Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while.

[Randy]

Judas was the treasurer and was stealing money from the pot, as it were. He was following Christ in His ministry, yet not "following" Christ in belief and change of heart. I believe that Judas was in it for himself. It was a good gig, he got food and publicity and took cash when he needed it.....
He was not saved and had no desire to be so.

John 12:6King James Version (KJV)

6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.

Yes, and that suggests Judas didn't have a change of heart or a spirit of repentance which is a true sign of salvation like Zacchaeus who was a chief tax collector. A good tree doesn't bear bad fruit.

So all God had to do was select one who God knew would betray even the Son of God for 30 pieces of silver. (not a small sum) Judas's love of money was his undoing. He loved money and material things more than he loved God. Judas was already that way before he was chosen. God does not tempt people to do evil.

God knew how His Son would be treated as well. Some in the Sanhedrin were that way before Jesus came down to them first. (Israel) Their hearts were hardened by their own sin. Not God. The prophets were treated in like manner by the leadership of Israel.


Them=the chief priests and the elders of the people came to him. “By what authority are you doing these things?” they asked. “And who gave you this authority?”
Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you.32For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.

Jesus replied, “I will also ask you one question. If you answer me, I will tell you by what authority I am doing these things.25John’s baptism—where did it come from? Was it from heaven, or of human origin?”

Of course as we know they wouldn't answer Jesus's question and therefore true to His word Jesus didn't answer theirs either.

Randy

 

[JLB]

Jesus also said, 'You are not all clean", suggesting Judas did not understand (Jesus' word didn't make him clean) and he was not saved.

This event took place 3 1/2 years after Judas began to follow Jesus, at the time of Jesus betrayal.

Context:

Now before the Feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that His hour had come that He should depart from this world to the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end. John 13:1

10 Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.” 11 For He knew who would betray Him; therefore He said, “You are not all clean.” John 13:10-11

At the time of the foot-washing, which was on the eve of the Passover, we see that Judas was not declared as "clean", as Judas had decided to "become" a betrayer.


How does this mean Judas Iscariot "never" believed?


Judas became lost, because he at one time, "belonged" to Jesus, just as Jesus taught us about a sheep that became lost in the parable of the lost sheep, and the prodigal son.


4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7


The sheep, like Judas became lost.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Yes, and that suggests Judas didn't have a change of heart or a spirit of repentance which is a true sign of salvation like Zacchaeus who was a chief tax collector. A good tree doesn't bear bad fruit.

So all God had to do was select one who God knew would betray even the Son of God for 30 pieces of silver. (not a small sum) Judas's love of money was his undoing. He loved money and material things more than he loved God. Judas was already that way before he was chosen. God does not tempt people to do evil.

God knew how His Son would be treated as well. Some in the Sanhedrin were that way before Jesus came down to them first. (Israel) Their hearts were hardened by their own sin. Not God. The prophets were treated in like manner by the leadership of Israel.


Them=the chief priests and the elders of the people came to him. “By what authority are you doing these things?” they asked. “And who gave you this authority?”
Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you.32For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.

Jesus replied, “I will also ask you one question. If you answer me, I will tell you by what authority I am doing these things.25John’s baptism—where did it come from? Was it from heaven, or of human origin?”

Of course as we know they wouldn't answer Jesus's question and therefore true to His word Jesus didn't answer theirs either.

Randy

The context of John 12 is a week before the Passover, when Judas betrayed Jesus, which was some 3 1/2 years after Judas became a disciple of Jesus Christ.

12 Then, six days before the Passover, Jesus came to Bethany, where Lazarus was who had been dead, whom He had raised from the dead. 2 There they made Him a supper; and Martha served, but Lazarus was one of those who sat at the table with Him. 3 Then Mary took a pound of very costly oil of spikenard, anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped His feet with her hair. And the house was filled with the fragrance of the oil. 4 But one of His disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, who would betray Him, said, 5 “Why was this fragrant oil not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor?” 6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor, but because he was a thief, and had the money box; and he used to take what was put in it. John 12:1-6



JLB

 

[JLB]

Let's focus on the title of this thread; Judas I: saved for a while

The title suggests that Judas had been saved, but only for a while. After which, he was no longer saved.

The owner of this thread has repeatedly said in a number of threads:
"believe for a while, saved for a while"

The primary support for claiming Judas was saved is that he was included in the group of 12 when Jesus made them apostles (Luke 6:13) and sent them out to preach the gospel and heal the sick (Luke 9:1-2).

But, this begs the question: when did Judas cease to be saved? If he was saved "for a while", then a time came, after "a while" when he was no longer saved.

So, if this is true, what evidence is there for the change in that status? There should be evidence for several possibilities:
1. either he ceased to believe, or
2. his sin of betrayal, or
3. his failure to repent of his sin of betrayal.

