Really? So post #817 wasn't read? It included 11 verses from the Bible. How is that opinion?
Anyhoo, your claim is empty.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while.
- Thread starter JLB
- Start date
Anyhoo, your claim is empty.
4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:4-7
Do you have a confident expectation, that you will inherit eternal life, through faith in Jesus Christ?
JLB
4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:4-7
Do you have a confident expectation, that you will inherit eternal life, through faith in Jesus Christ?
JLB
You must have missed my post # 789.
Here it is again:
- Those who believe, and are justified, have the hope of eternal life.
- Eternal life is received at the end of a fruitful life of holiness.
- Eternal life is given to those who by patient continuance in doing good.
God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:7 eternal life to thosewho by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8
Those who live immoral, disobedient lives can expect to receive the indignation and wrath of God, like the biblical example of Judas Iscariot, who believed for a while, was a disciple of Jesus Christ, was sent out as an apostle of Jesus Christ, in which he was empowered to heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out devils, then fell by transgression.
JLB
Here is what the grace of God teaches us: denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age.
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works. Titus 2:11-14
Those who stray from the truth, have become as sinners in need of repentance, or be lost, like Judas Iscariot.
19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20
JLB
Jesus used 'serpent' and 'vipers' to indicate kinship with the devil. But if Judas was not really a devil, what makes you think Satan was really the devil? You could say 'devil' is merely a figure of speech.
I agree Judas served the devil; that's because the devil was his father.
Jesus said one of the twelve would betray him, and he said he was a devil, not the devil, but a devil. So that indicates some kind of kinship.
Jesus also said, 'You are not all clean", suggesting Judas did not understand (Jesus' word didn't make him clean) and he was not saved.
So, Jesus said, "one of you is a devil, not the devil. So he was not saying Judas was Satan. Also the word 'is' denotes a state of being.
You would not think I was speaking metaphorically if I said, 'you are a devil'. Just look at the way the Jews reacted when Jesus said, 'you are of your father, the devil' to them.
John 8:44
You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires.
They took up stones to throw at him. I'd say they took him literally. Why would his disciples not take him literally?
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GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
I hate to be discourteous and not reply, but I"m afraid I'm really slow and do not understand your point.
I said this:
"Thank you for agreeing with my position. Jesus taught that we HAVE obtained eternal life WHEN we believe, in John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me HAS eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
I've never seen any explanation about your views in light of what Jesus taught in John 5:24. They are in conflict. Please advise."
Since your opinions are in conflict with what Jesus taught in John 5:24, could you please advise as to why?
"Thank you for agreeing with my position. Jesus taught that we HAVE obtained eternal life WHEN we believe, in John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me HAS eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
I've never seen any explanation about your views in light of what Jesus taught in John 5:24. They are in conflict. Please advise."
No. I haven't missed a thing.
But it does appear that you've continued to miss John 5:24.
Since your opinions are in conflict with what Jesus taught in John 5:24, could you please advise as to why?
Yes you could based on context, and the original language word meaning.
I addressed this early on.
Do you believe Jesus used a fugue of speech when He spoke to Peter, or do you believe Peter was literally Satan in the flesh?
22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”
23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Matthew 16:22-23
JLB
You're the one who has missed the context, by trying to isolate one scripture, and build a man made doctrine around it.
Similar to your claim from Romans 11:29.
Here are three scriptures the bring a fullness of God's counsel to the table.
- Those who believe, and are justified, have the hope of eternal life.
- Eternal life is received at the end of a fruitful life of holiness.
- Eternal life is given to those who by patient continuance in doing good.
Those who live immoral, disobedient lives can expect to receive the indignation and wrath of God, like the biblical example of Judas Iscariot, who believed for a while, was a disciple of Jesus Christ, was sent out as an apostle of Jesus Christ, in which he was empowered to heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out devils, then fell by transgression.
Now, back to John 5:24
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
John 5:25
This promise is to those who believe.
Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, like Judas Iscariot, are longer believers,
The promise is to those who believe, and as we have seen from the example of Judas Iscariot, those who believe for a while, then turn away from Christ, don't end up receiving eternal life.
Unless you can show some scriptures that prove Judas Iscariot, did end up inheriting eternal life in the end, then you and your theory, have been refuted.
JLB
You're saying everyone who betrays Jesus is a devil. Judas betrayed Jesus, therefore Judas was a devil. False. Judas was a devil. Jesus chose Judas to fulfill the scripture.
Was Peter Satan? Satan and Peter are proper names. Of course Peter was not Satan. So we can assume Satan was nearby when Jesus rebuked Peter.
I already told you what I believe. John 17:12
"While I was with them, I kept them in thy name, which thou hast given me; I have guarded them, and none of them is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled".
Did Satan somehow snatch Judas out of the Father's hand? No. According to John 10:29, no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. John 10:29
My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
So what happened to Judas? He made a choice? Or did God give him to Jesus so he would fulfill the scripture, like Jesus said? Jesus couldn't save Judas? How come? Maybe it's because Judas was never meant to be saved. Maybe it's because Judas was a devil. Maybe it's because Judas was already condemned.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
MarkT
You are saying that I've made statements that are out of character for me.
