Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while.

[MarkT]

2 Cor. 4:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

THEM in the above are SHEEP. Unsaved mankind. Humans that we see with our eyes.

As Christians, the Lord is our Shepherd and we are his sheep. Read Ps. 23:1 "The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want;"

2 Cor. 4:4 says, 'the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers'. RSV Unbelievers do not believe. How do you call them sheep?

The sheep follow the shepherd, they are harmless, the shepherd leads them to pasture, they know the shepherd's voice, they do not follow strangers.
John 10:4-6Revised Standard Version (RSV)
4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 This figure Jesus used with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them.

 

[GodsGrace]

Children of the devil are devils. Fairly simple observation. Mankind are not devils. Again, a fairly simple observation.

The reasons the simplicity is difficult to see is multifold, primarily because we are all subject to a certain form of blindness to perceive "unseen" entities. And are "naturally" inclined to see only man.

Even though it's quite fairly and openly obvious throughout the N.T. that scripture deals with devils IN man, people just don't get it. The reason they don't is because we ALL deal with that "adverse spiritual working" ourselves, internally, that resists the fact.

No believer really cares to hear that their own sin is of the devil for example. They'll resist this sight every time. If we observe "two parties" there we might even see why the fact is resisted and WHO resists it. 1 John 3:8 ----

Children of the devil are men who are influenced by the devil. If anything else, we'd be possessed and we're not, we're influenced.
I have a question for you Smaller: Is satan omnipresent? The Holy Spirit can be everywhere at the same time. Can satan?
I believe we all know about unseen entities. You know who are worst enemies are? The ones we cannot see. The one, or ones, that prowl the earth, seeking whom they will devour, or he will devour. Why is he roaming the earth? Because he cannot be everyplace at once, like the Holy Spirit can. So we could be indwelt by the Holy Spirit, but not by satan. And if so, we are possessed.
I doubt anyone here resists the fact that an adverse spirit is at work, always ready to tempt us and happy to see us fail, when we fail, many times, every day.



I would point out that all of orthodoxy considers mankind as Gods children, blinded as they may be to Christ. And a good bulk of Protestantism has the same sight. Nobody trying to witness to a spiritually blinded person tells them they are devils unless they are in some kind of fringe cult.

Most Christians advise the unsaved that God in Christ does actually LOVE them and use that fact as a basis of sharing the Gospel. John 3:16.

I cannot speak for all of orthodoxy, but one church believes that God is the Father of everyone because He created everyone: However, not everyone is God's son, as not everyone is saved. God does love everyone, He loves humanity. He wishes that all men be saved,
1 Timothy 2:3-4
In this way Orthodoxy is correct.
When witnessing it's good to tell people that God loved them enough to make a way of salvation for them. And then tell them why they must be saved since they are on the road to damnation, and that from birth.



And that would be a sight that makes people devils. Children of the Wicked one. I can only point to the fact that children of the wicked one are devils, not mankind.

I've used this example for Judas many times in this thread already. All of Israel were taught, by scriptures, that they really ARE Gods children, believer or unbeliever. Deut. 14:1, Psalm 82:6, affirmed by Jesus in Matt. 23:9, and laid on Judas and the other Apostles specifically in Matt. 10:16 and Matt. 10:20.

Jesus didn't come to covert "devils" into children of God. That position is found nowhere in the scriptures. Unfortunately when believers don't have clear lines drawn between people and devils the lines get blurred. Most simply have an accounting of MAN only. They leave out the devil and Gods Workings. Since devils are unseen and are upon/within man, it's doubly difficult. People tend to judge a man as just a man. That's NOT how scripture shows us "man." Scripture shows man and devil in the same set of shoes. Mark 4:15, even with Paul himself in 2 Cor. 12:7, or by John in 1 John 3:8.

Are you saying I don't have a clear line between people and devils? I leave nothing out.
There are Children of God - who are tempted by the devil.
There are Children of satan - who live to do satan's will. Children, NOT devils.
John 8:41-44

I'd expect any Christian should really know these quite fundamental understandings. When we are tempted by the tempter, the worst sinner who ever existed is working WITHIN our minds, doing so. So, where does that place 'the tempter?' Seems rather obvious to me. But believers in general just don't see it.

