Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while.

[FreeGrace]

However, being a son of God, does not prevent you from being cast down to hell, like the sons of God, the angels who sinned during the days of Noah, and Lucifer, who became Satan.

4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 2 Peter 2:4
Case Closed.
JLB

No one has provided ANY verses that equate being a son of God through faith in Christ with angels, who are called sons of God.

Gal 3:26 - So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith

Please show any verse where angels are sons by means of faith. Thats the ONLY kind of "son" or "child" that I'm referring to.

Your view is just a fruit salad, mixing apples and oranges.

So, being a son of God through faith in Christ means that one cannot and will not ever be cast into hell. Why not? Because of what Jesus promised those to whom He gives eternal life:
John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Notice, please, that there are no conditions for those have been given eternal life for not perishing.

According to your views, the verse should have said:
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, as long as they continue in faith and repent after every sin; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

The difference between what Jesus promised and your views are quite stark.

When a person HAS eternal life, he WILL NEVER PERISH. Jn 3:16, 10:28.

Where are the verses about losing eternal life? There aren't any. All the verses used to support such a view MUST be assumed to be about loss of eternal life. Because none say that eternal life can or will be lost, for any reason.

 

[JohnDB]

No one has provided ANY verses that equate being a son of God through faith in Christ with angels, who are called sons of God.

Gal 3:26 - So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith

Please show any verse where angels are sons by means of faith. Thats the ONLY kind of "son" or "child" that I'm referring to.

Your view is just a fruit salad, mixing apples and oranges.

So, being a son of God through faith in Christ means that one cannot and will not ever be cast into hell. Why not? Because of what Jesus promised those to whom He gives eternal life:
John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Notice, please, that there are no conditions for those have been given eternal life for not perishing.

According to your views, the verse should have said:
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, as long as they continue in faith and repent after every sin; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

The difference between what Jesus promised and your views are quite stark.

When a person HAS eternal life, he WILL NEVER PERISH. Jn 3:16, 10:28.

Where are the verses about losing eternal life? There aren't any. All the verses used to support such a view MUST be assumed to be about loss of eternal life. Because none say that eternal life can or will be lost, for any reason.

John 1:12

 

[FreeGrace]

Here is something that I found that seems relevant but my expertise lacks so I'll throw it out there for discussion. Maybe I will learn something.

"Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them." Job 1:6 NKJV

As I read this, Satan is a son of God. Satan certainly is not in fellowship with God but is he saved?

He cannot be, because Revelation prophesy tells us that he will spend eternity in the lake of fire.

The Bible calls angels "sons of God". Fine. But believers in Jesus Christ are called His children by means of faith, very UNLIKE that of angels.

To compare angels as "sons of God" with believers as "children/sons of God" is an error.

Believers are born into God's family, per Jn 1:12-13 -
12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

No angel is ever said to be "born of God". They were created, per Ezek 28:15 - You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you.

Even Adam is said to be a "son of God", as he was also created by God, per Luke 3:38 - the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

So, there are "sons of God" who were created, and sons of God who were BORN AGAIN. Adam didn't become a son of God by being born again. Neither was Satan.

So, it's just disingenuous to try to equate the 2 very different categories.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"No one has provided ANY verses that equate being a son of God through faith in Christ with angels, who are called sons of God."

John 1:12

This verse does not equate being a son of God through faith in Christ with angels.

Are there any verses that teach that any angels have become sons/children of God through faith in Christ? No. That was my point.

Trying to equate those who believe in Christ and become sons/children of God with angels, who were created as "sons of God" isn't correct.

There is no comparison, nor equality.

 

[WIP]

Does that scripture state that Satan is a son of God? Nope. It says the sons of God came. Point 1. And that Satan was among them. Point 2. But it does not follow that Satan was a son of God.

It doesn't say he wasn't either. That statement could just as easily be identifying one of the sons in particular, ergo, Satan.

Suppose I say that the MN Vikings arrived at Lambeau Field and Adrian Peterson was also among them. Does that mean that Adrian is not a member of the team or does it specifically call to attention that Adrian in particular was also with them?

