That's all nice, but since it seems your understanding is that they taught salvation requires works, etc, they still failed to understand what Jesus taught and the authorized writers of Scripture wrote.
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while.
- Thread starter JLB
- Start date
Jesus is the very epitome of grace.
Luke 2:40 - And the child grew and became strong; he was filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was on him.
John 1:14 - The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 1:16 - Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given.
John 1:17 - For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ
Acts 4:33 - With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all
Acts 6:8 - Now Stephen, a man full of God’s grace and power, performed great wonders and signs among the people.
Acts 11:23 - When he arrived and saw what the grace of God had done, he was glad and encouraged them all to remain true to the Lord with all their hearts.
Acts 13:43 - When the congregation was dismissed, many of the Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who talked with them and urged them to continue in the grace of God.
Acts 14:26 - From Attalia they sailed back to Antioch, where they had been committed to the grace of God for the work they had now completed.
Acts 15:11 - No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”
Acts 15:40 - but Paul chose Silas and left, commended by the believers to the grace of the Lord.
So, I respectfully disagree with your assessment.
He sure did. John 3:15,16, 3:36, 5:24, 6:40,47, 11:25-26.
The beatitudes are not about how to get to heaven. That would mean one is saved by their behavior, which is then NOT by grace.
Again, I will have to respectfully disagree with your opinion.
smaller
Member
Classic works for salvation mentality.
None of us "make" Christ in us any more Perfect than His Spirit in us already is. There may be and is varying manifestations, internally and externally, but to say that Christ in us is insufficient, inactive, not able, really isn't in the cards.
If we only see ourselves, we have merely been temporarily blinded to the reality of Christ in us, working.
Colossians 1:27
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Technically speaking, we cease to exist, in faith.
Colossians 3:3
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Whatever "change" is brought about is again, technically, out of our hands. There is no "individual" involved with faith in Christ. There is the person, there is the Spirit of Christ in them.
Phil. 3:
21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
The notions that we can manipulate God in Christ, to force His Hand, probably get's us into more trouble than it's worth.
The Seed Will Run His Courses, to the end game He Will Extract. It's sometimes difficult to submit to the direction, ourselves:
1 Corinthians 15:24
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
The natural mind will find this a frightening sight. But it is the direction we'll head, til it's completed by Him.
Life and Change are in His Hands. Quite Secure.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
What if you believe for some time and then you stop believing?
Are you still saved since you no longer qualify, by your very words above.
..
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Maybe YOU misunderstood.
I tend to trust those closest to Jesus more than your opinion.
The Didache was written in about 90 ad.
Go read it, I can't post it for you.
Come back and tell us all what it said about grace.
Wondering
So there would be two devils. Not two Satans, but Satan and his son, Judas. Satan is the Devil. See Job 1:6-2:8 Satan is the enemy who sows his seed. The weeds are the sons of the evil one. Mt. 13:38-40 RSV "and the enemy who sowed them is the devil" Mt. 13:39 "The weeds are the sons of the evil one" ie. devils
So Satan entered his son. So what? The son obeys his father, and he does his father's will. It's really a question of fatherhood. Judas was of his father, the devil. Peter was of his Father, God.
According to your logic, Judas can not be a devil because devils are invisible. Do you have some a priori knowledge that devils are invisible? I mean, at that time, in Jerusalem, the devil's children were running the whole show - the Pharisees and the scribes, the Jews who wanted to stone Jesus. John 8: 44 "You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires."
Just as they are running the whole show today. Beware of the leaven of the scholars and the historians.
And the devil's children are not and never will be saved.
Last edited:
Faith ends when you have obtained, the thing you are hoping for... for why does one still hope for what he sees?
Faith is the substance of the thing hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1
Peter encourages us to endure the testing of our faith, so that we may receive the end result of that faith, at the revelation of Jesus Christ, which is the salvation of our soul.
6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9
For now we are saved by faith.
We will continue to be saved by faith, if we continue in the faith
We will receive the salvation we are hoping for, when Jesus returns, if we have ket the faith, and held fast to the word of salvation we first heard, otherwise we believed in vain.
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:27-28
JLB
chessman
Member
Of course we do. "He saved us"! We didn't save ourselves. We even have the renewing proved by the Holy Spirit (not us) to ensure it. So a Hope that is according to His Mercy and His Grace is what we have. Just as Paul said. You conveniently left out over half of Paul's sentence.
Then by default, you must admit that you do not have eternal life, yet, if you have the hope of eternal life.
... for why does one still hope for what he sees?
- Eternal life is received at the end of a fruitful life of holiness.
- Eternal life is given to those who by patient continuance in doing good.
Those who live immoral, disobedient lives can expect to receive the indignation and wrath of God, like the biblical example of Judas Iscariot, who believed for a while, then fell by transgression.
JLB
Last edited:
chessman
Member
By default??? When's the last time the God of the Bible defaulted on one of His promises.
1 John 2:25 (NKJV) And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.
2 Corinthians 1:20-22 (NKJV) For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us. Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
You must be thinking we are not saved and established by God when the very sentence of Paul that you chopped off, says that we are "saved". Which according to this site means dwelling in Heaven forever.
