas was. John 6:64 They did not believe, according to Jesus, and yet John calls them disciples. So the fact Judas continued to follow Jesus doesn't tell us Judas believed.

 

[JLB]

It says Satan entered Judas. So did Jesus still love Judas as the Father loves the Son as Satan entered Judas?

There's nothing in the Bible about Judas gaining or loosing his salvation. Yet your OP claims Judas was "saved for a while". I'm just trying to figure out from your Theology (study of God) when (exactly) you claim Judas lost his salvation. Since you say he was saved for a while and loved by Jesus as the Father loved the Son.

Everything about this line of questioning is off topic, and completely opinionated.


Please post scripture to validate anything that relates to the topic.


I don't see any scripture in the bible, whereby Jesus empowered an unbeliever, and sent him to preach the gospel to the lost, and heal the sick, raise the dead and cast out devils.

• Jesus did empower Judas Iscariot to do these things, which is why I believe Judas Iscariot believed for a while.

And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.

5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. Matthew 10:1-8

• Judas was said to believe, that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, along with the other disciples who remained with the Lord, and did not depart from Him, when the other disciples who didn't believe, departed.

64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?” 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
John 6:64-71



JLB

 

[MarkT]

Likewise this is what Jesus said to the twelve.
Matthew 10:16
“Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.

Why should we assume Judas was his sheep when we know he was a devil? We are not believing Jesus. 'As sheep in the midst of wolves suggests danger.

 

[JLB]

There are two basic tactics, the enemy uses, once a person has received the Gospel message, to get them to fall away.

If he can't steal the word out of our heart, before we receive the word, he will bring persecution, or the desire for more of the things of this world.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. Luke 8:11-15

There is only one group, represented among the four, who end up receiving the salvation of their souls.

Those who... having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.


This principle is echoed throughout the New Testament writings, for all who have ears to hear.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Likewise this is what Jesus said to the twelve.
Matthew 10:16
“Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.

Why should we assume Judas was his sheep when we know he was a devil? We are not believing Jesus. 'As sheep in the midst of wolves suggests danger.

Because the scripture teaches us he was sent as a sheep, among "wolves".


This teaches us he was not a wolf at the time Jesus said this.

Matthew 10:16
“Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.


Jesus never empowered an unbeliever to preach the Gospel to the lost.

Jesus never "sent", as an apostle, an unbeliever to preach the Gospel to the lost, and to heal the sick, and raise the dead, and to cast out devils.

Casting out devils is one of the signs that follow those who believe.

And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons;... Mark 16:17

You're forgetting Jesus knew Judas was a devil from the beginning of his ministry.

Judas, like the rest of us, had a choice to make.

Judas could have reigned with Christ and the others from one of the twelve throne he was appointed to.

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 18:28





JLB

 

[smaller]

Yes, I refered to Judas as "a devil" and so did Jesus early in Jesus' ministry :

When Jesus deploys the term Satan and devils, He is directing those terms to actual Satan and devils. Humans are not Satan and devils.

But my point was and still is, you are telling people that simply repeat Jesus' claim that one of the disciples was a devil (both earlier in His ministry and just before the cross) that their 'sight' is wrong,

They make the quite false claim that Judas was a devil. And they miss entirely the fact that "the devil" worked in the heart and Judas and entered Judas.

The most obvious point of the example is that IF the devil had worked in Judas' heart, the devil did, John 13:2, and Satan entered Judas, Satan did, when Jesus said "one of you" is a devil, that obviously would be THE DEVIL.

IF the devil and Judas, also a devil, were a reality, then Jesus, if He was speaking truthfully, should have accounted for TWO devils, the devil and Judas, another devil. Get it?

The only strange thing that happens, happens in the readers own minds when they entirely MISS the obvious devil in the equations.

yet you say disciples where sheep.

Jesus said they, the TWELVE who were sent out, were sent "AS SHEEP", not me. Matt. 10:16, "AS SHEEP" applies to the TWELVE including Judas.

And these people (like me) fully understand Judas wasn't The Devil (Satan).
Yet the Text you are referring to doesn't even say they were sheep. It says they were sent out "as sheep" and to be "as serpents" and "as doves".

Let's not go through this stupid drill again. Nobody says they were literal sheep.

I know the disciples were not literally sheep and that Judas was not literally The Devil (Satan).

At this point several posters still have not figured out that human beings are not devils. And they will probably remain with that sight. It's a hard error to shake.

 

[smaller]

Likewise this is what Jesus said to the twelve.
Matthew 10:16
“Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.

Why should we assume Judas was his sheep when we know he was a devil? We are not believing Jesus. 'As sheep in the midst of wolves suggests danger.

Jesus, addressing ALL TWELVE APOSTLES, sent them out "as sheep" which included Judas.

IF we took your sight, Jesus should have said "I'm sending ELEVEN of you "as sheep" and one devil. Obviously that isn't the fact in writing. Matt. 10:16.