We're not sharing the Gospel with and trying to convert DEVIL humans. We share to instill in INTERNAL DIVISION between man and his spiritual captor. Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2 all show this very basic TWO different party construct of MAN as do many many other scriptures. THE GREAT DIVIDER IS CHRIST IN US. And we, even by Spiritual Instinct, KNOW we have to have this INTERNAL DIVISION working in ourselves, at all times. Christ AIDS us, directly, in this process, dividing us, so we are not pawns of and controlled by our own 'evil present' with us.

I agree with the above.


And you see just "man" in that picture. That's not an accurate picture.

I don't see "just man" anywhere.
I see a man with God next to him
I see a man with satan next to him, already conguered
and satan forever trying to also conquer the man with God.


Everyone gives an account at the end of their lives for both good and evil. This too is beyond any uncertainty. We should understand our own internal wickedness is a direct association to the spirit of disobedience that is NOT US as believers. But as stated, believers really don't care to hear that "our own sins" are just as John states, "of the devil." When believers know this connection fact they are not as likely to be his pawns in the flesh and will be even MORE repulsed by sin, knowing from whom it stems.

I've generally found that believers who can't make this connection with their own sin won't read or understand scriptures in general, very well, on that side of the ledger. It's pretty easy to notch off all of the good stuff in the scriptures, and direct all the stuff we don't like to some other people. That's NOT how we are supposed to engage the Word. Every Word of God is for "us." Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4. And some of that Word IS directed to the spirit of disobedience that 'all' are bound with in the flesh. Romans 11:32.

I've made this note of fact many times. Believers can make claims that the sin indwelling their own flesh, and the evil present with them is "obedient" to the Gospel, but that is technically an impossibility. The Spirit is factually OPPOSED to that working in everyone. Romans 7:17-21, Gal. 5:17. Just as much against us as for us. Just as much as the Spirit was against the sins of Judas, the Spirit is equally against our own sins.

Of course our sins are of the devil. They certainly are not of God. Our sins are of the influence of the devil.
However, as I've stated to you before, saying that sin "indwells us" and is in our flesh is not biblical.
Where does it state that sin "indwells" us? I only know that the Holy Spirit can indwell a person. Please show me the scripture.

It's easy to pot shot Judas. It's much more difficult to see our own sins as being demonic in nature. We just like to perch our "whole" self on one side of the scriptures and completely ignore the fact that all of us have, as Paul did, evil present with(IN) us. Romans 7:21. No one really cares to put and keep that working under adverse judgments of God in Christ. We prefer ignorance. And we prefer scriptural salve to ourselves that won't spread that far and was never intended to.

Always thinking of the devil gives him the glory.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

And was blinded for three days:

John 12:29-30, 34, 39-40, 42-43 (LEB) Now the crowd that stood there and heard it said it had thundered. Others were saying, “An angel has spoken to him!”​

Ah, but some heard the voice and simply thought it was the voice of an angel. In my opinion, like Saul. But Saul had a destination to be healed and to be baptized with the Holy Spirit in the city.

Jesus answered and said, “This voice has not happened for my sake, but for your sake. ​

He's referring to those in the crowd that heard the voice, but thought it was an angel (Like Saul, in my opinion) as the others in the crowd didn't hear a voice at all, they heard a sound (like those traveling with Saul).

Then the crowd replied to him, “We have heard from the law that the Christ remains forever! And how do you say that the Son of Man must be lifted up? Who is this Son of Man?” For this reason they were not able to believe, because again Isaiah said,​

“He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they see with their eyes and understand with their hearts and turn, and I heal them.”
​

Again, Saul was healed inside the city (not out). Your view has Jesus striking a converted genuine believer blind on the spot versus healing a blind unbeliever (though an unbeliever destined to be a believer) in the process of washing away his sins. Suffice it to say, I believe my view makes a lot more sense.


And the Bible clearly says Saul was healed and Saul's sins were washed away inside the city.

