Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while.

[JLB]

John 6:64
But there are some of you that do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that would betray him.

Jesus always knows who they are who do not believe. Here John associates them with Judas who would betray Jesus, suggesting Judas did not believe. Besides that, if Judas actually believed Jesus was the Son of God, would Judas have betrayed him? I don't think so. And Judas was a devil, and Jesus chose him to be his betrayer from the first.

64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:64-69

Here is the key phrase, that defines those of His disciples who no longer believed, as defined by...who they were who did not believe,

From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?


Judas was in the group, who the scripture defines this way - “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”


THEY who no longer believed went away, no longer following Him as disciples:

THEY who continued to believe, continued to follow Jesus as disciples.




JLB

 

[JLB]

Here you've got things backwards. Luke 15:4-7 is about finding the sheep that was lost. Not Judas. And how did you make Judas the prodigal son?

Both the parable of the lost sheep, and the parable of the prodigal son, are about belonging to God, then becoming lost.


The prodigal son, came back and was forgiven and restored, which is defined as being "found", after he became "lost".

Did Judas, come back to Jesus to be forgiven and restored?

No, he died in a lost state, having hanged himself.



16 “Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; 17 for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry.” Acts 1:16

Judas, being a believer, was "numbered among" the other believers, and was in the leadership among the Apostles.

When he fell by transgression, they elected another believer, who had been faithful as a disciple from the beginning.

21 “Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”
23 And they proposed two: Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. 24 And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen 25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” 26 And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles. Acts 1:21-26




JLB

 

[JLB]

Don't take this personal, but it is really irritating me that "saved" is being linked to Judas before the act of Christ dying for our sins had happened.

Do you believe that Judas ever "believed", having followed Jesus for 3 1/2 years, and was sent out as an apostle to preach the Gospel to lost, and heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out devils?

Do you believe it is impossible for someone to believe for a while and later, fall away, as Judas did.

...to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” 26 And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles. Acts 1:25-26


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

John 6:64
But there are some of you that do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that would betray him.

Jesus always knows who they are who do not believe. Here John associates them with Judas who would betray Jesus, suggesting Judas did not believe. Besides that, if Judas actually believed Jesus was the Son of God, would Judas have betrayed him? I don't think so. And Judas was a devil, and Jesus chose him to be his betrayer from the first.

This single verse refutes the OP entirely. The fact that John included the statement about Judas, though not naming him directly, shows that Judas never believed. Along with all the others who followed (disciples) Him, who didn't believe in Him.

 

[FreeGrace]

I have answered all your questions, if you have some points with scripture to address what I have written then do so, if not then that's ok too.

No, not my most recent question. I am interested in your opinion as to when you believe that Judas returned to an unsaved state.

Has this been thought through, or not? If so, there should easily be an answer. If not, I understand why there won't be an answer.

 

[FreeGrace]

64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:64-69

Here is the key phrase, that defines those of His disciples who no longer believed, as defined by...who they were who did not believe,

From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?

Judas was in the group, who the scripture defines this way - “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

THEY who no longer believed went away, no longer following Him as disciples:

THEY who continued to believe, continued to follow Jesus as disciples.
JLB

If your view is that Judas was saved at this point, when other followers (disciples) left Him, then WHEN exactly did Judas return to an unsaved state? Since that is implicit in the OP and title.

 

[FreeGrace]

Both the parable of the lost sheep, and the parable of the prodigal son, are about belonging to God, then becoming lost.

At NO TIME did the lost sheep NOT belong to God. They were lost, not stolen and belonged to another. The same is true for the prodigal. He CONTINUED to be the son thoughout the parable.

The prodigal son, came back and was forgiven and restored, which is defined as being "found", after he became "lost".

Actually, the Bible says "dead". But never mind; whether "dead" or "lost", the point is loss of fellowship with the Father. Not a separation of relationship. The son continued to be the son, and the father continued to be the father.

Did Judas, come back to Jesus to be forgiven and restored?

No, he died in a lost state, having hanged himself.

The reason he died in a lost state is because he never believed in the first place.

So, since your view is that he was saved for a while, WHEN exactly did that change for Judas?

 

[JLB]

John 10:26 "but you do not believe because you are not my sheep." [NIV]

This was not spoken to Judas Iscariot.


22 Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter. 23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon’s porch. 24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
John 10:22-27


Judas Iscariot was one of His disciples, when this was spoken by the Lord.

Judas Iscariot heard His voice, and followed the Lord for 3 1/2 years, then fell away.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Judas Iscariot heard His voice, and followed the Lord for 3 1/2 years, then fell away.
JLB

The question that I have asked, related to the phrase in the title of this thread, "saved for a while", is WHEN specifically did Judas "fall away", which is apparently when he lost his saved state, according to your view.

I'm sure the idea of his loss of salvation has been thought through, so I hope for an answer. Surely Scripture would give an indication of WHEN specifically he "fell away". Thus, losing salvation, per your theology.

 

[JLB]

The question that I have asked, related to the phrase in the title of this thread, "saved for a while", is WHEN specifically did Judas "fall away", which is apparently when he lost his saved state, according to your view.