That said, the Bible is clear that Jesus died for the sins of the world: "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:2

Notice that John wrote "sins", not "some sins". We can therefore conclude that He died for ALL sins. So #2 above is eliminated from that possibility for losing salvation.

That leaves #1 or #3. So the question to the owner of this thread: when specifically did Judas cease to be saved?

If he ceased to believe, where is the Scripture that shows that he did?

Or, if he failed to repent, then when, specifically, would he have lost his saved state after betraying Jesus and before he committed suicide?

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 17:12


Judas Iscariot was numbered among the others as one of "His sheep", but became lost, just as the parables teach us.

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

and again

It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’”
Luke 15:32

• What you would have me believe, is the sheep that belonged to the Shepherd, was never the Shepherd's to begin with.

• What you would have me believe, the prodigal son, was never the Father's son to begin with.

Judas Iscariot was one of "His sheep", one of "His disciples", one of "His apostles", and became lost: having become a guide to those who arrested Jesus.

16 “Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; 17 for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry.”
Acts 1:16-17



JLB

 

[MarkT]

Yes, and I believe the same exact thing, as I have explained.

How can someone become "lost", if they first are not the possession of the One from which they are lost?

How can someone become lost, if they first are not "found".

I have given the very teaching from Christ, using these same words, they way Jesus Christ used them, yet it has been ignored.


4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

and again

It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’”
Luke 15:32

• What you would have me believe, is the sheep that belonged to the Shepherd, was never the Shepherd's to begin with.

• What you would have me believe, the prodigal son, was never the Father's son to begin with.

Judas Iscariot was one of "His sheep", one of "His disciples", one of "His apostles", and became lost: having become a guide to those who arrested Jesus.

16 “Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; 17 for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry.”
Acts 1:16-17

Because God foresaw these things from the foundation of the world, does not change the facts, as He allowed these things to play out, because He gave man a freewill, to choose to serve Him, or to serve the devil.


And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” Joshua 24:15

... choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve,



JLB

You've got two parables which don't have anything to do with Judas. The fact that Jesus was sent to find his sheep, then you have Judas being found. In truth Judas was chosen, not found.

The apostles were chosen to find the sheep, and like Jesus said to John, 'tend my sheep'.
John 21:16
A second time he said to him, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.”

1 Peter 5:1-3Revised Standard Version (RSV)
Tending the Flock of God
5 So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ as well as a partaker in the glory that is to be revealed. 2 Tend the flock of God that is your charge, not by constraint but willingly, not for shameful gain but eagerly, 3 not as domineering over those in your charge but being examples to the flock.

Jesus chose them, the twelve, and one of them was a devil. Jesus kept them, didn't lose any except Judas, the son of perdition.

Judas was a follower and an apostle. We don't know a whole lot more about Judas except he was a devil. I'm not saying he personified the devil. I'm saying he was a devil; he was in every way like his father the Devil, the Serpent of old - in his heart and in his mind and in his soul. He accompanied the other apostles who were sent out to find the sheep. Can't say much more than that. Don't know if he personally performed any miracles. Don't know if he healed anyone. Don't know what he really believed. What we can say is he was unclean. Jesus said his words made the apostles clean, but not all were clean. John 13:11 This alone should tell us Judas was not a true believer. But we also have Jesus' word that Judas was a devil.

 

[WIP]

You're saying everyone who betrays Jesus is a devil. Judas betrayed Jesus, therefore Judas was a devil. False. Judas was a devil. Jesus chose Judas to fulfill the scripture.

Was Peter Satan? Satan and Peter are proper names. Of course Peter was not Satan. So we can assume Satan was nearby when Jesus rebuked Peter.

I have a question. Did Jesus rebuke Peter or Satan?

 

[JLB]

You've got two parables which don't have anything to do with Judas.

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

and again

It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’”
Luke 15:32



I have two parables that establish a kingdom principle, and pertain to all, Judas Iscariot included.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Jesus chose them, the twelve, and one of them was a devil. Jesus kept them, didn't lose any except Judas, the son of perdition.

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

and again

It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’”
Luke 15:32



Yes, I agree.

Judas was the only one of His sheep who became lost, as he chose to ignore the doctrine of Christ, concerning the prodigal son, and never came back to be restored, and died as a lost sheep.

It's just that simple.

The scriptures provide us the truth.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"But, this begs the question: when did Judas cease to be saved? If he was saved "for a while", then a time came, after "a while" when he was no longer saved.

So, if this is true, what evidence is there for the change in that status? There should be evidence for several possibilities:
1. either he ceased to believe, or
2. his sin of betrayal, or
3. his failure to repent of his sin of betrayal.