Acts 9:11, 18-21 (LEB) And the Lord said to him, “Get up, go to the street called ‘Straight’ and in the house of Judas look for a man named Saul from Tarsus. For behold, he is praying,

Acts 22:5, 11, 16 as indeed the high priest and the whole council of elders can testify about me, from whom also I received letters to the brothers in Damascus, and was traveling there to lead away those who were there also tied up to Jerusalem so that they could be punished. And as I could not see as a result of the brightness of that light, I arrived in Damascus led by the hand of those who were with me.
​

Maybe, maybe not. Or maybe Ananias knew what God was about to do with Saul. But notice how Saul had a letter to the "brothers" from the High Priests. It's inconclusive to base Saul's conversion on the use of the word "brother". It's not even clear that Ananias was of The Way. What's clear is that Ananias was still in good standing with those "brothers" in the city looking to arrest and punish those of The Way. So if he was of The Way (Christian), he did so relatively in the shadows (which is what I believe). But ask yourself this, since you agree that Saul's companions did not convert on the road. Who's house did they lead him to? Why would he be in the house of someone of The Way, if it were persecutors that led him to the city street and house???

And now why are you delaying? Get up, be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name!’
​

You're not going to convince me that Saul came into the city a washed man! Or one healed of blindness.

And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes and he regained his sight and got up and was baptized, and after taking food, he regained his strength.

And immediately he began proclaiming Jesus in the synagogues: “This one is the Son of God!” (see John 12)​

According to Paul, Saul was occupied with it all the way into the city. After that, I don't know what happened to it. Maybe he gave it to the man in Damascus named Judas, IDK.

Acts 26:12 (NKJV) “While thus occupied, as I journeyed to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests, ...​

I mentioned it because I was quoting the SoF belief in what constitutes a "genuine believer".



Close: Saul didn't know how to discern the voice being Jesus without the Holy Spirit's indwelling.




Paul is recounting the experience he had as Saul. No one can discern (and genuinely believe) the spiritual things (like the indwelling of the Holy Spirit) without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit for it is spiritually discerned.


Are you talking about water (H2O) baptism or baptism by the Holy Spirit of God. I haven't once mentioned water baptism. Obviously, water baptism is not required via the thief on the cross. But baptism by the Holy Spirit of God is required per this sites' SoF for genuine believers.


So the others were 'converted' on your view? Again, Saul never even said "Jesus" while on the road. It was Paul's testimony later (after he had discerned it) that the voice was Jesus'.



Jesus and the people of The Way. Per Paul's own testimony he went into the city occupied with the letter of persecution.



All your claims are not wrong. But two were. The two I pointed out Scripturally.

I believe I answered all your relevant questions.

Actually you haven't.
You put a lot of importance on the fact that Paul was carrying a letters given to him by the High Priest in Jerusalem to deliver to the synagogues in Damascus. You've stated that, as far as you know, the letters were still delivered.
Above you say that you don't know what happened to the letters.
This is exactly correct. So you cannot take a position on a fact that is unknown to us.

My contention is that Paul did NOT deliver the letters to the synagogues.
I'm speaking specifically about Paul, not those who were riding with him.
He did not deliver them because by the time he got to Damascus, he was already saved and NO LONGER persecuted Jewish believers in Christ.

I'd like to end it here since we're repeating at this point and are making no progress.
Just this:
Does one believe first and then the Holy Spirit comes to him
OR
Does the Holy Spirit seek the person and then the person comes to believe?

The answer is no. 2. God is always seeking us.
We reply.

Wondering

 

[chessman]

I'd like to end it here since we're repeating at this point and are making no progress.
Just this:
Does one believe first and then the Holy Spirit comes to him
OR
Does the Holy Spirit seek the person and then the person comes to believe?

The answer is no. 2. God is always seeking us.
We reply.

Wondering

Which is where I started my first post #14:

John 6:63-65, 69-71 (LEB). The Spirit is the one who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. ​

Judas had not been given The Spirit. None of the Twelve had, until after Jesus' resurrection and ascension.