When he chose to act on the desire to betray Jesus for money, and conspired with those who plotted to murder the Lord.

Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread drew near, which is called Passover. 2 And the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might kill Him, for they feared the people. 3 Then Satan entered Judas, surnamed Iscariot, who was numbered among the twelve. 4 So he went his way and conferred with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray Him to them. 5 And they were glad, and agreed to give him money. 6 So he promised and sought opportunity to betray Him to them in the absence of the multitude. Luke 22:1-6


I have posted this answer previously, and won't address this question again.


JLB

 

[JLB]

At NO TIME did the lost sheep NOT belong to God.

Lost = A sinner in need of repentance.


This is what the language of scripture defines for us.

6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:6-7

• Lost; Sinner who is dead spiritually to God, in sins and trespasses.

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, Ephesians 2:1


Lost means the sheep was no longer in the possession of the shepherd.

and again

‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the piece which I lost!’ 10 Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

• Lost means the coin was not in the possession of the woman.

again


31 “And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that I have is yours. 32 It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’”

Sinner = Dead spiritually to God.



JLB

 

[JLB]

The reason he died in a lost state is because he never believed in the first place.

Go ahead and show me a scripture whereby Jesus, or Paul or any of the Apostles, promoted an unbeliever to apostle, after having followed Him and was taught by Him, and baptized people for Him for 3 1/2 years, and who healed the sick, raised the dead and cast out devils, being empowered by Jesus Christ personally while He walked this earth.


JLB

 

[MarkT]

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

It was the man's sheep, that he had or possessed, in this parable, that became lost.

Later he found the sheep.


It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’”
Luke 15:32


Likewise the son left his father and became lost, but later returned to his father.


The sheep belonged to the shepherd, and became lost.
The son left his Father and became lost.


The principle that is being taught is both the sheep and the prodigal son, belonged to whom they became lost from.


Judas was "His disciple", and one of "His sheep", then later Judas was lost, as he fell by transgression.

You say he was lost, then found, then lost again? If you are convinced Judas was a believer who made a bad choice, what can I say?

Jesus differentiated Judas saying, 'one of you is a devil', and no matter how you interpret 'devil', Jesus said he chose Judas, and Judas was a devil. And no matter how you interpret 'devil', devil does not mean sheep. The Shepherd's sheep do not become devils. That never happens. And devils never become sheep.

 

[FreeGrace]

When he chose to act on the desire to betray Jesus for money, and conspired with those who plotted to murder the Lord.

I see. So merely having the desire to betray the Lord isn't enough to lose salvation, but acting on the desire??

Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread drew near, which is called Passover. 2 And the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might kill Him, for they feared the people. 3 Then Satan entered Judas, surnamed Iscariot, who was numbered among the twelve. 4 So he went his way and conferred with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray Him to them. 5 And they were glad, and agreed to give him money. 6 So he promised and sought opportunity to betray Him to them in the absence of the multitude. Luke 22:1-6

These verses give us the information of when Judas acted on his desire. I wonder how long he had the desire to betray Jesus.

However, Luke 22:1-6 occurred some time before the Last Supper. And note what John recorded:
25 Leaning back against Jesus, he asked him, “Lord, who is it?”
26 Jesus answered, “It is the one to whom I will give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish.”Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot.
27 As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him. So Jesus told him, “What you are about to do, do quickly.”
28 But no one at the meal understood why Jesus said this to him.
29 Since Judas had charge of the money, some thought Jesus was telling him to buy what was needed for the festival, or to give something to the poor.
30 As soon as Judas had taken the bread, he went out. And it was night. John 13

So, it appears that Satan actually entered into Judas at least twice. That would indicate that Satan didn't permanently dwell in him when he first entered Judas.

However, thanks for your view that he lost salvation when he acted upon his desires. Is that how everyone loses salvation, or are there various ways to lose it? Just wondering.

I have posted this answer previously, and won't address this question again.

No need to, as the answer has finally been given.

However, Jesus' prayer for His disciples in John 14, prayed AFTER Judas left the supper, indicates that those Jesus prayed for had been given to Jesus by the Father (v.6 - “I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word."). Judas didn't obey God's word.

Further, Jesus tells His Father that He protected them (not Judas) and kept them safe. He does note that Judas was lost, but that doesn't mean that the Father gave him to Jesus. Judas fulfilled Scripture. Nothing more. It's clear from both Jesus' prayer for His disciples and His promise to those He gives eternal life that they will never perish (10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.) That's how He keeps them safe. By giving them eternal life.

 

[chessman]

FreeGrace asked:
WHEN specifically did Judas "fall away", which is apparently when he lost his saved state, according to your view.

You answered:

When he chose to act on the desire to betray Jesus for money, and conspired with those who plotted to murder the Lord.
... 3 Then Satan entered Judas, surnamed Iscariot, who was numbered among the twelve. ... Luke 22:1-6

Yet you answered my same question with:

Here is when Judas lost his salvation.

...
5 Then he threw down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed, and went and hanged himself. Matthew 27:3-5

So Judas was saved for a while, lost his salvation "When he chose to act on the desire to betray Jesus for money", was saved again, then lost his salvation again when he "went and hanged himself". Interesting view.