 

[smaller]

It doesn't say he wasn't either. That statement could just as easily be identifying one of the sons in particular, ergo, Satan.

Suppose I say that the MN Vikings arrived at Lambeau Field and Adrian Peterson was also among them. Does that mean that Adrian is not a member of the team or does it specifically call to attention that Adrian in particular was also with them?

As stated prior, no specifics means entirely inferred by the readers mind.

 

[GodsGrace]

Here is something that I found that seems relevant but my expertise lacks so I'll throw it out there for discussion. Maybe I will learn something.

"Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them." Job 1:6 NKJV

As I read this, Satan is a son of God. Satan certainly is not in fellowship with God but is he saved?

WIP,
Satan is not a son of God.
Men are sons of God.
Angels are created beings of which one third of them were cast out of heaven and out of the government of God because they rebelled against Him.
Ezekiel 28:12-15
Isaiah 14:12-17

The angels who remained in heaven with God would, in all likelyhood, be very adverse to sinning. It's correct to say that man can sin, but God's angels cannot.

Satan could not be saved. He is by far the most lost creature of all and would like to see us follow in his footsteps.
He is lost because He rebelled against God, just as lost humans do.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Romans 10:9-11
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” [NIV]

Judas was put to shame. Judas did not endure to the end. Judas is not one of those that the Father gave to the Son that Jesus had lost none of ... Judas was always the exception. (Except the son of perdition ... But one of you is a devil ... Not all of you are clean ...).

The OP suggests that Judas was saved for a while, but there is no evidence of the fruit in Judas life or the belief of Romans 10 to suggest that Judas was saved. That is the 'belief' that I see lacking. What sort of 'belief' inspires a man to follow Jesus for a season stealing from the purse, looking for an opportunity to betray him, betray the Christ and commit suicide as the evidence of this transformed life? It sounds like the dead faith James speaks about or the 'belief' one would expect of a child of the devil ... a false Apostle and a wolf in sheep clothing. David sinned greatly and repented, running back to the feet of God for forgiveness. Peter failed and repented, returning to the feet of Jesus. Where is a proclamation of faith by Judas? Where is an act of faith by Judas? The best we have is general statements that he was empowered along with the other Apostles ... given love and every opportunity ... which only makes his betrayal more damnable and more an indication of "one of you is a devil" (as Jesus said of Judas in correction to Peter's claim that all twelve believed).

So the short answer, in summary, is that Judas did not believe in his heart unto righteousness. Whatever he believed, it did not lead to trust in Jesus Christ.

Your above post is in answer to this question of mine:

wondering said: ↑

You repeat that Judas did not believe.
What exactly did he not believe?
Please expound.

Your reply is that Judas did not confess with his mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord,
that he did not believe with in his heart that God raised Him from the dead,
and thus this did not make Judas a believer.

But which of the 12 Apostels DID do this? If you remeber, only Peter recognized Jesus as the Christ or Messiah.
Also, Jesus had not resurrected yet, so we cannot say that Judas did not believe this. It had not happened yet and none of the other Apostles knew or understood that this was to happen.
Mathew 16:16

So this belief was lacking in all of the Apostles, except Peter.

A life transformed is a good point. Was Judas' life transformed?
Why would he leave his former life to follow Jesus if he did not have a belief in Him?
Would that belief not have to be salvific belief for Judas abandon everything?
You state that he was given love. This is important. Why would Jesus have given him love if He knew from the beginning that Judas would be the son of perditiion? Remember that as a man, Jesus was not privey to all knowledge that He might have had as when He was totally God - in heaven.

Perhaps Judas lost trust in Jesus when he realized that He was not going to bring about peace in Israel the way Judas would have wanted? When he lost this trust, that would be when he lost salvfic belief.

Wondering

 

[MarkT]

Judas had a Shepherd, His name is Jesus.

Judas was a disciple of Jesus, being one of His sheep.




It proves Judas was one of Jesus sheep, who fell away, and was lost.



JLB

Judas was differentiated from the other apostles by Jesus himself - Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” John 6:70

So just because Peter said, 'we have believed' in John 6:69, that doesn't mean Judas believed. What applies to Judas applies to Judas alone. If Judas was a devil, that doesn't mean the others were devils, and vice versa, If the others were his sheep, that doesn't mean Judas was his sheep.