That said, the Bible is clear that Jesus died for the sins of the world: "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:2

Notice that John wrote "sins", not "some sins". We can therefore conclude that He died for ALL sins. So #2 above is eliminated from that possibility for losing salvation.

That leaves #1 or #3. So the question to the owner of this thread: when specifically did Judas cease to be saved?

If he ceased to believe, where is the Scripture that shows that he did?

Or, if he failed to repent, then when, specifically, would he have lost his saved state after betraying Jesus and before he committed suicide?"

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 17:12

This doesn't answer my question. When did Judas cease to believe? Or at what point did he lost his salvation by not repenting?

Those are the questions that the OP must answer.

Judas Iscariot was numbered among the others as one of "His sheep", but became lost, just as the parables teach us.

Where does the Bible teach that Judas was ever considered a sheep?

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

Nope. Not here.

and again

It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’”
Luke 15:32

A parable about fellowship, not relationship. The son was always the son, and the father was always the father. That never changed.

16 “Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; 17 for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry.”
Acts 1:16-17
JLB

Neither do these verses say anything about Judas ceasing to believe.

So it seems the OP's suggestion that Judas was only saved for a while must mean that because he never repented, he lost salvation.

Is that correct? Please advise.

 

[JLB]

I said this:
"But, this begs the question: when did Judas cease to be saved? If he was saved "for a while", then a time came, after "a while" when he was no longer saved.

So, if this is true, what evidence is there for the change in that status? There should be evidence for several possibilities:
1. either he ceased to believe, or
2. his sin of betrayal, or
3. his failure to repent of his sin of betrayal.

That said, the Bible is clear that Jesus died for the sins of the world: "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:2

Notice that John wrote "sins", not "some sins". We can therefore conclude that He died for ALL sins. So #2 above is eliminated from that possibility for losing salvation.

That leaves #1 or #3. So the question to the owner of this thread: when specifically did Judas cease to be saved?

If he ceased to believe, where is the Scripture that shows that he did?

Or, if he failed to repent, then when, specifically, would he have lost his saved state after betraying Jesus and before he committed suicide?"

This doesn't answer my question. When did Judas cease to believe? Or at what point did he lost his salvation by not repenting?

Those are the questions that the OP must answer.


Where does the Bible teach that Judas was ever considered a sheep?


Nope. Not here.


A parable about fellowship, not relationship. The son was always the son, and the father was always the father. That never changed.


Neither do these verses say anything about Judas ceasing to believe.

So it seems the OP's suggestion that Judas was only saved for a while must mean that because he never repented, he lost salvation.

Is that correct? Please advise.

You have to catch up with addressing the many points from the OP, and the things that I have posted with the scripture points I have made.

Let's start here with the latest:

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

and again

It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’”
Luke 15:32


The principle that is being taught is both the sheep and the prodigal son, belonged to whom they became lost from.


Did Judas Iscariot die as being lost, or found?

Lost = No longer belonging to Him.
Found = Belonging to Him.

1.] Lost
2.] Found



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

You have to catch up with addressing the many points from the OP, and the things that I have posted with the scripture points I have made.

No, there is nothing to "catch up" to. The point is that the OP begs my question. I'm hoping there will be an answer.

Let's start here with the latest:

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

and again

It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’”
Luke 15:32

The principle that is being taught is both the sheep and the prodigal son, belonged to whom they became lost from.

Neither of these verses even addresses my question, much less answers it.

Did Judas Iscariot die as being lost, or found?

Please answer my question. Only then will I be able to answer more of yours.

Lost = No longer belonging to Him.
Found = Belonging to Him.

1.] Lost
2.] Found
JLB

So, once again, when, exactly, did Judas lose the salvation that the OP supposes?

Or, using your own wording, when specifically did Judas become lost again? Maybe that's more clear of a question.

Thanks.

 

[atpollard]

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

and again

It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’”
Luke 15:32

I have two parables that establish a kingdom principle, and pertain to all, Judas Iscariot included.

JLB

Unless Judas was never one of Jesus' sheep, but was chosen as a 'wolf in sheep clothing' from the start to fulfill scripture.

John 10:26 "but you do not believe because you are not my sheep." [NIV]

Matthew 7:15-20
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. [NIV]

So what sort of fruit did Judas produce that we may know him by? Good or Bad?

 

[atpollard]

Or, if he failed to repent, then when, specifically, would he have lost his saved state after betraying Jesus and before he committed suicide?

Would not Satan entering him at the Last Supper indicate an 'unsaved state' at that point?
James 4:7 seems to be a command to all 'believers' but did not seem to be an option available to Judas in Luke 22:3.