How about each time he stole from the money bag while carrying it for the disciples; did he lose his salvation each time then too?

 

[FreeGrace]

Sinner = Dead spiritually to God.
JLB

Paul said he was a sinner in the present tense in 1 Tim 1:15 - Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am (present tense) the worst.

He didn't say "was the worst".

 

[Jim Parker]

At NO TIME did the lost sheep NOT belong to God.

That is irrelevant. All of creation belongs to God.
The word "lost" with reference to relationship with God refers to one who has separated himself from God, in Whom alone is life, and is, because of his separation, spiritually dead.
Jhn 1:4 (RSV) In him was life, and the life was the light of men
Jhn 5:26 (RSV) For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself,1Jo 5:12 (RSV) He who has the Son has life; he who has not the Son of God has not life.

The same is true for the prodigal. He CONTINUED to be the son thoughout the parable.

It also says that he was dead and was restored to life.(Luk 15:32)

Actually, the Bible says "dead". But never mind; whether "dead" or "lost", the point is loss of fellowship with the Father. Not a separation of relationship.

Ah! Antics with semantics! How fun!
But it is necessary to play such silly games with words in order to give the appearance of legitimacy to popular Calvinism
If you have no fellowship with your spouse it is called "divorce" or "separation." The relationship has ended.
If you have no fellowship with God then you have no relationship with God. That relationship is also ended.
If you are separated from God, you have no life.

 

[Mike]

I'm going to start cracking down more on posts that refute someone's claims of scripture without providing scripture to support their position. I believe it's in keeping with the spirit of this rule to discuss scripture in the quoted text given by someone without providing it on your own.

This isn't to suggest members throw in a verse just to say they used scripture. The rule requires that you don't claim that someone's theology is off without showing why with scripture. On this page alone there are 5 or 6 responses where members were said to be wrong purely with opinion. It's been happening too frequently. Please consider this when replying in the A&T.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"At NO TIME did the lost sheep NOT belong to God."

That is irrelevant. All of creation belongs to God.

Yes, my point. I was responding to another poster who seemed to think lost sheep belonged to someone else.

The word "lost" with reference to relationship with God refers to one who has separated himself from God, in Whom alone is life, and is, because of his separation, spiritually dead.

Yes, of course.

I said this:
"Actually, the Bible says "dead". But never mind; whether "dead" or "lost", the point is loss of fellowship with the Father. Not a separation of relationship."

Ah! Antics with semantics! How fun!
But it is necessary to play such silly games with words in order to give the appearance of legitimacy to popular Calvinism

Good heavens!! How do my words 'give the appearance of legitimacy to popular Calvinism???

If you have no fellowship with your spouse it is called "divorce" or "separation." The relationship has ended.

Way too severe. The prodigal son is proof that fellowship died, but the relationship continued. That's why the son continued to be the son, even though he was willing to be demoted to "servant", and the father continued to be the father.

In the relationship between parent (father) and child (son), that relationship cannot be severed. What can be severed is fellowship, which is my point.

If you have no fellowship with God then you have no relationship with God. That relationship is also ended.

Equating fellowship with relationship completely misses the point of the prodigal.

 

[GodsGrace]

At NO TIME did the lost sheep NOT belong to God. They were lost, not stolen and belonged to another. The same is true for the prodigal. He CONTINUED to be the son thoughout the parable.


Actually, the Bible says "dead". But never mind; whether "dead" or "lost", the point is loss of fellowship with the Father. Not a separation of relationship. The son continued to be the son, and the father continued to be the father.


The reason he died in a lost state is because he never believed in the first place.

So, since your view is that he was saved for a while, WHEN exactly did that change for Judas?

FreeGrace,
I'm reading along and sometimes the reasoning behind a verse seems to be out of place.
Mathew 18:12 speaks of a lost sheep. Jesus leaves the 99 to look for it.

The shepherd left the 99 because they were SAFE.
He went to look for the lost sheep because if he didn't the LOST sheep would have DIED, from cold, from hunger, from a wolf. He probably would never have found his way back to the flock.

In John 10:13-14 Jesus tells of a hireling that flees because he is not CONCERNED for the sheep. But Jesus is concerned for them, in verse 14.

The concern is because LOST sheep, end up dead.

As to the Prodigal Son, we are all children of God in the sense that God created every 'person living. We are not all Sons of God.
To be a Son of God one must believe and trust in Him. If there is a good fellowship, the son of the father will receive an inheritance when the father dies.

If there is NO fellowship, and an improper relationship, the son will most probably not receive an inheritance when the father dies.

The inheritance is equal to salvation.
Salvation is our inheritance.
Proverbs 20:21

Acts 20:32
Paul tells the believers at Ephesus that he commends them to God, Who is able to give the inheritance to them that are SANCTIFIED.

Is an unbeliever (at any point in time) sanctified?
Sanctified - to be made Holy.
Holy - to be set apart for THE WORK OF GOD.

An unbeliever (at any point in time) does NOT do the work of God.

Wondering