You say Judas fell away. Are those who fall away devils? I don't recall Jesus saying if a man falls away, he is a devil.

First he is a sheep, then he is a devil?

 

[atpollard]

Your above post is in answer to this question of mine:

wondering said: ↑

You repeat that Judas did not believe.
What exactly did he not believe?
Please expound.

Your reply is that Judas did not confess with his mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord,
that he did not believe with in his heart that God raised Him from the dead,
and thus this did not make Judas a believer.

But which of the 12 Apostels DID do this? If you remeber, only Peter recognized Jesus as the Christ or Messiah.
Also, Jesus had not resurrected yet, so we cannot say that Judas did not believe this. It had not happened yet and none of the other Apostles knew or understood that this was to happen.
Mathew 16:16

So this belief was lacking in all of the Apostles, except Peter.

A life transformed is a good point. Was Judas' life transformed?
Why would he leave his former life to follow Jesus if he did not have a belief in Him?
Would that belief not have to be salvific belief for Judas abandon everything?
You state that he was given love. This is important. Why would Jesus have given him love if He knew from the beginning that Judas would be the son of perditiion? Remember that as a man, Jesus was not privey to all knowledge that He might have had as when He was totally God - in heaven.

Perhaps Judas lost trust in Jesus when he realized that He was not going to bring about peace in Israel the way Judas would have wanted? When he lost this trust, that would be when he lost salvfic belief.

Wondering

Let's make this simple. Here are three events from scripture involving Jesus drawing a distinction between 11 of the 12 apostles and 1 of the 12 apostles:


John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. [NKJV]

Eleven were kept, but the son of perdition was lost. Judas was not merely one who wandered away for a while like a lost sheep or a prodigal son, Jesus called him the son of perdition (it means damnation). Judas is an apostle and the son of damnation. (I didn't say so, Jesus says so.)


John 6:68-71
68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 “Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve. [NKJV]

Peter claimed 'we believe' and Jesus immediately corrects him with not merely a simple 'one of you has some doubts' or 'one of you will not continue in your belief' but a direct irrefutable diametric opposition ... 'one of you is a devil'. According to Jesus, not only did Judas not believe that 'Jesus was the Christ, Son of the living God' but Judas, one of the 12, was 'a devil' (Jesus words, not mine).


John 13:10-11
10 Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.” 11 For He knew who would betray Him; therefore He said, “You are not all clean.”

Jesus declares eleven of the apostles 'clean', and immediately clarifies that one of the apostles (Judas) was 'not clean.'

Three times Jesus spoke of the apostles and called special attention to the fact that there were eleven who were the same (kept, believed, clean) and Judas who was different (son of damnation, a devil, not clean).

I have no idea what Judas believed, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that it was probably not the same as what the other eleven apostles believed and it was NOT 'You are the Christ, Son of the Living God' as Peter proclaimed. People keep making the assumption that Judas was just like the other apostles, while Jesus keeps pointing out that Judas was NOT like the other apostles. I choose to believe Jesus' explicit declarations over assumptions about the word 'apostle'.

 

[atpollard]

A life transformed is a good point. Was Judas' life transformed?
Why would he leave his former life to follow Jesus if he did not have a belief in Him?
Would that belief not have to be salvific belief for Judas abandon everything?
You state that he was given love. This is important. Why would Jesus have given him love if He knew from the beginning that Judas would be the son of perditiion? Remember that as a man, Jesus was not privey to all knowledge that He might have had as when He was totally God - in heaven.

John 12:6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor, but because he was a thief, and had the money box; and he used to take what was put in it. [NKJV]

We have enough corruption in modern ministry to find it not unimaginable that Judas interest in Jesus ministry was primarily financial. He was always a thief ... no change of heart, his final act of betrayal was for 30 pieces of silver.

Why would Jesus give him love?

Matthew 5:44 “But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, [NKJV]

 

[Jim Parker]

"Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them." Job 1:6 NKJV

As I read this, Satan is a son of God.