That's why your position ends up with "devil sheep" and Jesus loving "devils" and having "devil friends." Quite frankly all pretty bizarre conclusions.

The general fault of most christian sights is that they have NO ACCOUNTING for the fact that two separate parties are shown in the scriptures to be MAN. That would be MAN and devil.

This fact is plastered all over the Gospels. Yet almost no one takes these facts into account when they engage christian positions/understandings.

Even if these facts are put in front of believers faces they still can't see it, yet alone "factor" the "fact" into dialog:

2 Cor. 4:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Just as they can't manage to see the same two separate parties here:

Mark 4:
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

 

[dirtfarmer]

dirtfarmer here

632 posts, not including this one, about whether Judas was saved or not. It seems as if salvation for the "12" is being argued before Jesus was crucified. According to scripture salvation is dependent on the resurrection of Jesus. If Jesus had not resurrected all we would have would be a myrtyr, not a savior.

Those in the old testament looked forward to the coming of the messiah, but those of the new testament look back to the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ. Did Judas look for the resurrection of Christ, if not there was no salvation.

 

[MarkT]

Jesus, addressing ALL TWELVE APOSTLES, sent them out "as sheep" which included Judas.

IF we took your sight, Jesus should have said "I'm sending ELEVEN of you "as sheep" and one devil. Obviously that isn't the fact in writing. Matt. 10:16.

Didn't I just say he sent out the twelve? He sent them out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Danger is implied, so be careful be wise as serpents and innocent as doves. That's what Jesus is saying. He is not saying Judas belonged to his sheep.

He said it to the twelve. So what? When the rain falls it falls on the good and the bad. You are assuming a change in ownership. You think Judas belonged to his sheep. Not true. Jesus didn't say you are all my sheep. No. He said, 'one of you is a devil'. Judas was a devil, a small 'd' Devil. Jesus knew all but the twelve would fall away from the beginning of his ministry. Why? Because he had chosen them.

 

[MarkT]

That's why your position ends up with "devil sheep" and Jesus loving "devils" and having "devil friends." Quite frankly all pretty bizarre conclusions.

They are your conclusions, not mine.

 

[smaller]

Didn't I just say he sent out the twelve? He sent them out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Danger is implied, so be careful be wise as serpents and innocent as doves. That's what Jesus is saying. He is not saying Judas belonged to his sheep.

It is only you who infers that the TWELVE were not sent out as sheep. You infer, in your own mind, that only ELEVEN were sheep. That's not the fact, as written. Matt. 10:16

He said it to the twelve. So what?

So what is not a valid approach.

 

[MarkT]

Jesus said he kept them all and lost none except the son of perdition.
John 17:12
While I was with them, I kept them in thy name, which thou hast given me; I have guarded them, and none of them is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.

If you don't believe Judas was a devil, then you are not believing Jesus.

 

[smaller]

Jesus said he kept them all and lost none except the son of perdition.
John 17:12
While I was with them, I kept them in thy name, which thou hast given me; I have guarded them, and none of them is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.

If you don't believe Judas was a devil, then you are not believing Jesus.

Again it's only in the mind of the reader that inserts Judas as 'the son of perdition.' Scripture doesn't make that claim. Scripture doesn't say Judas is or will be in hell either.

The "son of perdition" is AGAIN brought to view in 2 Thes. 2:3 and it is not referring to Judas, but that Wicked, Satan. 2 Thes. 2:8-9. And who entered Judas? Uh, yeah, the 'son of perdition.'

 

[MarkT]

Because the scripture teaches us he was sent as a sheep, among "wolves".


This teaches us he was not a wolf at the time Jesus said this.

Matthew 10:16
“Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.


Jesus never empowered an unbeliever to preach the Gospel to the lost.

Jesus never "sent", as an apostle, an unbeliever to preach the Gospel to the lost, and to heal the sick, and raise the dead, and to cast out devils.

Casting out devils is one of the signs that follow those who believe.

And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons;... Mark 16:17




Judas, like the rest of us, had a choice to make.

Judas could have reigned with Christ and the others from one of the twelve throne he was appointed to.

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 18:28





JLB

When it rains, everybody gets wet, both the good and the bad. Jesus said, "Every plant which my Father has not planted will be rooted up." Mt. 15:13 Judas was the devil's seed.

12 Then the disciples came and said to him, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?” 13 He answered, “Every plant which my heavenly Father has not planted will be rooted up. 14 Let them alone; they are blind guides. And if a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit.” Mt. 15:12-14 RSV

Jesus did not say, 'You are all my sheep'. No. He said, "One of you is a devil".

 

[chessman]

Everything about this line of questioning is off topic, and completely opinionated.

No it's not. Your OP makeS the claim that Judas was saved for a while. I'm simply asking you when He lost his salvation. You can answer with Scripture or not. Up to you.