Titus 1:1-3 (NKJV) Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began, but has in due time manifested His word through preaching, which was committed to to me according to the commandment of God our Savior;
Or you are thinking of some other god. One that can lie.
Yep. Good thing we have received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, now. Poured out on us abundantly. Something Judas never received.
Titus 3:4-7 (NKJV) But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Now that's a faithful saying,
Last edited:
By default, which is the lack, or absence, of the thing you are hoping for, you are waiting for it, with perseverance.
But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:25
If we have the hope of eternal life; the hope of salvation, then we obviously do not have the salvation we are hoping for, since we hope for the thing we do not see.
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1
If you have faith in Jesus Christ, for salvation, then by default [the absence of the reality of the thing you are hoping for], you are waiting to receive the salvation of your soul, and the redemption of your body, when He returns.
Now, we have a living, breathing, moment by moment, relationship with Him, because His Spirit dwells within us, and we are one Spirit with Him, even though we do not see Him.
And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:27-28
... eagerly wait for Him.
22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:22-25
...But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9
... receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.
JLB
Yes, we have the hope of eternal life.
If your grace teaches you something other than: denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age... then you might consider the fact that it's not the grace of God.
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.
15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you. Titus 2:11-15
JLB
I said this:
"That's a great question. And one that a certain jailer from Philippi asked Paul. The answer is found in Acts 16:31 - They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”"
Col 1:12 - and giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light.
How do you suppose one gets qualified by the Father? By having His life, which is eternal life, the ONLY WAY to live with Him in eternity.
So, how do we receive eternal life? Jesus said by believing in Him, per John 3:15, 16, 5:24, 6:40 and 11:25-26.
And since eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23) and God's gifts are irrevocable, therefore, I am unmovably convinced that eternal life is irrevocable. With the Scripture to back that up.
"That's a great question. And one that a certain jailer from Philippi asked Paul. The answer is found in Acts 16:31 - They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”"
Great question! I believe what the Bible says; that eternal life is a gift of God for those who believe, and that God's gifts are irrevocable.
Let's consider what Scripture says about being qualified:
Col 1:12 - and giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light.
How do you suppose one gets qualified by the Father? By having His life, which is eternal life, the ONLY WAY to live with Him in eternity.
So, how do we receive eternal life? Jesus said by believing in Him, per John 3:15, 16, 5:24, 6:40 and 11:25-26.
And since eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23) and God's gifts are irrevocable, therefore, I am unmovably convinced that eternal life is irrevocable. With the Scripture to back that up.
When have any of my opinions not been supported by Scripture? Please cite a few, just for consistency.
Wasn't what I posted to you in #804 good enough? It was Scripture, btw.
So, I'll refresh your memory about what the BIBLE (not the Didache) says about Jesus and grace:
Jesus is the very epitome of grace.
Luke 2:40 - And the child grew and became strong; he was filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was on him.
John 1:14 - The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 1:16 - Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given.
John 1:17 - For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ
Acts 4:33 - With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all
Acts 6:8 - Now Stephen, a man full of God’s grace and power, performed great wonders and signs among the people.
Acts 11:23 - When he arrived and saw what the grace of God had done, he was glad and encouraged them all to remain true to the Lord with all their hearts.
Acts 13:43 - When the congregation was dismissed, many of the Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who talked with them and urged them to continue in the grace of God.
Acts 14:26 - From Attalia they sailed back to Antioch, where they had been committed to the grace of God for the work they had now completed.
Acts 15:11 - No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”
Acts 15:40 - but Paul chose Silas and left, commended by the believers to the grace of the Lord.
Thank you for agreeing with my position. Jesus taught that we HAVE obtained eternal life WHEN we believe, in John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me HAS eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
I've never seen any explanation about your views in light of what Jesus taught in John 5:24. They are in conflict. Please advise.
How about playing by the forum rules? Back up your opinions with Scripture. That has not happened yet.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
chessman said: ↑
Of course we do.
So, what Paul really taught is that NO ONE will ever receive eternal life by continuing to do good.
What did Paul mean in 1 Tim 1:16 - But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.
If there were, you'd have a point.
Of course we do.
Then BY DEFAULT, you must admit that Jesus was WRONG in John 5:24.
The context is about eternity. Until we physically die, we only hope for what we will experience in eternity.
This would mean that Jesus was wrong in John 5:24 then. Is that your position? Please advise.
So then, both Paul and Jesus taught false doctrine. Because both Paul and Jesus taught that one is saved and HAS eternal life by faith in Jesus Christ. Though Paul did write Rom 2:6-8, which is distorted by some, he then in the SAME LETTER wrote that no one is justified by keeping the Law (Rom 3:20), and that "there is none that does good" in the same chapter.
So, what Paul really taught is that NO ONE will ever receive eternal life by continuing to do good.
What did Paul mean in 1 Tim 1:16 - But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.
Of course they can expect to receive God's wrath. Even His own children. But that will not include loss of salvation. Because there are no verses that say such a thing.
If there were, you'd have a point.