The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him. ​

​

 

[GodsGrace]

Which is were I started my first post #14:

​

I understand your position.
I am certain of Paul's moment of salvation.
I am not as certain about Judas'.
I have more certainty about his sad end.
I say "more" because I believe we cannot be sure of a persons state at death. He might have repented at the last moment.
This is unlikely, however, in the case of Judas because of all the statements Jesus made about him, as you noted.
I'd say that indeed, he was lost in the end.

Thanks for the exchange.

Wondering

 

[chessman]

Thanks for the exchange.

Thank you as well.

 

[JLB]

about whether Judas was saved or not.

And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.

5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. 9 Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your money belts, 10 nor bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staffs; for a worker is worthy of his food.

11 “Now whatever city or town you enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and stay there till you go out. 12 And when you go into a household, greet it.13 If the household is worthy, let your peace come upon it. But if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. 15 Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city! Matthew 10:1-15



Judas Iscariot followed Jesus Christ for 3 1/2 years, as a disciple, then was sent out as an Apostle, being empowered to preach the Gospel to the lost... freely giving to them the salvation message that he himself had received, and to heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out devils, as well as given to each household the peace he had, if they received.

The kingdom of God is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost.

• If none of these things qualify a person as a believer, especially the signs Jesus said would follow those who believe, then please tell us what does, qualify a person as a believer?

• Do you think it is somehow impossible, to believe for a while then fall away?

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13




JLB

 

[JLB]

No it's not. Your OP makeS the claim that Judas was saved for a while. I'm simply asking you when He lost his salvation. You can answer with Scripture or not. Up to you.

You keep asking about Jesus loving Judas, as the Father loved Jesus.


That is off topic and opinionated.


Here is when Judas lost his salvation.

3 Then Judas, His betrayer, seeing that He had been condemned, was remorseful and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, 4 saying, “I have sinned by betraying innocent blood.”And they said, “What is that to us? You see to it!” 5 Then he threw down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed, and went and hanged himself. Matthew 27:3-5

and again

18 (Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out. 19 And it became known to all those dwelling in Jerusalem; so that field is called in their own language, Akel Dama, that is, Field of Blood.) 20 “For it is written in the Book of Psalms:

‘Let his dwelling place be desolate, and let no one live in it’; and, ‘Let another take his office.’ Acts 1:18-20


When Judas died, he died in his sins, unlike Peter who repented and returned to the Lord and was restored.


No one forced Judas to kill himself.



JLB

 

[JLB]

When it rains, everybody gets wet, both the good and the bad. Jesus said, "Every plant which my Father has not planted will be rooted up." Mt. 15:13 Judas was the devil's seed.

This says nothing about Judas being the devil's seed.

13 But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. Matthew 15:13


This was spoken concerning the Pharisee's, not Judas Iscariot.

12 Then His disciples came and said to Him, “Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?”
13 But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. 14 Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.” Matthew 15:12-14

Jesus did not say, 'You are all my sheep'. No. He said, "One of you is a devil".

He also called Peter Satan.

Does that mean Peter was Satan's son?

Judas was not always a betrayer, but was tempted and became a betrayer... He became a guide to those who arrested Jesus.

15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples(altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said, 16 “Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; 17 for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry.” Acts 1:15-17



JLB

 

[LovethroughDove]

Judas existed before Pentecost and the seal of God Eph 1:13-14. Straw men everywhere.

I have mentioned this numerous times and it is totally ignored! I guess people don't understand the purpose of Jesus sending the Holy Spirit!

 

[chessman]

You keep asking about Jesus loving Judas, as the Father loved Jesus.

I have to keep asking because you keep not answering this relevant question. Which makes your apologetic case for Judas loosing his salvation appear weak.

That is off topic and opinionated.

No, it's on topic. Your OP is based on your opinion and the Texts you listed that Judas was "saved for a while". No Text says he was ever saved and no Text says he lost his supposed salvation, so it is your opinion on both.

But Jesus did tell the 11 disciples (Judas had been told to leave the 12 at this point) that He loved them as the Father loved Jesus. And that they would remain in that love. He even told them (the 11) why, Because He spoke it to them (the 11, after Judas had left them).