Read it again.
It says "Satan also came among them."
It did not say, Satan is also one of them."

 

[GodsGrace]

John 12:6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor, but because he was a thief, and had the money box; and he used to take what was put in it. [NKJV]

We have enough corruption in modern ministry to find it not unimaginable that Judas interest in Jesus ministry was primarily financial. He was always a thief ... no change of heart, his final act of betrayal was for 30 pieces of silver.

Why would Jesus give him love?

Matthew 5:44 “But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, [NKJV]

A thought has come to mind, but tomorrow.

 

[dirtfarmer]

dirtfarmer here

Judas was not saved because he believed in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. I know this because Christ had not yet been crucified. So, how was Judas saved?

 

[GodsGrace]

dirtfarmer here

Judas was not saved because he believed in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. I know this because Christ had not yet been crucified. So, how was Judas saved?

Hi Dirtfarmer,
I said the above in post no. 910.
But then this would mean that the other Apostles weren't saved either. So we have to discard this reason.
Right?
Please see my next reply to Atpollard and could you comment, please.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Let's make this simple. Here are three events from scripture involving Jesus drawing a distinction between 11 of the 12 apostles and 1 of the 12 apostles:


John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. [NKJV]

Eleven were kept, but the son of perdition was lost. Judas was not merely one who wandered away for a while like a lost sheep or a prodigal son, Jesus called him the son of perdition (it means damnation). Judas is an apostle and the son of damnation. (I didn't say so, Jesus says so.)


John 6:68-71
68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 “Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve. [NKJV]

Peter claimed 'we believe' and Jesus immediately corrects him with not merely a simple 'one of you has some doubts' or 'one of you will not continue in your belief' but a direct irrefutable diametric opposition ... 'one of you is a devil'. According to Jesus, not only did Judas not believe that 'Jesus was the Christ, Son of the living God' but Judas, one of the 12, was 'a devil' (Jesus words, not mine).


John 13:10-11
10 Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.” 11 For He knew who would betray Him; therefore He said, “You are not all clean.”

Jesus declares eleven of the apostles 'clean', and immediately clarifies that one of the apostles (Judas) was 'not clean.'

Three times Jesus spoke of the apostles and called special attention to the fact that there were eleven who were the same (kept, believed, clean) and Judas who was different (son of damnation, a devil, not clean).

I have no idea what Judas believed, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that it was probably not the same as what the other eleven apostles believed and it was NOT 'You are the Christ, Son of the Living God' as Peter proclaimed. People keep making the assumption that Judas was just like the other apostles, while Jesus keeps pointing out that Judas was NOT like the other apostles. I choose to believe Jesus' explicit declarations over assumptions about the word 'apostle'.

Atpollard,
Your reasoning above is good, but here's the problem I have with it.

You cite three scriptures:
John 17:12
John 6:68-71
John 13:10-11

All three come after JLB's scripture regarding the annointing of the 12.
Mathew 10:1-8
Mark 3:13-15

Jesus was 100% man and 100% God.

As a man, He did not know all that would transpire.
My question is. Why would Jesus have annointed Judas along with the other 11 Apostles to heal, preach, etc. when He sent the 12 out?

Even assuming He could not have known the future at that point, would Jesus not have known, just from normal signs, whether or not Judas was saved and spiritually in tune with Him?

If Jesus couldn't tell who was saved, how could WE ever declare one to be saved or lost?
Jesus must surely have known more than we know.

This would make it seem to me that Judas was saved at the beginning of Jesus' ministry and then it became more clear to Jesus that Judas would betray Him and perhaps the whole plan became more apparent to the Lord.