James 4:7 "Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." [NIV]

Luke 22:3 "Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve." [NIV]

 

[LovethroughDove]

Here it is straight from Jesus, about "unbelieving" after having believed the Gospel.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. Luke 8:11-15


Believe = Saved
Believe for a while = Saved for a while


If a person believes, then later they return to unbelieving, having believed for a while, are they still a believer?



JLB

First let me start off with saying where I stand in agreement with your side of things. By your posts you say someone who is a believer will walk the path of righteousness. Yes, I agree 100%. Where we disconnect is definition of believer. You and Freegrace are on the same page with this. You both think all believers are lumped into the same group. This leaves you thinking that believers can fall away and it leaves Freegrace thinking all believers are saved forever no matter what. I think there are people in scripture who lump themselves into the believer category, but really aren't (yet?) They may be on the path. The people with good soil are the born again category and will always have the truth.

The scripture you posted above is talking about the path of belief and where it will go because of a person's heart. You have believe for a while highlighted and you are convinced that they had saving belief, but they didn't.........their hearts were not ready to receive the Truth! They wanted to believe and they did believe something. If you have been given the Truth, it will stay with you forever.
John 14:16-17 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever - the Spirit of truth

Now, as it pertains to Judas. This is a straw man! Jesus had not died for our sins yet.

Romans 5:9-11 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Don't take this personal, but it is really irritating me that "saved" is being linked to Judas before the act of Christ dying for our sins had happened.

 

[MarkT]

This event took place 3 1/2 years after Judas began to follow Jesus, at the time of Jesus betrayal.

Context:

Now before the Feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that His hour had come that He should depart from this world to the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end. John 13:1

10 Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.” 11 For He knew who would betray Him; therefore He said, “You are not all clean.” John 13:10-11

At the time of the foot-washing, which was on the eve of the Passover, we see that Judas was not declared as "clean", as Judas had decided to "become" a betrayer.


How does this mean Judas Iscariot "never" believed?


Judas became lost, because he at one time, "belonged" to Jesus, just as Jesus taught us about a sheep that became lost in the parable of the lost sheep, and the prodigal son.


4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7


The sheep, like Judas became lost.



JLB

Jesus said, 'And you are clean, but not all of you' John 13:10 Jesus explains how we are made clean. John 15:3 "You are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you." This says they believed his word, and his word made them clean. But Judas was declared unclean, meaning he was not washed by the word, which means he did not believe.

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7


The sheep, like Judas became lost.

Here you've got things backwards. Luke 15:4-7 is about finding the sheep that was lost. Not Judas. And how did you make Judas the prodigal son?

 

[MarkT]

John 6:64
But there are some of you that do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that would betray him.

Jesus always knows who they are who do not believe. Here John associates them with Judas who would betray Jesus, suggesting Judas did not believe. Besides that, if Judas actually believed Jesus was the Son of God, would Judas have betrayed him? I don't think so. And Judas was a devil, and Jesus chose him to be his betrayer from the first.

 

[MarkT]

Yes, and I believe the same exact thing, as I have explained.

How can someone become "lost", if they first are not the possession of the One from which they are lost?

How can someone become lost, if they first are not "found".

The sheep are lost in this world, and the Shepherd finds them. If Judas was never found, then he would remain lost.

 

[MarkT]

I have a question. Did Jesus rebuke Peter or Satan?

Peter was rebuked for his unbelief. Satan was commanded to leave Peter alone.

 

[JLB]

No, there is nothing to "catch up" to. The point is that the OP begs my question. I'm hoping there will be an answer.


Neither of these verses even addresses my question, much less answers it.


Please answer my question. Only then will I be able to answer more of yours.


So, once again, when, exactly, did Judas lose the salvation that the OP supposes?

Or, using your own wording, when specifically did Judas become lost again? Maybe that's more clear of a question.

Thanks.

I have answered all your questions, if you have some points with scripture to address what I have written then do so, if not then that's ok too.


4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

and again

It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’”
Luke 15:32


The principle that is being taught is both the sheep and the prodigal son, belonged to whom they became lost from.


Did Judas Iscariot die as being lost, or found?

Lost = No longer belonging to Him.
Found = Belonging to Him.

1.] Lost
2.] Found



JLB

 

[JLB]

The sheep are lost in this world, and the Shepherd finds them. If Judas was never found, then he would remain lost.

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

It was the man's sheep, that he had or possessed, in this parable, that became lost.

Later he found the sheep.


It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’”
Luke 15:32


Likewise the son left his father and became lost, but later returned to his father.


The sheep belonged to the shepherd, and became lost.
The son left his Father and became lost.


The principle that is being taught is both the sheep and the prodigal son, belonged to whom they became lost from.


Judas was "His disciple", and one of "His sheep", then later Judas was lost, as he fell by transgression.


Judas fell away, like the example Jesus gave us... But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

and Paul

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14



JLB