John 15:11 (NKJV) “These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full."​

But you agreed that Jesus loved Judas in this way (as the Father loved Jesus). I'm simply trying to figure out when you think Jesus stopped loving Judas as the Father loves Jesus.

So you apparent answer is:

Here is when Judas lost his salvation.
...
Then he threw down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed, and went and hanged himself. Matthew 27:3-5

So in your opinion at the time Judas "hanged himself" is when he "lost his salvation".
I'm not sure why you are comfortable expressing your opinion on Judas losing his salvation based on when he hung himself but are seemingly not willing to express your opinion about Judas losing Jesus' love. Both are opinions.

But let's evaluate your reasons for choosing this moment for Judas losing "his salvation".

When Judas died, he died in his sins, unlike Peter who repented and returned to the Lord and was restored.
...
No one forced Judas to kill himself.

John 10:17-18 (NKJV) “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”​

No on forced Jesus to hang on the cross either. He knew from His Father, He would live again.

Then he threw down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed, and went and hanged himself. Matthew 27:3-5

I see you didn't bold it and color it red but Judas did return the pieces of silver. That's not opinion. Does that sound like a man who was unrepentant to you? Maybe he repented, return the silver and thought he would live again (knowing Jesus' teaching in John 10:17-18), so he took his own life. But Judas hanging himself IS off topic. That is unless you think that's when Jesus stopped loving Judas as the Father loved Jesus.

Do you think Jesus loved Judas in the way the Father loved Jesus when he returned the pieces of silver?

Do you think Jesus stopped loving Judas in the way the Father loved Jesus when he hung himself?

 

[chessman]

If none of these things qualify a person as a believer, especially the signs Jesus said would follow those who believe, then please tell us what does, qualify a person as a believer?

According to this site's Statement of Faith, genuine believers are "born again by the Holy Spirit of God, and are indwelt ..."

That's what qualifies as a genuine believer here on this forum.

Do you think it is somehow impossible, to believe for a while then fall away?

Obviously it's possible to believe certain things for a while then fall away from that belief. At one point I believed Jesus did not rise from the dead. But I fell away from that belief by the power of God and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

But the big question for this OP topic is;
Do you think it is possible for Judas (whom you said was loved by Jesus as the Father loves Jesus) to be separated from the love of Jesus Christ?

I believe that genuine believers are unable to be separated from the love of Jesus Christ. Do you believe this?

 

[FreeGrace]

You keep asking about Jesus loving Judas, as the Father loved Jesus.

And no answers have been presented.

Here is when Judas lost his salvation.

3 Then Judas, His betrayer, seeing that He had been condemned, was remorseful and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, 4 saying, “I have sinned by betraying innocent blood.”And they said, “What is that to us? You see to it!” 5 Then he threw down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed, and went and hanged himself. Matthew 27:3-5

So, one loses salvation WHEN one CONFESSES THEIR SINS??? Please explain how that occurs?

and again

18 (Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out. 19 And it became known to all those dwelling in Jerusalem; so that field is called in their own language, Akel Dama, that is, Field of Blood.) 20 “For it is written in the Book of Psalms:

‘Let his dwelling place be desolate, and let no one live in it’; and, ‘Let another take his office.’ Acts 1:18-20

Please explain how this passage indicates that Judas lost salvation. Since salvation isn't even mentioned.

When Judas died, he died in his sins, unlike Peter who repented and returned to the Lord and was restored.

But you've just given a passage from Matt 27:3-5 that shows Judas REPENTING of his sins by returning the money. Your view is contradicted. Please unravel.

No one forced Judas to kill himself.
JLB

How does this support your defense of when Judas supposedly lost salvation?? Please explain.

 

[FreeGrace]

I have to keep asking because you keep not answering this relevant question. Which makes your apologetic case for Judas loosing his salvation appear weak.

So in your opinion at the time Judas "hanged himself" is when he "lost his salvation".
I'm not sure why you are comfortable expressing your opinion on Judas losing his salvation based on when he hung himself but are seemingly not willing to express your opinion about Judas losing Jesus' love. Both are opinions.

But let's evaluate your reasons for choosing this moment for Judas losing "his salvation".