Please supply the post number to which you are referring.
Thank you
Wondering
Post 781
§Everyone who betrays Jesus is a "devil" because he is on the side of satan and not on the side of God.
Jesus also said we should pluck our eyes out and cut off limbs.
I don't see anyone insisting that He meant THAT literally...
Judas was not a devil. He was in the sense that he served the devil.
Just as satan spoke through Peter. Get thee behind me satan.
Was Peter satan??
It follows from Jesus' teaching Mt. 13:36-42 RSV and from other teachings. Mt. 15:12-14 RSV
"And his disciples came to him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.” 37 He answered, “He who sows the good seed is the Son of man; 38 the field is the world, and the good seed means the sons of the kingdom; the weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels. 40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age. 41 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, 42 and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth. Mt. 13:36-42 RSV
This teaching is about the sons of the evil one. The devil is the enemy who sowed them. It doesn't mention Judas by name, however we know Judas was a devil (if we believe Jesus). We also know the Pharisees and the Jews who wanted to stone Jesus were not planted by the Father. Mt. 15:12-14 RSV
"Then the disciples came and said to him, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?” 13 He answered, “Every plant which my heavenly Father has not planted will be rooted up. 14 Let them alone; they are blind guides. And if a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit.” Mt. 15:12-14 RSV
The difficulty here is to understand the physical thing and the spiritual thing. God made the physical thing, the man. Satan planted the spiritual thing, the person. The question, therefore, should not be whether men can be devils. The question should be related to the person. Who was Judas? Who were they (the Jews) who wanted to stone Jesus?
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Yes, and I believe the same exact thing, as I have explained.
How can someone become "lost", if they first are not the possession of the One from which they are lost?
How can someone become lost, if they first are not "found".
I have given the very teaching from Christ, using these same words, they way Jesus Christ used them, yet it has been ignored.
4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7
and again
It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’”
Luke 15:32
- What you would have me believe, is the sheep that belonged to the Shepherd, was never the Shepherd's to begin with.
- What you would have me believe, the prodigal son, was never the Father's son to begin with.
Judas Iscariot was one of "His sheep", one of "His disciples", one of "His apostles", and became lost: having become a guide to those who arrested Jesus.
16 “Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; 17 for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry.”
Acts 1:16-17
Because God foresaw these things from the foundation of the world, does not change the facts, as He allowed these things to play out, because He gave man a freewill, to choose to serve Him, or to serve the devil.
And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” Joshua 24:15
... choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve,
JLB
Let's focus on the title of this thread; Judas I: saved for a while
The title suggests that Judas had been saved, but only for a while. After which, he was no longer saved.
The owner of this thread has repeatedly said in a number of threads:
"believe for a while, saved for a while"
The primary support for claiming Judas was saved is that he was included in the group of 12 when Jesus made them apostles (Luke 6:13) and sent them out to preach the gospel and heal the sick (Luke 9:1-2).
But, this begs the question: when did Judas cease to be saved? If he was saved "for a while", then a time came, after "a while" when he was no longer saved.
So, if this is true, what evidence is there for the change in that status? There should be evidence for several possibilities:
1. either he ceased to believe, or
2. his sin of betrayal, or
3. his failure to repent of his sin of betrayal.
That said, the Bible is clear that Jesus died for the sins of the world: "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:2
Notice that John wrote "sins", not "some sins". We can therefore conclude that He died for ALL sins. So #2 above is eliminated from that possibility for losing salvation.
That leaves #1 or #3. So the question to the owner of this thread: when specifically did Judas cease to be saved?
If he ceased to believe, where is the Scripture that shows that he did?
Or, if he failed to repent, then when, specifically, would he have lost his saved state after betraying Jesus and before he committed suicide?
The title suggests that Judas had been saved, but only for a while. After which, he was no longer saved.
The owner of this thread has repeatedly said in a number of threads:
"believe for a while, saved for a while"
The primary support for claiming Judas was saved is that he was included in the group of 12 when Jesus made them apostles (Luke 6:13) and sent them out to preach the gospel and heal the sick (Luke 9:1-2).
But, this begs the question: when did Judas cease to be saved? If he was saved "for a while", then a time came, after "a while" when he was no longer saved.
So, if this is true, what evidence is there for the change in that status? There should be evidence for several possibilities:
1. either he ceased to believe, or
2. his sin of betrayal, or
3. his failure to repent of his sin of betrayal.
That said, the Bible is clear that Jesus died for the sins of the world: "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:2
Notice that John wrote "sins", not "some sins". We can therefore conclude that He died for ALL sins. So #2 above is eliminated from that possibility for losing salvation.
That leaves #1 or #3. So the question to the owner of this thread: when specifically did Judas cease to be saved?
If he ceased to believe, where is the Scripture that shows that he did?
Or, if he failed to repent, then when, specifically, would he have lost his saved state after betraying Jesus and before he committed suicide?