Wondering

 

[chessman]

Premise 1:
Judas (like all other humans) was born lost, having been born with a sinful nature.
Romans 3:10, Romans 3:23

Judas demonstrated his lost, sinful nature throughout his years of being a disciple (beginning, middle and end) by being a thief, stealing money from the disciples' money bag and betraying Jesus. Jesus Himself declares Judas' unbelief and betrayal very early in His ministry and that the 11 were already clean but Judas was not clean.
John 6:64, John 12:6, Matt 26:14-16, John 13:10-11

Premise 2:
Judas (like everyone else) could have only been "saved", in-spite of his sinful nature, by "a personal faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and not by any human merit or performance" (like 3+ years of intense/personal discipleship training).
Judas never had a personal faith in Christ's death and resurrection.
John 3:16, Romans 5:8-9, Ephesians 2:8-10, Titus 3:5, CFNet's SoF


Premise 3:
Judas was never born again by the Holy Spirit of God (a requirement of everyone who is a genuine believer) as the other 11 were after Jesus' death and resurrection.
Acts 2:4, I Corinthians 12:12-13, Galatians 5:22-23, Ephesians 4:8-12, CFNet's SoF

Conclusion:
Judas was NOT "saved for a while".

Simple, Biblical, logical and per this site's SoF.

 

[FreeGrace]

dirtfarmer here

Judas was not saved because he believed in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. I know this because Christ had not yet been crucified. So, how was Judas saved?

He wasn't. That simple. Post #912 by atpollard quite eloquently proves that Judas never believed, was never saved, and was always different than the other 12 disciples.

 

[GodsGrace]

Premise 1:
Judas (like all other humans) was born lost, having been born with a sinful nature.
Romans 3:10, Romans 3:23

Judas demonstrated his lost, sinful nature throughout his years of being a disciple (beginning, middle and end) by being a thief, stealing money from the disciples' money bag and betraying Jesus. Jesus Himself declares Judas' unbelief and betrayal very early in His ministry and that the 11 were already clean but Judas was not clean.
John 6:64, John 12:6, Matt 26:14-16, John 13:10-11

Premise 2:
Judas (like everyone else) could have only been "saved", in-spite of his sinful nature, by "a personal faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and not by any human merit or performance" (like 3+ years of intense/personal discipleship training).
Judas never had a personal faith in Christ's death and resurrection.
John 3:16, Romans 5:8-9, Ephesians 2:8-10, Titus 3:5, CFNet's SoF


Premise 3:
Judas was never born again by the Holy Spirit of God (a requirement of everyone who is a genuine believer) as the other 11 were after Jesus' death and resurrection.
Acts 2:4, I Corinthians 12:12-13, Galatians 5:22-23, Ephesians 4:8-12, CFNet's SoF

Conclusion:
Judas was NOT "saved for a while".

Simple, Biblical, logical and per this site's SoF.

Chessman,
I'm not sure this is worth continuing - I usually don't.
But you state so much that is not reasonable, so here goes:

1. 100% correct. The first paragraph.
The second paragraph is incorrect.
NONE of the apostles were saved by their belief in a resurrected Christ since He had not died yet. So are you saying that NONE of the apostles were saved??? This is incorrect. Even in the old testament people were saved.
Hebrews 11 They were saved by faith. Faith always saved. Even BEFORE Jesus died to atone for our sins.

Jesus Himself did not declare Judas' unsaved condition early on in His ministry.
This is the whole point of my reply to Atpollard.
ALL the scriptures you state that come from the gospels is AFTER Jesus declared all of the apostles annointed to do His work of preaching and healing.

At some point, Jesus did realize Judas would betray Him, but NOT at the time frame which you state.

2. As already stated at point 1, then NONE of the Apostles would have been saved if they'd died before Jesus was crucified, and this is simply not true.

3. Of course not! He committed suicide. He was lost in the end. This is JLB's entire point.

And once again I do wish you'd explain the difference between a believer and a genuine believer.

Also, you keep bringing up this forum's Statement of Faith.
I happen to agree with it, except for maybe one doctrine.
BUT, that does not mean I cannot disagree. Are you saying that only persons who agree with the SOF can be on this forum?? Why do you continue to use the SOF as a defense for yourself?? It is of no help to you, only biblical references can help you (or me).

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

He wasn't. That simple. Post #912 by atpollard quite eloquently proves that Judas never believed, was never saved, and was always different than the other 12 disciples.

How could JESUS, our LORD AND SAVIOR, not have know Judas was NEVER saved???
Why would Jesus have annointed him and sent him out with the other 11 if he wasn't saved?
Did Jesus make a mistake??

Wondering