John 10:17-18 (NKJV) “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”​

No on forced Jesus to hang on the cross either. He knew from His Father, He would live again.

"JLB quoted:
3 Then Judas, His betrayer, seeing that He had been condemned, was remorseful and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, 4 saying, “I have sinned by betraying innocent blood.”And they said, “What is that to us? You see to it!” 5 Then he threw down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed, and went and hanged himself. Matthew 27:3-5"

I see you didn't bold it and color it red but Judas did return the pieces of silver. That's not opinion. Does that sound like a man who was unrepentant to you? Maybe he repented, return the silver and thought he would live again (knowing Jesus' teaching in John 10:17-18), so he took his own life. But Judas hanging himself IS off topic. That is unless you think that's when Jesus stopped loving Judas as the Father loved Jesus.

Excellent point!!

Do you think Jesus loved Judas in the way the Father loved Jesus when he returned the pieces of silver?

Do you think Jesus stopped loving Judas in the way the Father loved Jesus when he hung himself?

I am as eager for an answer to these questions as you are. It would surely advance the discussion.

 

[JLB]

Obviously it's possible to believe certain things for a while then fall away from that belief.

Not certain things, but the Gospel, the message of salvation.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. Luke 8:11-15


Believe and be saved.


JLB

 

[JLB]

But you've just given a passage from Matt 27:3-5 that shows Judas REPENTING of his sins by returning the money. Your view is contradicted. Please unravel.

[deleted personal comment.]

When Judas died, he died in his sins, unlike Peter who repented and returned to the Lord and was restored.

Repent means to turn to God. Judas never repented and turned back to Christ, to receive restoration and forgiveness.


If a person needs to turn to God, then by default they are turned away from God.


This is the message of the Gospel: Repent.


This is what Jesus called and sent His Apostles to do.

16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’

19 “Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance.

• Judas never turned back to Christ, to receive the forgiveness of sins, but committed suicide and died in his sins.

24 And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen 25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” Acts 1:24-25


Judas fell from being a disciple of Jesus Christ, and an Apostle of the Lord, who was empowered to preach the Gospel to the lost, and heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out devils.


Can you or anyone else show us where Jesus ever promoted any disciple to Apostle, who was an unbeliever, and allowed them to baptize others who believed.

22 After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He remained with them and baptized.
John 3:22

and again

Therefore, when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John 2 (though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples), John 4:1-2





JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"But you've just given a passage from Matt 27:3-5 that shows Judas REPENTING of his sins by returning the money. Your view is contradicted. Please unravel."
[deleted]

Repent means to turn to God. Judas never repented and turned back to Christ, to receive restoration and forgiveness.

Kinda late, given that Jesus was unavailable to him after His arrest and crucifixion.

Can you or anyone else show us where Jesus ever promoted any disciple to Apostle, who was an unbeliever, and allowed them to baptize others who believed.

Just the verses you've presented about Jesus sending out the 12 to do those things.

But the real and only question is where does the Bible actually SAY that Judas ever believed, or that he ever lose salvation? It's not been provided. Just verses with huge assumptions.

 

[WIP]

Kinda late, given that Jesus was unavailable to him after His arrest and crucifixion.

I'm confused. Are you suggesting Jesus is unavailable to us?

 

[smaller]

I have mentioned this numerous times and it is totally ignored! I guess people don't understand the purpose of Jesus sending the Holy Spirit!

It was addressed. There are many citings for workings of the Holy Ghost prior to Pentecost in the scriptures. The notions that nothing happened in man with the Holy Ghost prior is not a truthful sight whatsoever.

Matt. 1:18-20, Mark 12:36, 1 Peter 1:10-12, etc. The later 2 citings in particular show the operations of the Holy Ghost were ongoing from very early O.T. times.

 

[FreeGrace]

I'm confused. Are you suggesting Jesus is unavailable to us?

How would Judas have "come back" to Jesus, given His arrest and crucifixion? Everyone, including the 11 disciples, considered Him dead.

I was responding to the poster who defined repentance as "returning to Jesus". I'm just trying to understand how Judas could have done that. So I'm looking for his answer.